The Patiala State Monorail Trainways

[edcayton]

There are several video's of this on Youtube (sorry, can't do links), including a useful 6 minute film explaining how it works and the history of the system, plus film of it in steam and carrying passengers.

 

Ed

[Talltim]

There are several video's of this on Youtube (sorry, can't do links), including a useful 6 minute film explaining how it works and the history of the system, plus film of it in steam and carrying passengers.

 

Ed

This one?

[Stubby47]

Ed & Tim - absolutely fantastic - many thanks !!

Edited September 16, 2015 by Stubby47

[Mallard60022]

Stud, I presume that magic cyclist (Dutch is it) system wouldn't be powerful enough?

Phil

[Northroader]

Another bright suggestion, then. (You know how it is, you hit the post button and then think "noooo", thank you for your forbearance ). What about reviving something you never see these days - stud contact? You could place these in random grouping close on either side of your running rail poking up through the weeds and the elephant poo, so they wouldn't be so obvious. Looking at the pictures various kind folks have sent in, there would seem to be plenty of room for collector skates to dangle unobserved under the coach. With the reed switch thing you'd need a further magnet to return them to the original setting for the next circuit, or another train wired up backwards following the first, if you follow me.

On modelling the Indian scene, I suspect with your micro layout interests, you would be familiar with carendt.com, there's a German guy on there doing very good scenes for a Darjeeling - Himalaya line you could draw on, pages 96a and 86a, for example? Me, I've been no further than Glassy Junction.

[Stubby47]

Thanks Northroader.

Stud contact is one option I'd not considered.

Hopefully the reed switches are self resetting, once the magnet has been removed - if not this is all going south very quickly.

 

Yes, I'm a great fan of Carl's site - see 89a & 93a for Porth Byhan.

 

Again, though, it didn't occur to mekto look there for Indian themed layouts.

Cheers

Stu

[dhjgreen]

Thanks Northroader.

Stud contact is one option I'd not considered.

Hopefully the reed switches are self resetting, once the magnet has been removed - if not this is all going south very quickly.

Yes, I'm a great fan of Carl's site - see 89a & 93a for Porth Byhan.

Again, though, it didn't occur to mekto look there for Indian themed layouts.

Cheers

Stu

Just don't buy reed switches described as "latching/bistable"

[awoodford]

Heh, it looks like I've been pipped at the post (as usual)... I have the PSMT earmarked for a future project. I've been collecting together bits, but I need to finish my current project before I start on anything else, and that'll be a while yet. I'm proposing to use a magnetic system for moving the loco. For a simple circle of track, my solution would be to lay a circle of normal track beneath the monorail track base. A weighted loco chassis or SPUD would run on the normal track, with a door-catch magnet mounted on top of the chassis, so that it is just below the monorail track base. Another magnet is attached to the underside of the free-wheeling monorail loco, so it gets dragged along by the hidden power unit underneath. 

See sketch below...

I've mocked up the idea by attaching a magnet beneath a OO wagon, and moving another magnet along under the baseboard. It moved the wagon just fine, so I think the idea will work. I've not tried it with more heavyweight 7mm stuff though.

 

Thanks StEnodoc for posting the photos of the points. I wondered what sort of arrangement was used, and hadn't seen any photos before.

 

I would thoroughly recommend anyone (even if you're not into monorails) to read the 1969 Railway Magazine article and later reappraisal, at the links below...

 

http://www.irfca.org/members/ddickens/PSMTArticle.pdf

http://www.irfca.org/articles/patiala-monorail-reappraisal.html

 

The line's bizarre history, the tracking down of the builder in later years, the rediscovery of stock and equipment in a shed 40 years after the line's abandonment,  the subsequent preservation, and the mystery of the lost locos, all makes for an absolutely fascinating story. Worthy of a TV drama!

 

All the best with the project, Stubby47. I'll be following progress.

 

Alan.

 

[edcayton]

What would be wrong with battery operation and remote control? You could get most of the gubbins from a cheap R/C car.

 

Ed

[Stubby47]

Very true, and I have a couple of suitable donors.

 

I think the masochist in me wants to try the reed switch method, just so I can use a standard 12v dc controller.  Also, the R/C controllers I have are On/Off types, no speed control - I thought about using the left/right for driving a speed control servo on the loco, but it all started to get a bit complex for what's a one-off idea for a 'fun' project' .

