Driving standards

[GrumpyPenguin]

19 minutes ago, jbqfc said:

Drivers been abusive to road workers 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-68633010

 

 

John 

During the winter months I drive a Gritter/Snowplough - I'm out all hours/work long shifts & you will be surprised at the abuse I get.

 

However, I do sometimes chuckle at the people that "argue" or get in the way of the impressive beast - it's a 26 tonne 6 x 6 Merc & that's without the plough on !

[kevinlms]

Fun and games on the Warburton Highway near me today.
They are resurfacing by the oil and gravel method.
One of the gravel trucks, facing the wrong way, had gone into the ditch on the side and the RHS was hard up against the rock wall.
The LHS rear wheels are in the air, so a tow truck job.

 

The signs did warn of possible '15 minute delays', but I suspect this wasn't what they had in mind!

 

All gone when I came back a couple of hours later, the traffic was slowly passing by.

[Jol Wilkinson]

"Road rage" is nothing new and seems to have existed since cars became relatively commonplace. For some (many?) a car is an extension of their home and any invasion of their "space" causes annoyance.

 

Given the inadequacy of our road network, especially when accidents occur or roadworks are taking place, frustration when trying to make a journey in reasonable time is very likely to happen. Add to that the general lack of consideration or others in society today, and unpleasant, disagreeable behaviour is likely to happen, however reprehensible.

 

Yesterday we spent 3-3/4 hours on a journey which should have taken 2-1/4 hours.That was down to an accident and long term roadworks on the A14. The only route to avoid the accident area (which took at least eight hours to clear up) became heavily congested and we suffered several good (bad) examples of HGV "bullying".

[Reorte]

Just now, Jol Wilkinson said:

"Road rage" is nothing new and seems to have existed since cars became relatively commonplace. For some (many?) a car is an extension of their home and any invasion of their "space" causes annoyance.

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it was common with horses and carts.

[kevinlms]

44 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it was common with horses and carts.

Well, that is exactly why they started the London Underground, to avoid surface congestion - which was way before any form of motorised road vehicles.

[Coldgunner]

Didn't they predict that London would be 8ft deep in horse s*** if a solution was not found?

[TheQ]

I'm not surprised we have road rage at road works, they've closed the tarmac road to this area to dig a hole, the three alternative routes are, 

A Boat, Byway Open to All Traffic, which is hard mud and sand today ( it's not raining) with ruts and potholes over a foot deep.

A Restricted single track byway that is soft mud, with water in the potholes. Tractor ruts a foot to 18 inches deep.

A Restricted single track byway that has some tarmac, grass down the middle, sand covering some parts, water over other bits. Then deep ditches each side at another point , then another section where the walls of houses form the edge of the road, high fences the other and it's not wide enough for an artic.

[TheQ]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it was common with horses and carts.

It was certainly the case with horses, railway carts, carriages and locomotives on the Stockton and Darlington 

[GrumpyPenguin]

4 hours ago, TheQ said:

I'm not surprised we have road rage at road works, they've closed the tarmac road to this area to dig a hole, the three alternative routes are,

Whatever the reasons it's not the fault of the guys doing the works - they are "planned" by people on higher pay grades that are never at the sharp end.

 

There is no reason to take it out on the workers (who tend to be pretty fit physically) - anyway, it's only a matter of time before one of them loses it and someone gets a slap round the face with a shovel or ends up in A & E with a pickaxe embedded in his back.

[SM42]

I think the reason people get frustrated at road works is the apparent lack of proper planning for traffic. 

 

Diversions that merge into other diversions so no-one knows which route is which 

 

Diversion signs that give up after a couple of junctions,

 

Last minute beyond point of no return road closures ( happened to me on the M5 last week when I found my junction was closed when I got to it. No chance to take the short alternative route, just a lengthy drive in the wrong direction) 

 

Poorly planned or phased temporary lights that cause miles of traffic that could be eased with a bit more thought for peak traffic directions

 

Closures going in an hour or more before advertised. 

 

Lane closures 24/7 but no 24/7 works. 

 

Or my favourite, two sets of temporary lights in a short distance so one set's queue blocks the other and vice versa. 

 

Unfortunately it's the guys on the ground that get the anger as they are visible, not the ones who plan the mess.  

 

It can be very difficult to be patient sometimes. 

 

However that is no excuse to threaten or attack those going about their work. 

 

The most common I see is road closures being ignored as people think they will be able to get through anyway 

Just wish they would dig a 2 ft wide trench across the road just to make sure. 

