Weymouth Tramway Heritage Campaign

[peter220950]

  I am very surprised - I remember all the protests about cyclists getting stuck, and high heels breaking. The whole area has changed so much since I was 'local' but I cannot see ttitudes having changed that much. Getting a true handle on the numbers of those "in favour" or "supportive" is going to be near impossible. I do like the idea so would be in the category - I just do not believe it to be practical or even possible.

 

Grief, is the old Dorset Echo still in existence? Went on a school trip round their offices in about 1958/9!

Still in existence, and living proof that not all are quite so keen to see it working

 

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/9306448._Danger__Weymouth_quayside_tracks_to_be_filled/?ref=arc

[Jwnewall]

@Kenton I have only got so far as social media, think of all the people who don't have Facebook.

[Jwnewall]

@peter220950 "Readers came out 3-1 in favour of keeping the line in a Dorset Echo reader poll conducted in 2001."

[The Stationmaster]

  I am very surprised - I remember all the protests about cyclists getting stuck, and high heels breaking. The whole area has changed so much since I was 'local' but I cannot see ttitudes having changed that much. Getting a true handle on the numbers of those "in favour" or "supportive" is going to be near impossible. I do like the idea so would be in the category - I just do not believe it to be practical or even possible.

 

Grief, is the old Dorset Echo still in existence? Went on a school trip round their offices in about 1958/9!

Having walked over (literally) part of the tramway very recently I would suggest that any 'arguments' about cycle wheels getting stuck and high heels breaking area s relevant now as they ever would have as I noted a lot of the flangeway was relatively clear and not filled with tarmac.

 

Similarly from a rail top point of view it looked in surprisingly good condition although that obviously tells us little or nothing about what is or sin't holding it together underneath the road surface.

 

Incidentally as far as cycle wheels are concerned the lady you see in my 05 August photo below was seemingly far more concerned about road vehicles than getting stuck in the railway track.

 

[Horsetan]

@peter220950 "Readers came out 3-1 in favour of keeping the line in a Dorset Echo reader poll conducted in 2001."[/size]

That was fourteen years ago. Today's society is very much more willing to be "awkward squad" than previously - just look at the cycling lobby.

 

You can make statistics "prove" anything you want.

[peter220950]

@peter220950 "Readers came out 3-1 in favour of keeping the line in a Dorset Echo reader poll conducted in 2001."

 

But the article quoted was in 2011, ten years on, after several accidents, one critical.

 

Mitigating such events will prove very costly, as people, cars, and locomotives don't mix very well, and someone's going to have to get Public Liability Insurance on the operation if it's ever going to happen. I'm guessing the costs of traffic management measures alone will prove to be a huge cost, the recent road crossing works on the WHR at Porthmadog would give some idea of the problems involved in running on the highway.

 

Bearing in mind a revenue stream that's probably going to be somewhere in the 60k per year region it's not a very rosy picture commercially, however much we all would like to see it happen.

 

Unless a credible financial budget can be produced, to prove the viablilty of such a scheme, as well as evidence that the Powers that Be (Local Government, Network Rail, Highways etc. etc.) are more sympathetic than a 'like' on Facebook, I fear it will go the same way as previous attempts to open the line.

[Horsetan]

A "like" on Farcebook is completely value-free.

[phil-b259]

I understand Network Rail couldn't guarantee the safety of the track without digging the concrete up to inspect it.

 

Correct - too many people forget this aspect. Heritage railways may not run at 100mph, but railway vehicles are still heavy things which require the trackwork (including its base foundation) to be in a reasonable state if repair.

 

People need to remember that while the rails may look as though they are securely embedded into the road surface, in reality much of the tramway consists of rails attached to wooden timbers which were subsequently berried in asphalt (Timber rots quickly compared to concrete (as is found in the reborn Tramway system such as Manchesters metrolink). As such while the rails may look stable enough NR will not risk allowing trains (Even Pacer type vehicles) to traverse the line in case of a derailment, particularly a the line has a large body of water running parallel.

 

The other big issue is the stability of the Quay walls - As Condor Ferries and Weymouth Council found out they are not necessarily as roust as appearances would have you believe.

