RailWest Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Even more curious that it appears to have a slot on it....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 26, 2015 Even more curious that it appears to have a slot on it....... Slotted by a frame at the level crossing. Be careful of Swift diagrams, (I believe) they were not always drawn at the actual location but were drawn back in the office and are not always correct so they need to be taken as a guide and not a definitive fact. This diagram omits lever 1, which would be the up home no doubt. The photo although small does not appear to show a slotted ground signal, difficult to be 100% certain but I think I can only see one balance weight where 3 would be required. If 3 were slotted I would also expect 4 to be slotted - I actually don't see any reason why either should be slotted as signal 2, up starting, is already slotted by the crossing frame. The lever would be red and black in my humble one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 There does not seem to be any logic in slotting 3 without also slotting 1 and 4, so I would also suspect the diagram, the slot on 2 should be enough to protect the crossing. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 26, 2015 That diagram looks highly suspect to me - there are numbers missing for a start and I do wonder if the were transcribed accurately. And as Beast has already observed why on earth should 3 be slotted and where's the slot on the photo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9430 Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 The frame was a 10 lever frame. The scan is not the best but if you enlarge it you can see that the up home is worked by lever 1 also just off scan that lever 9 controls the down starter. So all levers are accounted for. I know that when you look at Swift's diagrams you need to be careful as I have spotted some errors in other diagrams. In the local instructions permissive working was allowed on the up line from Conduit Box (1 mile 563 yds distant ) through to Norton Junction No.3 Box ( 1273 yds distant ).Shunters were stationed at this junction and controlled the ground frame for access to the Colliery Sidings after shunt signal 4. From talking to former loco crew I am told that it was not unknown for trains to queue nose to tail for access to Norton Junction Yard. Regards, 9430. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9430 Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) From further enquieries it appears that all the Distants through the Section were fixed. Certainly no lever numbers are allocated to any of them and Swift seems to indicate this by the use of a horizontal line drawn on the arms. This applies to both Distants and also the Distant arms on the Up Home and the Up Starter. Regards, 9430. 7mm Scale model of Harrison's Box. Edited October 11, 2015 by 9430 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 Not sure if this thread is still active but here goes. I am modelling Helston (GWR) circa 1930 and plan to use DCC concept levers to model the frame there. I wondered if there was a summary any place of the colour scheme used to paint the various levers. thanks Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Andy Keane said: Not sure if this thread is still active but here goes. It is now! I read this section too! Paul. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Andy Keane said: I am modelling Helston (GWR) circa 1930 and plan to use DCC concept levers to model the frame there. I wondered if there was a summary any place of the colour scheme used to paint the various levers. thanks Andy Are you looking for the generic answer so as you can work out which lever is which colour, or the specific answer for each lever at Helston in the 30s? Paul. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 running and shunt signal levers - red point levers - black facing point lock lever - blue spare levers - white Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, bécasse said: running and shunt signal levers - red point levers - black facing point lock lever - blue spare levers - white Thanks, that’s what I was about to add. I know those colours work for the ‘58 Helston frame: the frame that was replaced still had one point indicator ‘signal’ operated directly from the point rodding. Do you know if such levers were Black or Black over Red? I can make an argument for either! Black over Red is that both functions are operated by the lever. Black only is that black over red is application of modern painting colours to an arrangement that was sufficiently outdated that they didn’t bother with such finesse when such arrangements were common. Paul. I’ve gone back to the first page and seen Stationmaster’s post from 2015 which answers my question. Black: for exactly the reason I surmised! Edited July 5, 2021 by 5BarVT Reading whole thread! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 Thanks guys. I guess my query is two part. First do we have a way of establishing the frame layout in 1933 and then what colours should I use. As far as I can tell the signal and track plan had four phases: first with an indirect loco shed connection via crossover, second with a direct loco shed point with FPL, third minus the stone chute siding (which seems to have lasted up to the 1956 diagram) and fourth with the stone shute back and the bigger frame in the box. I am trying for version two. So all the track, with two FPLs, two catch points and various ground signals, fixed distant and red and white shunt signal. But this was before the bigger frame of 1958. So what levers did they use pre war and what colours are most likely. thanks Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 Also I have seen photos with multi coloured levers, black and blue, some with white stripes or chevrons, etc. So quite keen to understand more for general interest. BTW I recently travelled to Inverness and various sections up there still had semaphore signals and working mechanical boxes, apparently they are listed! Who knew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 Also is there any chance I might find one of those beautiful hand drawn diagrams for Helston back then. Would be a nice thing to frame and hang on the wall above the layout. Even a copy would be good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, bécasse said: running and shunt signal levers - red point levers - black facing point lock lever - blue spare levers - white Yellow - Distant Signal White stripe on signal lever - Released by block (or ETT on single line) Blue over brown - special lever usually to release a lock such as a switching in lever or a direction lever etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 It would be good to have a full list of these variations (and I guess on this thread others might find it useful too). But In the end I may have to build a frame that is not true to the real layout because it had sprung points and points worked from ground levers while I will have to pull everything back to my point and signal motors and so have levers that did not really exist in the box. Then it would be nice to know what colours to apply to them. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2021 HI Andy, The book, "GWR Signalling Practice", contains a reproduction of the GWR painting instructions for 1907, including all lever colours at that time. The text describes how that colour system changed over time into the BR(WR) era. Sorry but it's a bit too much text to work out what the painting scheme was for, say, a 1930s timeframe and abridge it to post here! The production of the signal box diagrams is pretty well documented. That too went through style changes over the years. Knowing the timeframe and the changes to the station layout leading up to it, It is possible to make a reasonable reproduction diagram, including pasted on alterations, and have it printed on a modern wide-format printer. For example I did this a while ago: 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 7 hours ago, Harlequin said: HI Andy, The book, "GWR Signalling Practice", contains a reproduction of the GWR painting instructions for 1907, including all lever colours at that time. The text describes how that colour system changed over time into the BR(WR) era. Sorry but it's a bit too much text to work out what the painting scheme was for, say, a 1930s timeframe and abridge it to post here! The production of the signal box diagrams is pretty well documented. That too went through style changes over the years. Knowing the timeframe and the changes to the station layout leading up to it, It is possible to make a reasonable reproduction diagram, including pasted on alterations, and have it printed on a modern wide-format printer. For example I did this a while ago: Phil, thanks for that, I will try and find a copy. eBay and Amazon both currently not showing any but hopefully a copy will turn up. I really like your diagram - what software did you use for it? I have a much cruder version drawn for Helston in AnyRail. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 8 hours ago, Andy Keane said: Also I have seen photos with multi coloured levers, black and blue, some with white stripes or chevrons, etc. So quite keen to understand more for general interest. BTW I recently travelled to Inverness and various sections up there still had semaphore signals and working mechanical boxes, apparently they are listed! Who knew. The multi-coloured levers can indicate various things. Here in the box I have red over yellow levers, these tell me at a glance that the lever works the home signal and the distant (they are both colour light signals). I have a red over brown lever, which is the direction release lever for trains over the single line, but could also be for ground frame release. I have a blue over black lever, which is a point lever that has a combined facing point lock (in this case a set of clamp-lock points, but could be a mechanical set with economical facing point locks). Levers with chevons on them (generally white with black chevrons) are detonator placers, the chevrons are actually arrows, and point up for the up road, down for the down road. AFAIAA there are none of these left on the Network Rail network now. Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 1 minute ago, uax6 said: The multi-coloured levers can indicate various things. Here in the box I have red over yellow levers, these tell me at a glance that the lever works the home signal and the distant (they are both colour light signals). I have a red over brown lever, which is the direction release lever for trains over the single line, but could also be for ground frame release. I have a blue over black lever, which is a point lever that has a combined facing point lock (in this case a set of clamp-lock points, but could be a mechanical set with economical facing point locks). Levers with chevons on them (generally white with black chevrons) are detonator placers, the chevrons are actually arrows, and point up for the up road, down for the down road. AFAIAA there are none of these left on the Network Rail network now. Andy G Thanks for this. I am beginning to get a sense of the wide range used. It would be nice to compile a table of these variations in this thread. If I make a start hopefully more knowledgeable folk will chip in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 (edited) how about this? https://modratech.com/mud_lev01.php About the only thing I'd disagree with is the use of yellow for electrical isolation collars, we use green ones... Andy G Edited July 6, 2021 by uax6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, uax6 said: how about this? https://modratech.com/mud_lev01.php About the only thing I'd disagree with is the use of yellow for electrical isolation collars, we use green ones... Andy G I cannot get that link to work. What about posting a spreadsheet? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 (edited) Humm.... Its the same as the web address.... The table is the same here: https://lever-frame.co.uk/index.php/lever-colours Cut and paste into your browser... Andy G Edited July 6, 2021 by uax6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, uax6 said: Humm.... Its the same as the web address.... The table is the same here: https://lever-frame.co.uk/index.php/lever-colours Cut and paste into your browser... Andy G Ah yes. Thanks. My next problem will be to work out what some of the functions are! What is a scotch, or a king lever or indeed a detonator in this context. Obvious to a signaller no doubt but not to a newbie like me. I need that book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2021 A scotch is a bit of timber that can be moved across a rail to prevent things running out of a siding onto the running line, still used in depots, but are generally steel now. A King lever is a lever that locks the whole frame, not used very often. A detonator is the disc that goes on the rail head that goes bang as the train rolls over it to act as a message to stop. Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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