 

Andy

 

Edited March 27 by SM42

[SM42]

Had the dubious pleasure yesterday of following a car being driven at what can only be described as an average of 2kph down a one way circuit which was single Lane

 

It then inexplicably stopped whilst the driver was seemingly distracted by something at the side of the road. 

 

It didn't get any faster when we got off the one way bit, but too much oncoming  traffic and junctions to safely overtake. 

 

I felt I aged a bit quicker yesterday. 

 

Andy

[johnofwessex]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-68661837

 

I wonder if more 'force' was used to deal with 'fail to stops' it might both reduce the numbers and save lives?

[Deeps]

8 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

I wonder if more 'force' was used to deal with 'fail to stops' it might both reduce the numbers and save lives?

This can be a very emotive subject, and I’m sure there will be justification in attempting to resolve such events without using excessive force, but I tend to agree.

 

I used to enjoy watching TV programmes featuring Traffic Cops etc. but became frustrated with them when it was revealed that the scum bags, if caught, subsequently received ridiculously minimal sentences, sometimes just suspended sentences and community service. Whatever the judgement it doesn’t seem to stop the perpetrators doing the same thing again asap. I cannot watch these programmes now.

 

Should police vehicles be equipped with RPG’s, to ‘nip it in the bud’ early? Discuss.

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Deeps said:

This can be a very emotive subject, and I’m sure there will be justification in attempting to resolve such events without using excessive force, but I tend to agree.

 

I used to enjoy watching TV programmes featuring Traffic Cops etc. but became frustrated with them when it was revealed that the scum bags, if caught, subsequently received ridiculously minimal sentences, sometimes just suspended sentences and community service. Whatever the judgement it doesn’t seem to stop the perpetrators doing the same thing again asap. I cannot watch these programmes now.

 

Should police vehicles be equipped with RPG’s, to ‘nip it in the bud’ early? Discuss.

Here in Suffolk we seem to have insufficient police to patrol the streets and roads, so the likelihood of getting caught is slight.

 

There seems also to be a move away from giving prison sentences (overcrowding, etc.) so perhaps the answer would be to confiscate their vehicle, motorcycle or w.h.y. and hit them where it hurts.

[johnofwessex]

There are a lot of difficulties but lets put it in some sort of context

 

In 2023 there were 590 homicides and 1633 traffic fatalities so you are about 2.75 times more likley to die in a Traffic Incident than be murdered.

 

The risks posed by 'unlicensec/untaxed etc' drivers are several orders of magnitude greater than 'average'

 

May I suggest

 

1. A concerted push to get untaxed/insured/MOT'd vehicles off the road.

2. AS far as is possible to do this by removing vehicles when they are 'parked' in the way the DVLA do now, I would suggest that this should include powers to do this 'off road' and tow rather than clamp vehicles.

3. To  do vehicle stops in a way that makes it more difficult for drivers to attempt to fail to stop, eg Road Blocks, Police Cars patrolling in groups.

4. If a driver does attempt to 'escape' chase fewer vehicles BUT deploy more resources to stop them eg Air Support, more vehicles etc, and

5. Treat 'failed to stop' as armed which they are.  That means  use of armed officers both to stop moving vehicles and control stopped ones, so if you dont stop or attempt to drive off when you have been stopped you will be shot at.  I realise that it wont always be possible either to get armed officers into place OR fire and the effect it has on officers who may have to open fire on vehicles.

6. Treat offenders when arrested in the same was as armed offenders so no bail, longer jail sentences etc

[Sidecar Racer]

12 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-68661837

 

I wonder if more 'force' was used to deal with 'fail to stops' it might both reduce the numbers and save lives?

 

 And after each stop the damaged police vehicles need expensive repairs or in a bad case replacement ,

say 3 at a couple of thousand for repair and no write offs , if this happens several times in a year that

all comes out of the budget and not insurance , so next year the police part of your council tax has to

be raised cue howls of outrage about how ' we never see a policeman ' .

 

So do you still want them to play dodgems with a several £30,000 or more cars ??????

 

 Written as someone who worked for the police for 34 years as a mechanic , so I've seen it from inside .

 

 

 

Edited March 28 by Sidecar Racer

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Here in Suffolk we seem to have insufficient police to patrol the streets and roads, so the likelihood of getting caught is slight.

 

There seems also to be a move away from giving prison sentences (overcrowding, etc.) so perhaps the answer would be to confiscate their vehicle, motorcycle or w.h.y. and hit them where it hurts.