 

 

The next thing to assess is the size of the loco.  According to my good friend Wikipedia, the loco wheel base is 3ft 11inches. That's for all three wheels, which even in 7mm scale is under 28mm - so not much more than an inch.

 

That's quite small - probably too small for the concept I have in mind, so I might move up a few scales.

[St Enodoc]

 

Heh, it looks like I've been pipped at the post (as usual)... I have the PSMT earmarked for a future project. I've been collecting together bits, but I need to finish my current project before I start on anything else, and that'll be a while yet. I'm proposing to use a magnetic system for moving the loco. For a simple circle of track, my solution would be to lay a circle of normal track beneath the monorail track base. A weighted loco chassis or SPUD would run on the normal track, with a door-catch magnet mounted on top of the chassis, so that it is just below the monorail track base. Another magnet is attached to the underside of the free-wheeling monorail loco, so it gets dragged along by the hidden power unit underneath. 

See sketch below...

psmtmag.jpg

I've mocked up the idea by attaching a magnet beneath a OO wagon, and moving another magnet along under the baseboard. It moved the wagon just fine, so I think the idea will work. I've not tried it with more heavyweight 7mm stuff though.

 

Thanks StEnodoc for posting the photos of the points. I wondered what sort of arrangement was used, and hadn't seen any photos before.

 

I would thoroughly recommend anyone (even if you're not into monorails) to read the 1969 Railway Magazine article and later reappraisal, at the links below...

 

http://www.irfca.org/members/ddickens/PSMTArticle.pdf

http://www.irfca.org/articles/patiala-monorail-reappraisal.html

 

The line's bizarre history, the tracking down of the builder in later years, the rediscovery of stock and equipment in a shed 40 years after the line's abandonment,  the subsequent preservation, and the mystery of the lost locos, all makes for an absolutely fascinating story. Worthy of a TV drama!

 

All the best with the project, Stubby47. I'll be following progress.

 

Alan.

 

Alan, I enjoyed reading those two articles. Have you also got the 1962 Railway World one by John R Day that is referred to?

The Darvill article also reminded me of Mike Satow's name. Although I recall reading that he had worked in India I hadn't realised that he was instrumental in setting up the NRM in Delhi. I do remember his name from UK preservation in the 1970s and 1980s, but one hardly hears him mentioned nowadays. One of the forgotten heroes of the rail preservation movement I think.

[Stubby47]

Alan (awoodford)

 

Sorry to steal your thunder !!  

 

You say you've been collecting bits - have you sourced suitable double flanged wheels yet ?  Ideas I have are to use some of the Langley ones, or use two standard wheels boss to boss.

 

From the video TallTim linked to, it looks as if the wheels are solid, rather than spoked.

 

Having said that, other videos of the loco in motion have so much steam spurting out that the actual wheels and motion are hidden - so maybe some cotton wool behind each cylinder might work...

 

Stu

Edited September 18, 2015 by Stubby47

[Neil]

There's some interesting footage of the monorail dormant and before preservation on the I-player here (at approx 25 mins in) .

[Stubby47]

There's some interesting footage of the monorail dormant and before preservation on the I-player here (at approx 25 mins in) .

 

Brilliant find Neil, many thanks.

 

Some great footage of the workings of the locos.

[Echo]

Good luck!.............

 

...........but if all else fails, there is always this alternative

 

http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/stronach-dutton-road-rail.php

[Stubby47]

Good luck!.............

 

...........but if all else fails, there is always this alternative

 

http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/stronach-dutton-road-rail.php

Nah, that looks too easy...

[burgundy]

Some more holiday snaps (March 2009), which may (or may not) be helpful. 

 

The key point is that the loco should be shrouded in steam escaping from every nook and cranny. I also have a vague recollection that the fireman was pushing the loco forward with a convenient piece of wood (rather like punting). I trust that we shall see both these features modelled?

Best wishes

Eric

[Northroader]

I did wot you said, following links until I ended up in 19 pages of porth byhan, (new to me, and most useful for a West Country line in the planning stages). hAving seen this, and now knowing your capabilities, I'll watch developments with great interest, although worried by your time deadline. very best of luck.

[peter220950]

 

The next thing to assess is the size of the loco.  According to my good friend Wikipedia, the loco wheel base is 3ft 11inches. That's for all three wheels, which even in 7mm scale is under 28mm - so not much more than an inch.