 

A lightweight tram car (be it horse or battery powered) might just be light enough to get away without needing to rip up the surface and renew the tracks - anything more and you are talking mega money.

[Jwnewall]

I don't take the Facebook page by supporters I take the change.org page and what people say. Change.org people have to put personal information  so its not just a click away!

 

People have said this feels like its going o be the most successful because of social media. The last ones were just in the paper or something, this is across radio stations, papers and the web! Sure we don't know what the fate might be, but we have spread to thousands of people in under a month (226 in 6 hours!)

[Jwnewall]

The rails (taking from footage of rail tours) look almost exact to what they are today. Ive also got a book and you can see in a photo from the 1920's there is rail erosion on it. But yes, the sleepers. It all depends on how the road was paved. If it was good, then they could be in top shape, but not, then the water would goes through the holes and erode the wood. Now the sleepers is the main problem here.

 

I have been told my a member of the harbor society group that the walls are very strong, there were only a few collapses in the olden days because it was very poorly put together.

[Kenton]

 

A "like" on Farcebook is completely value-free.

Whereas one on RMWeb is priceless

[phil-b259]

The rails (taking from footage of rail tours) look almost exact to what they are today. Ive also got a book and you can see in a photo from the 1920's there is rail erosion on it. But yes, the sleepers. It all depends on how the road was paved. If it was good, then they could be in top shape, but not, then the water would goes through the holes and erode the wood. Now the sleepers is the main problem here.

 

 

But you won't be able to tell that without actually conducting some trial excavations which requires the cooperation of NR and the council. Not so much of an issue if the results are good - but a BIG issue if said excavations raise ANY doubts about the state of the current foundations.

 

Of course, with enough money its all fixable - but it would be foolhardy to assume everything will be fine and focus primarily on operational matters.

 

 

 

I have been told my a member of the harbor society group that the walls are very strong, there were only a few collapses in the olden days because it was very poorly put together.

 

 

Erm.... what about the collapse that forced Condor Ferries to move operations to Poole a year or so ago? Assuming that they are OK simply because of local hearsay will not cut it in todays world I'm afraid.

 

Ultimately the group wish to be successful then they need to start focusing on the civils side before worrying too much about rolling stock etc. By all means highlight what options are out there to provide a service, but in discussions with the Council and NR it will be civil engineering issues that will govern whether they are prepared to sell / take on responsibility for the line.

[The Stationmaster]

But you won't be able to tell that without actually conducting some trial excavations which requires the cooperation of NR and the council. Not so much of an issue if the results are good - but a BIG issue if said excavations raise ANY doubts about the state of the current foundations.

 

Of course, with enough money its all fixable - but it would be foolhardy to assume everything will be fine and focus primarily on operational matters.

 

 

 

 

Erm.... what about the collapse that forced Condor Ferries to move operations to Poole a year or so ago? Assuming that they are OK simply because of local hearsay will not cut it in todays world I'm afraid.

 

Ultimately the group wish to be successful then they need to start focusing on the civils side before worrying too much about rolling stock etc. By all means highlight what options are out there to provide a service, but in discussions with the Council and NR it will be civil engineering issues that will govern whether they are prepared to sell / take on responsibility for the line.

Money is/has very clearly been spent on the harbour wall beyond the old ferry terminal building and presumably whoever has charge of the quay will continue to do whatever is necessary to keep the wall in good order in order to make it safe for the very considerable yacht traffic which now uses various parts of it - including the relatively new landing pontoons such as the one from which I recently embarked.  it is clear that some of the concrete wall adjacent to the ferry terminal is not in top notch condition but that is no doubt as replaceable as the section by the vehicle loading ramp (my photo below) which very obviously has been rebuilt and is presumably the berth used by Condor Ferries (which still advertises sailings to/from Weymouth on its website).

 

[Froxfield2012]

I am afraid that Condor has, whatever it may say on its website, gone for good.  The new larger fast ferry won't fit the space available in Weymouth and the older ferries are in the process of being sold off.  I should think Weymouth authorities are pretty unhappy with Condor given the amount they spent on the pier to get services restored!