The vehicle involved in the incident mentioned above was stolen so confiscation would not apply. Some people drive around in cheap bangers without bothering with tax, insurance and MoT and to whom the vehicle being seized and crushed is an acceptable risk when it is worth far less than what it would cost to insure. Also those sort of people are unlikely to have a licence or are banned from driving.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

There are a lot of difficulties but lets put it in some sort of context

 

In 2023 there were 590 homicides and 1633 traffic fatalities so you are about 2.75 times more likley to die in a Traffic Incident than be murdered.

 

 

5. Treat 'failed to stop' as armed which they are.  That means  use of armed officers both to stop moving vehicles and control stopped ones, so if you dont stop or attempt to drive off when you have been stopped you will be shot at.  I realise that it wont always be possible either to get armed officers into place OR fire and the effect it has on officers who may have to open fire on vehicles.

 

Have you been watching American YouTube where police try to shoot out the tyres from moving police vehicles?

 

I would have thought that the last thing you want is stolen (aren't they always) vehicles, with a driver who has been shot at the wheel = total insanity! Your 'solution' is potentially worse than the crime.

[geoffers]

5 hours ago, Deeps said:

Should police vehicles be equipped with RPG’s, to ‘nip it in the bud’ early? Discuss.

For several years I worked with "operational" Army Air Corps AH64 Apache helicopters. The airbase also hosted a police helicopter unit (Eurocopter EC135). The police pilots and crew were known to say they wished they sometimes had an Apache. to play with.

 

On a different subject regarding road works etc. I find it difficult on the odd occasion on a narrow road inhabited with plentiful parked vehicles (usually legally) to judge which are parked and which are queueing especially when several of the parked and queueing vehicles are white vans. Got a mouthful yesterday in the Cambridgeshire Fens from a "white van man" in such a scenario. 

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, geoffers said:

On a different subject regarding road works etc. I find it difficult on the odd occasion on a narrow road inhabited with plentiful parked vehicles (usually legally) to judge which are parked and which are queueing especially when several of the parked and queueing vehicles are white vans. Got a mouthful yesterday in the Cambridgeshire Fens from a "white van man" in such a scenario. 

I had an embarrassing moment once when I stopped behind a queue of cars at the lights and wondered why my lane was taking so long to get moving, when the one next to me was going. I eventually spotted that there was no-one in the cars in front of me...

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

 And after each stop the damaged police vehicles need expensive repairs or in a bad case replacement ,

say 3 at a couple of thousand for repair and no write offs , if this happens several times in a year that

all comes out of the budget and not insurance , so next year the police part of your council tax has to

be raised cue howls of outrage about how ' we never see a policeman ' .

 

So do you still want them to play dodgems with a several £30,000 or more cars ??????

 

 Written as someone who worked for the police for 34 years as a mechanic , so I've seen it from inside .

 

 

 

 

My suggestion is to attempt to reduce the number of chases because of the risk they pose to the public 

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Have you been watching American YouTube where police try to shoot out the tyres from moving police vehicles?

 

I would have thought that the last thing you want is stolen (aren't they always) vehicles, with a driver who has been shot at the wheel = total insanity! Your 'solution' is potentially worse than the crime.

 

While there would be oportunities to shoot at moving vehicles, the Cambridge example being a case to point I suggest that the main use of guns would be to persuade the driver to turn the engine off and get out nicely rather than attempt to ram Police Officers/the public/vehicles in an attempt to get away

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

While there would be oportunities to shoot at moving vehicles, the Cambridge example being a case to point I suggest that the main use of guns would be to persuade the driver to turn the engine off and get out nicely rather than attempt to ram Police Officers/the public/vehicles in an attempt to get away

Still sounds like a 'Wild West' approach to me!

 

Australian police are regulary armed, but I do hope they never resort to such dubious tactics.

[SM42]

Another surprisingly slow Pole out today. 

 

I know it's a 50kph limit on the slip road cos its bendy and I can accept 35 kph as being suitably cautious on the tight bendy bits, but not when you join the motorway ( limit 120kph)

 

Andy

[johnofwessex]

11 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The vehicle involved in the incident mentioned above was stolen so confiscation would not apply. Some people drive around in cheap bangers without bothering with tax, insurance and MoT and to whom the vehicle being seized and crushed is an acceptable risk when it is worth far less than what it would cost to insure. Also those sort of people are unlikely to have a licence or are banned from driving.

 

There are other things that could be siezed and crushed...............