 

That's quite small - probably too small for the concept I have in mind, so I might move up a few scales.

 

Just a thought, given the size, and complexity involved in trying to power very small wheels in the middle of the loco, between two sets of valvegear, is it possible to power the large side wheel, and use the loco wheels purely for guidance and pick-up. That way it should be easy to get it working in 7mm (well not easy but easier) I'm guessing the traction would be better as well.

 

Peter

[Stubby47]

Eric,

Thanks for the photos and your recollections. Yes, it does appear that the loco was always covered in steam, it would be good to replicate this. I'm not sure about the fireman though.

 

Northroader,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. There is plenty of time. Despite nothing actually physically started, I have ideas in my head how I want the layout to look, how to wire the track and how to construct the loco and coach.

 

Speaking of which,

 

Peter, thanks for the idea about powering the larger wheel. The extra friction from the valve gear hadn't occured to me either.

I'm hoping to source a combined motor & gear reduction unit which will provide plenty of torque.

[awoodford]

Alan, I enjoyed reading those two articles. Have you also got the 1962 Railway World one by John R Day that is referred to?

 

I've not seen the Day article, and while I would be interested to read it, I've not made any real efforts to track down the magazine.

Alan.

[awoodford]

 

You say you've been collecting bits - have you sourced suitable double flanged wheels yet ?  Ideas I have are to use some of the Langley ones, or use two standard wheels boss to boss.

 

No I've not found any double flanged wheels. I was intending to experiment with adding extra flanges to normal wagon wheels - possibly using metal washers or even plastic discs. The profiles will be all wrong, but so long as it stays on the track that's all I ask of it. In 4mm, I'd probably run the loco on 2 axles with (oversized) 12mm wagon wheels and no motion, hiding it all behind a skirt so it couldn't be seen anyway. A bit of a cop out, but to do it properly looks like a challenge too far for me.

Alan.

[CourthsVeil]

Hello Stu,
first I would like to emphasize that I find your project fascinating; far away from mainstream concepts it is really new and interesting (as we are used with your various layouts/dioramas).

And it will be entertaining, I fear…

 

I had some thoughts about it and see several points to consider:

 

If I understand the concept correctly, you will use track segments with a length corresponding to the wheel base (“The critcal distance is that between the two pickups – as long as the track sections are shorter than this it should all work.”). Now, the wheel base being no more than four foot (i.e. 1.1” in 7mm), this would mean that you need no less than ~100 track sections for a circle of 9 foot circumference. That’s ~100 switches, regardless whether Reed or Hall …      

Under these circumstances I would not hesitate (if it were my project…) to put the second pickup not in the loco but at the end of the wagon; this would increase the distance of the pickups to some 30 foot (leading loco wheel – 2^nd bogie), making things a lot easier (and cheaper).

 

But an 11” wagon on a 9’ circle…???      

 

 

Re. Reed switch vs. Hall sensor:

some years ago I experimented with a hall IC switch. It did work well, but could not manage more than 100mA – much too weak for a 7mm loco. Thus each hall switch would need an amplifying circuit…

Not all reed switches like the current a 7mm loco requires, the reliable ones are expensive, the minors need additional circuitry like the hall switches.

 

As I said: ENTERTAINING! Good for masochists! Or people wanting to spend some time in the sanatorium…      

 

Better then to think about the stud solution, me thinks.

 

Another variant has been shown by Carl A.: page 81, Jan 2009:

A LATE ENTRY FOR THE 'WORLD'S SMALLEST LAYOUT' CHALLENGE!      

 

But, as you wrote already: 

 

Nah, that looks too easy...

 

Still, I will follow with interest!

 

Regards

   Armin

Edited September 25, 2015 by CourthsVeil

[raymw]

If you are only running one loco , then you only need maybe 3 or 4 switches, connect more or less alternate sections in parallel. Then either sense the loco position and operate switches accordingly, or have the switching linked to the speed/direction of the speed/direction controller.

[Stubby47]

Armin,

 

Thanks for your post. There are more of my ramblings about the loco and its operation here :

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103277-scratchbuild-loco-challenge-psmt-no-4/

.

I think the 7mm tag is perhaps confusing the issue - it was the planned scale but was deemed too small, so 1:35 has been chosen instead.

 

The intention has always been to use the loco wheels to pick up one polarity and the coach wheels the other, apologies if this wasn't clear.

 

Stu