 

As someone who visits Weymouth regularly, it would be nice to think that the tramway could be re-vitalised. It would be nice, but I struggle to believe it is possible.  Things have just moved on too much since the turn of the millennium.

 

Richard

[phil-b259]

Money is/has very clearly been spent on the harbour wall beyond the old ferry terminal building and presumably whoever has charge of the quay will continue to do whatever is necessary to keep the wall in good order in order to make it safe for the very considerable yacht traffic which now uses various parts of it - including the relatively new landing pontoons such as the one from which I recently embarked.  it is clear that some of the concrete wall adjacent to the ferry terminal is not in top notch condition but that is no doubt as replaceable as the section by the vehicle loading ramp (my photo below) which very obviously has been rebuilt and is presumably the berth used by Condor Ferries (which still advertises sailings to/from Weymouth on its website).

 

 

IIRC that new looking section is the result of the collapse of the old wall rather than anything else. While Condor Ferries may have returned, a search on google for news articles will show that they were kept away for at least a year - and they seriously considered not returning at one stage, which I admit may have been a tactic to get Weymouth council to hurry up and fix the quay.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-23317890

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-21118805

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-17595983

 

Now of course it stands to reason this section is put under far more stress (thanks to the ferry service) than the landward sections of the quay and in the context of reopening the tramway the quayside walls may well be absolutely fine. However without a fact based assessment (as opposed to rumour and hearsay), I would be reluctant to assume there will be no problems at all, particularly given this article

 

http://www.viewfrompublishing.co.uk/news_view/33185/11/1/weymouth-harbour-a-%E2%80%98ticking-bomb%E2%80%99-as-huge

 

Oh and it would seem Condor Ferries pulled out of Weymouth this March

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-32013883

[ForestPines]

When I first came across this campaign a few weeks ago my reaction was "aha! Someone has visited Bristol Harbour and wants to copy it in Weymouth." And the Bristol Harbour line does cope with many of the things people have highlighted as issues on this thread - adults and children walking in front of the train, for example, or carrying passengers in open wagons despite the weather - I think the BHR's main passenger vehicles are a couple of Conflats with an added open superstructure on top.

 

The BHR does of course run beside a large body of water - and I do recall reading somewhere that in the 80s the condition of the infrastructure was bad enough that part of the line could only be used at high tide - other people on here may be able to confirm or deny this!

 

The BHR has had an issue, though, with cyclists: in particular, in 2013 a cyclist died after his wheel caught in a flangeway and he fell in the harbour. As a result, cycling is now banned on the stretch in front of the museum building where the accident happened, the ban being enforced by a barrier chicane which has to be temporarily dismantled when trains are running.

 

However, only a small fraction of the BHR is actually quayside or tramway - most of it is normal, fenced railway line. The parts that are either unfenced or inset are alongside quaysides and roads that are either completely pedestrianised, or have relatively little traffic - the road is effectively an "access only" cul-de-sac which only serves the quayside. The pedestrian and cyclist traffic is by far heavier.

 

The other advantage of the BHR is that - although volunteer-staffed like most heritage lines - it's part of the city council's museum service. Of course this is a disadvantage in some ways too - such as the various council plans to turn it into a bus lane that have popped up over the years - but it definitely gives the railway an advantage when facing issues like the cyclist death mentioned above.

[uax6]

Another issue here is that unlike most railways, where (with suitable protection) you can get on and dig out your sleepers, here you are going to have to get permission from the council to close parts of the roadway off, and then you will have time constraints to get it all restored again.

 

Does make the work a lot harder, but not impossible, to maintain your bit of railway.....

 

 

Andy G

[Jwnewall]

Well, we have interacted with BHR and in some places it is a carbon copy, but most is taken from many heritage sites.

 

I would see that happening on the weymouth branch due to parking is on the outer of the track, but i will look into that.

[Jwnewall]

Due to this being on a public highway, it will take lots, lots, lots of time and money, but we hope to try to make a charity type of thing so people can donate towards the campaign, but making sure were not just taking money out of their pockets for sod all.

