Signalbox Lever Colours.

[9430]

On the signalbox diagram of the box for my layout it shows lever no.3 operating points into a siding, the catch points and the ground signal. What colour should this lever be painted ?

 

Regards, 9430.

[RailWest]

A good question....

 

When you say that it also works the ground signal, then I'm assuming that you are talking about an old-fashioned non-independent 'point indicator'? Otherwise, what is the context please? How do you prove that the trap-point has closed properly before the signal is cleared?

 

A point lever would normally be black.   AFAIK levers for points with indicators were also simply painted black, rather than red+black. But what railway company and period is your layout?

[micknich2003]

I have looked up my NERly notes on the subject.

Instruction dated 26 May 1902, lever painted half red, half black.

November 1919, no ref to to Points/Signal, now only point levers painted black.

[kevinlms]

On the signalbox diagram of the box for my layout it shows lever no.3 operating points into a siding, the catch points and the ground signal. What colour should this lever be painted ?

 

Regards, 9430.

So this is a trailing point, as no facing point lock?

[phil-b259]

Red and Black. Where a single leaver operate two different functions the colour scheme is usually a hybrid of the two. A combined stop and distant signal lever will be split with the tip half red and the lower half yellow. A set of points where the lever both moves the blades and operates the FPL will be Blue and Black.

 

See here for pictures

 

http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/preserved,signaling/Interesting

Edited September 25, 2015 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

So this is a trailing point, as no facing point lock?

 

There is no requirement for an FPL unless it is PASSENGER TRAINS that will be using the points in the facing direction. Providing this requirement is met then it is perfectly acceptable for a FPL not to be provided.

[The Stationmaster]

Red and Black. Where a single leaver operate two different functions the colour scheme is usually a hybrid of the two. A combined stop and distant signal lever will be split with the tip half red and the lower half yellow. A set of points where the lever both moves the blades and operates the FPL will be Blue and Black.

 

See here for pictures

 

http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/preserved,signaling/Interesting

Sorry Phil but no.  Mick has already dated the NER change and the situation on the Western was similar (although I don't know if there was ever a change) in that levers working points which had a ground signal (effectively a point indicator) driven off the stretcher bar were painted black.  In fact at one time, not all that long ago, on the Western if the lever was red above black it indicated that it worked a Relief Line stop (running) signal (and yellow above black that it worked a Relief Line Distant Signal).

 

So as with so many thing any modern 'rules' about joint function levers don't necessarily apply and it depends on period and era/Company/BR region modelled, and of course a point indicator type ground signal is not necessarily a stop signal.  And are there actually any point indicator type ground signal still in existence anywhere on the national network?

[micknich2003]

The Station Master has partly beaten me to it, but has I have scanned the relevant info, her goes.

 

 Attached a page from the Hull & Barnsley Rly's Appendix, this clearly states the situation, the disc is not a signal, only an indicator. Also attached a c1900 signalling and layout drawing of Hull Alexandra Dock, This shows a mixture of worked discs and Point Indicators, and these are illustrated by different symbols

.

 

[phil-b259]

Sorry Phil but no.  Mick has already dated the NER change and the situation on the Western was similar (although I don't know if there was ever a change) in that levers working points which had a ground signal (effectively a point indicator) driven off the stretcher bar were painted black.  In fact at one time, not all that long ago, on the Western if the lever was red above black it indicated that it worked a Relief Line stop (running) signal (and yellow above black that it worked a Relief Line Distant Signal).

 

So as with so many thing any modern 'rules' about joint function levers don't necessarily apply and it depends on period and era/Company/BR region modelled, and of course a point indicator type ground signal is not necessarily a stop signal.  And are there actually any point indicator type ground signal still in existence anywhere on the national network?

 

Doh! Must read already posted comments more carefully - and not for the first time guilty as charged of extrapolating current practice backwards in time. Interesting to hear about the Westerns use of mixed colour levers to indicate the relief lines though, makes you wonder what other quirks (or elephant traps for me) there are out there to find.

 

Anyone able to answer The stationmasters question?

[phil-b259]

 

 Attached a page from the Hull & Barnsley Rly's Appendix, this clearly states the situation, the disc is not a signal, only an indicator. Also attached a c1900 signalling and layout drawing of Hull Alexandra Dock, This shows a mixture of worked discs and Point Indicators, and these are illustrated by different symbols

.

 

For clarity are the point indicators they the white circle with the red centre or the all red circle?

[micknich2003]

 Phil, Nos 33 and 36 are conventional worked discs, and from their own lever. The small red circle at No39 Point Ends is a Indicator, and worked directly off the point stretcher.

[micknich2003]

Attached photo of a Saxby & Farmer example of a Point Indicator at Hemsworth Sidings H&BRly.

 

[kevinlms]

The Station Master has partly beaten me to it, but has I have scanned the relevant info, her goes.

 

 Attached a page from the Hull & Barnsley Rly's Appendix, this clearly states the situation, the disc is not a signal, only an indicator. Also attached a c1900 signalling and layout drawing of Hull Alexandra Dock, This shows a mixture of worked discs and Point Indicators, and these are illustrated by different symbols

Which of course has NOTHING to do with Alexandra Dock LNWR! I should read the caption properly.

