Rick_Skateboard Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Hello All. Has anyone one ever made or seen any signalbox indicators? I'm sure I read a magazine article about them some time ago, but I can't remember where or when. I'm talking about the indicators that sit on the block shelf and show signals on/off or points normal/reverse for installations where the signalman can't see the whole layout. I'd like to make some for my railway, and the exact scale isn't important because as long as they work I think they would add to the feel of working the signalling. Attached is a picture of the indicators at Greenford for reference. Any help would be much apreciated. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 24, 2015 I wanted to put a panel in Widnes box (the model) - which would be linked to the DCC and actually show the route and occupancy lights however we decided it wouldn't be seen and the idea was scrapped. An indicator would be less than 2mm across the face, the arm which repeats the signal would be tiny and invisible - even if you doubled, or more their size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted September 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 24, 2015 I have digital copies of the BR drawings for them, there are lots of small parts even in the full sized ones! There used to be someone who had a website who made 1/2 sized working block instruments, but I presume hes long gone now. You could use small centre-zero ammeters/voltmeter for them, but they will still be at least 2" in diameter. (How about 2" smiths car gauges?) Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 24, 2015 I have digital copies of the BR drawings for them, there are lots of small parts even in the full sized ones! There used to be someone who had a website who made 1/2 sized working block instruments, but I presume hes long gone now. You could use small centre-zero ammeters/voltmeter for them, but they will still be at least 2" in diameter. (How about 2" smiths car gauges?) Andy G The old trick - going back to the days of Ernest Carter I think - was to do exactly that and use centre zero ammeters for block instruments and they could be used for signal repeaters as well no doubt (albeit not actually repeating the signal of course) but as Andy has said they will not be tiny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Well, this chap made his own indicators for 1:12 scale tablet instruments - and they work!http://lyntonstation.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/pilton-yard-signal-box-at-rainford.html But I would suggest that, unless you have skills approaching those of a watch-maker, then you'll need to aim for something a little bigger :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 There is only one moving part in a "Signal Repeater", and not that it could be "Scaled Down" much. The same movement "Spangnoletti's Induced Needle", is also used in Block Instrument etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Thanks Mick. What book is that from? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I've wondered if you could build something simple with a indicator arm in the vertical position and either side two small electro magnets like the type used in auto uncouplers which would pull it one way or the other which ever magnet was energized. even this would be over sized for most model railway scales Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Bill, "Railway Signalling and Communications Installation and Maintenance", London, The St. Margaret's Technical Press. First published c1946, hard back red cover. Peter Kaye, later reprinted it in A4 "Magazine Style". You can probably find either on Amazon or similar., but possibly at a price, I paid £1.10 for my copy in February 1976. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 The old trick - going back to the days of Ernest Carter I think - was to do exactly that and use centre zero ammeters for block instruments and they could be used for signal repeaters as well no doubt (albeit not actually repeating the signal of course) but as Andy has said they will not be tiny. Even a centre zero meter isn't a necessity for a block instrument - a non-centre zero one will work if appropriate resistors are used - I've built one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Skateboard Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 Thanks for the replies guys. I ordered a couple of back issues of MRJ because I thought I'd tracked down the article, but it was for Block Instruments - built by Mike Norris. The small ammeter does sound like a good idea, but as people have said it might not really be small enough. Could a smaller Spangnoletti's needle not be made with small coils and magnetic parts? I'm not an electrical whizz, far from it, but I'm sure these are old simple bits of equipment! I wonder if smaller modern components could be used to make a miniature one? Cheers, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 The small ammeter does sound like a good idea, but as people have said it might not really be small enough. Could a smaller Spangnoletti's needle not be made with small coils and magnetic parts? Depends how small you want it, this topic is difficult because no-one has said what size is wanted, are we supposed to be proposing some way to make scale indicators on a scale N gauge blockshelf or something, perhaps 1/6th full size to use on a layout control panel, or something in between? Rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Rick, To help steer the flow, can you clarify that these are for use on your control panel? Presumably alongside working lever etc, along the lines of the Brassmasters frame (http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/leverframe.htm - though not currently available off the shelf) or similar? Rather than a representation inside a signal box... I don't think I can add anything useful to the topic yet, but it might help steer people if you are looking for something that could be 1-2cm across rather than 1-2mm! Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Skateboard Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 Yes, I did say they didn't have to be an exact scale, but I should have narrowed it down a bit more! The exact scale isn't too important, but I has hoping to use the MSE frame ( http://www.modelsignals.com/sm_parts_frame.htm). The website doesn't mention a scale, but says the levers are 4 inches tall, so if anyone can work out the scale from that I'd be interested to know. That said, the indicators don't HAVE to be to the same scale, but it would be nice if they looked in keeping. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 In practical terms it would be ridiculous to have indicators scaled to even 4 inch levers. In real life these indicators could be very small so in reduced scale they would be tiny Id suggest an indicator of about 1" would be the smallest practical size. You could use some small meter movements or if technically inclined some of the small stepper motors designed for car instruments Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 If the above does not work out, have you considered cheating by using servos? The servo could be hidden underneath the display, but could drive a needle to whatever setting you wanted, much like they are used for semaphore signals, and could replicate the bounce you get with the indicators. I guess the hard bit (for me anyway) would be how to indicate a centre setting (as opposed to just reverse/normal for signals and points) for the block instruments, but I presume arduinos can deal with this, or double circuits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Skateboard Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Tonight I've made a small electromagnet from enamelled wire wrapped around a Peco track pin. I will continue to experiment with this and aim to make it move the needle on an indicator. As has been said, an indicator of about 1 inch diameter might be about right. Perhaps the face could be smaller and the workings bigger but somehow concealed behind. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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