[phil-b259]

but making sure were not just taking money out of their pockets for sod all.

 

Which is why it is essential to have the official "stakeholders" (as they are called these days) properly on board from the begining. For starters you need to convince NR your body has the necessary legal and technical skills to look after all aspects of the tramway before they will consider leasing or selling it. Then you need to convince Weymouth council of the same, plus that local residents (who have now got used to the line being disused) are not in opposition to your plans. Finally you will need to convince the ORR that you have a robust SMS in place as demanded by the ROGS legislation - particularly as operation will be along a public highway.

 

Now don't get me wrong, in principle the idea has potential, but while a website is useful to gauge public interest, it will do very little to address the three things listed above. For that lots of private discussion is needed with the relevant parties - the worst thing you can do is 'go public' with a full campaign without detailed consultation with the aforementioned stakeholders as all that will do is get their backs up and make them even less inclined to give you positive support. Being a Charity will make no difference in this respect.

[Jwnewall]

Thats exactly what we will do. We are in the process of connecting with people are hearing concerns etc before we decide to head off to Network Rail. As ive said 90% of the locals want it back and they are the most supportive of it, we've only had 1 local so far who's not in favour of it. The charity part is more for the money side.

Ofcource due to my age i wont be able to write a the forums etc but the other members of this campaign are over 50's so are capable of that.

[Horsetan]

Which is why it is essential to have the official "stakeholders" (as they are called these days) properly on board from the begining. For starters you need to convince NR your body has the necessary legal and technical skills to look after all aspects of the tramway before they will consider leasing or selling it. Then you need to convince Weymouth council of the same, plus that local residents (who have now got used to the line being disused) are not in opposition to your plans. Finally you will need to convince the ORR that you have a robust SMS in place as demanded by the ROGS legislation - particularly as operation will be along a public highway.

 

Now don't get me wrong, in principle the idea has potential, but while a website is useful to gauge public interest, it will do very little to address the three things listed above. For that lots of private discussion is needed with the relevant parties - the worst thing you can do is 'go public' with a full campaign without detailed consultation with the aforementioned stakeholders as all that will do is get their backs up and make them even less inclined to give you positive support. Being a Charity will make no difference in this respect.

Weymouth is one of those towns that works despite its local council (ambivalent and equivocal at the best of times) rather than because of it.

 

Charities don't generally have a good name nowadays because most of them are business rackets with highly-paid staff (funded by *your* money, don't forget). The charismatic disaster that was Kids' Company is only the tip of the iceberg.

[phil-b259]

Charities don't generally have a good name nowadays because most of them are business rackets with highly-paid staff (funded by *your* money, don't forget). The charismatic disaster that was Kids' Company is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

Rather a sweeping statement there - and while yes, problems do exist its worth remembering that much of our Heritage scene (railways and other things) only exists because of the assistance / creation of charitable bodies. Also in this day and age it is increasingly the case that full time staff are needed to comply with the ever more demanding legislative financial and legal aspects of running a charity. In fact it could be said that the problem with the Kids Company was there wasn't enough suitably skilled and paid staff looking after its financial affairs....

[Jenny Emily]

I'm a little confused at the campaigns by cyclists to have the lines removed because they are a 'death trap'. Surely a good cyclist recognises the dangers and doesn't try and ride up the groove. When I lived briefly in Bonn there were a lot of tram lines in the roads, and an awful lot of cyclists. They seemed to get on quite well. I was warned from the outset to be careful, and I was. You just made sure that you crossed the rails at enough of an angle that your wheels didn't drop into the groove because there's only so far you can ride in a straight line before you fall off, and I knew that. If you did have the misfortune of getting into the groove, the trick was to put your legs down to balance yourself and bunny hop your wheels back out.

 

I don't see too many campaigns to have the Metrolink in Manchester or the Supertram in Sheffield filled in because of the hazard to cyclists.

[Jwnewall]

NEWS REPORT

 

there are some things that are wrong but it great!

 

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/13637007.ALL_ABOARD__Teen_s_campaign_to_revive_Weymouth_Harbour_Tramway/