[RailWest]

>>>In fact at one time, not all that long ago, on the Western if the lever was red above black it indicated that it worked a Relief Line stop (running) signal (and yellow above black that it worked a Relief Line Distant Signal).......

 

As an aside, and naming no names in order not to embarrass them <g>, but recently I came across a signalling display based on a GWR prototype which included a number of levers painted red/black in just that fashion. The problem was that the relevant signals on the prototype were not 'relief' line signals, but 'goods' line signals and therefore should have been red with a  broad black band around the middle....except for the fact that an accompanying photo showed quite clearly that in the BR(W) period depicted by the display the levers were plain red anyway!

 

However, we have still not heard from the OP yet as to which company/period he is modelling....
 

[phil-b259]

 Phil, Nos 33 and 36 are conventional worked discs, and from their own lever. The small red circle at No39 Point Ends is a Indicator, and worked directly off the point stretcher.

03_ALEXA - Copy.JPG

 

Erm, I am still not quite clear as 33 & 36 are represented by different symbols on the diagram while no. 39 is the same symbol as 36.

 

I'm guessing from the Hemsworth diagram that you meant to say no. 33 is the shunt signal while no. 36 & no.39 are point indicators

[kevinlms]

 Phil, Nos 33 and 36 are conventional worked discs, and from their own lever. The small red circle at No39 Point Ends is a Indicator, and worked directly off the point stretcher.

03_ALEXA - Copy.JPG

Sorry I'm confused, why are signals 31 & 33 in white circles & not the others?  I can see why signal 31 has its own lever, but I can't figure out 33 & 39.

[Grovenor]

The ones with white circles are the signals (31 & 33), the ones without are point indicators worked by the point lever (36 & 39).

Regards

[kevinlms]

The Station Master has partly beaten me to it, but has I have scanned the relevant info, her goes.

 

 Attached a page from the Hull & Barnsley Rly's Appendix, this clearly states the situation, the disc is not a signal, only an indicator. Also attached a c1900 signalling and layout drawing of Hull Alexandra Dock, This shows a mixture of worked discs and Point Indicators, and these are illustrated by different symbols

I love the level crossing layout.

[phil-b259]

>>>In fact at one time, not all that long ago, on the Western if the lever was red above black it indicated that it worked a Relief Line stop (running) signal (and yellow above black that it worked a Relief Line Distant Signal).......

 

As an aside, and naming no names in order not to embarrass them <g>, but recently I came across a signalling display based on a GWR prototype which included a number of levers painted red/black in just that fashion. The problem was that the relevant signals on the prototype were not 'relief' line signals, but 'goods' line signals and therefore should have been red with a  broad black band around the middle....except for the fact that an accompanying photo showed quite clearly that in the BR(W) period depicted by the display the levers were plain red anyway!

 

However, we have still not heard from the OP yet as to which company/period he is modelling....

 

 

Did any other company also use the GWR method of identifying which line the signals related to via different painting styles on the relevant levers.

[micknich2003]

Phil, my mistake, 36 and 39 are Point Indicators. No 33 is a disc signal. No wonder you were confused.

[The Stationmaster]

>>>In fact at one time, not all that long ago, on the Western if the lever was red above black it indicated that it worked a Relief Line stop (running) signal (and yellow above black that it worked a Relief Line Distant Signal).......

 

As an aside, and naming no names in order not to embarrass them <g>, but recently I came across a signalling display based on a GWR prototype which included a number of levers painted red/black in just that fashion. The problem was that the relevant signals on the prototype were not 'relief' line signals, but 'goods' line signals and therefore should have been red with a  broad black band around the middle....except for the fact that an accompanying photo showed quite clearly that in the BR(W) period depicted by the display the levers were plain red anyway!

 

However, we have still not heard from the OP yet as to which company/period he is modelling....

 

Quite agree Chris,  By the time I was starting to become familiar with the interior of Western signalboxes in the early 1960s I think all Relief Line signal levers which I saw were painted solely in the colour appropriate to their function.  However just to be totally contrary I did come across a frame in the very early 1960s in a 'box which only controlled Goods Lines and there all the running signal levers were painted black on their lower half.  In reality I reckon the ways of the Foreman Painter on any particular job might well have had an influence.

[RailWest]

Well, there were certainly still many red/black for the relief line signals in Newton Abbot West when I visited it c.1969. In fact, looking at the picture which I took, there seemed to be more black than red on each lever!

[9430]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the interest.

 

The siding was a reverse into refuge siding on the up running line of a double track goods only branch. The ground signal was one of the standard LMS disc type. The box diagram was drawn after the last resignalling in 1949. The diagram is one of John Swift's transcriptions.

 

Regards, 9430.

[Grovenor]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the interest.

 

The siding was a reverse into refuge siding on the up running line of a double track goods only branch. The ground signal was one of the standard LMS disc type. The box diagram was drawn after the last resignalling in 1949. The diagram is one of John Swift's transcriptions.

 

Regards, 9430.

Could you perhaps tell us where this mystery item was, and, if possible provide a link to the diagram. It's somewhat unusual to use a normal signal in this way.

Regards

[9430]

Attached is a copy of the box diagram and a cropped photo copyright unknown. Sorry for not including earlier but it proved beyond the capabilities of my hudl

We are looking at lever 3.

 

The location is Harrison's Siding on the SSR Norton Branch.

 

Regards, 9430..