Secondhand prices

[Poggy1165]

Just shows how people with no knowledge, should ask someone (even the rip off merchant!) before assuming!

 

I recall a case, some years ago, of a quite famous modeller in EM. His relatives insisted his models should go to auction. Unfortunately the auction they chose was somewhere obscure (like Fleetwood) and the sale was not made known to the modelling community. As a result his quite lovely models were sold for buttons. The modelling friends his family turned away would almost certainly have paid substantially more.

 

I suppose we ought all to leave detailed advice for those who may inherit from us as most non-railway people won't have a clue. The danger may be that they think they do!

[Clive Mortimore]

I know that my collection stuff is only worth what the purchaser will pay for it but I feel I am lucky as one of my kids use to take quite a lot of interest in my train set, even came to shows as an operator etc. so has an idea of what should be a fair return. I thought I would be helpful for my wife and the other one by leaving the price tags on the boxes but without a date of purchase the price is meaningless. They do know as a guide a shop or swapmeet trader will pay about half the price of what they would get should/when they sell it.

[Kenton]

Does it really matter what the beneficiaries get? If they are daft enough to sell it undervalue then they get what they get and will still probably be better off. To those who make a killing or pick up a bargain they will also be happy. I just do not see what the fuss is about, once dead we are all well beyond caring. If you want to be a control freak you need to do it before you die. If it just ends up in the tip then it will just go to increase the value/rarity of others. Enjoy your models while you still have life in you to do so, and just be thankful.

[Colin_McLeod]

Well said Kenton

[Nearholmer]

Sometimes I think that an equally important question is: will it go to someone who will appreciate and enjoy it?

 

Books (er, I have collected far too many over nearly fifty years!) aren't such an issue, because the way the secondhand book trade works, specialist stuff either goes direct to a specialist dealer, or finds its way there, and hence to aficionados.

 

Models are a bitter more difficult - very hard to guarantee finding the right future-owner.

 

Kevin

[Kenton]

 

very hard to guarantee finding the right future-owner.

Kevin

Sorry Kevin, I just do not understand this "right" future owner. I also don't get why, or even how, anyone should care once they are dead.

 

If your prize possession is sold to someone, as opposed to being buried in land fill, then surely the purchaser values that possession no matter who they are?

 

If you wish to be selective in who takes possession of that item then you need to take appropriate steps to ensure that you give, sell, or specifically bequeath that item before you die? Even if you bequeath it in a will do not assume that it will end there as wills get contested and the new owner might not remain Mr/Mrs Right.

 

Over the years I have been bequeathed many a prize possession that have gone straight on ebay or to the tip. Illustrating very well that one person's prize possession is another person's tat. Although I'll admit I'm not Mr Right and none of these items were model railway related.

[Nearholmer]

Kenton

 

Simply that if I have enjoyed something, I would like someone else to enjoy it too - the "right" person would; the "wrong" person would stick it in a skip.

 

Perhaps this is why I rather like old model trains - they come with a history.

 

And yes, once I'm dead, I will neither know nor care, but this is more about the enjoyment of the next person.

 

Kevin

[hayfield]

Kevin

 

I can see where Kenton is coming from, but also where you are coming from 

 

I would like my daughter to keep an item or two which I have made,

Then some items to someone else who would enjoy/care/use them

Thankfully my son-in-law is savey enough to sell the rest, perhaps keeping the tools which he can use

Hopefully not to much will be sent to the dump

[Kenton]

I would just like to enjoy my possessions for as long as possible - after that I will be beyond caring. Until then they are not for sale but are for my enjoyment. If someone sells them after I'm gone then it is their problem not mine and they may have a different take on who is right or wrong. Though I guess anyone prepared to pay anything is going to place some value on them.

 

I do understand the desire of many to pass on something of themselves to their nearest and dearest but I just cannot rationalise that with my beliefs. If I did want to do something so specific (eg my wife wants to pass on her grandmother's wedding ring as a "family heirloom" then not only is it in the will but it will probably be gifted long before death. Neither daughter has expressed a desire for it as an "heirloom" and would only sell it. So it is destined for a niece, but who knows what will happen then.)

 

Certainly if we wish to control a small part of destiny we do need to make our intentions clear and plan accordingly. We never know how otherwise destiny will play its cards and that No 7 bus could be waiting to pounce from just round the next corner.

 

enough of this morbidity and back to scanning ebay for some bargain unwanted tat to accumulate.

[jonhall]

 

Books (er, I have collected far too many over nearly fifty years!) aren't such an issue, because the way the secondhand book trade works, specialist stuff either goes direct to a specialist dealer, or finds its way there, and hence to aficionados.

 

 

There is an interesting article in one of the magazines I've just been browsing in Smiffs (Steam Railway IIRC), the gist of which is that you might find your valuable reference library is worth little more than pulp, because all those who might want it have already got a copy, and everyone is reaching an age where downsizing or estate clearance is the future. Our club is clearing an estate, and the OPC's etc just aren't shifting.

 

Jon

 

Jon

[Matt Roe]

On that basis, I don't see that the value of used models is in any way contributing to a decline in the hobby but I would say that it may be a factor in pricing it out of reach or discouraging interest in it by the younger generation, which may ultimately have the effect in the future.

 

 

I know that I am resurrecting a two year old thread - but on the subject of secondhand prices:

 

I've recently (finally) built a simple test track / round-and-round layout so that I can run locos round for my daughter and her various cousins etc. I have a collection of locos, but all of them are converted to DCC apart from one 20+ year old Hornby 0-6-0 pannier tank that I left as analogue. The pickups are a bit useless so I started to look around for something a little larger with more pickups so that running would be smoother.

 

I've been really surprised at the price of secondhand models - they all seem to be fetching a premium. I can only put this down to (a) the price of new models and (b) the larger(?) number of people wanting to 'collect them all'. When you can buy a Railroad A1 from Hattons for £55 and a King from Kernow at £70 then some of the secondhand prices seem crazy. Admittedly the prices mention are at discount, but if you are just looking for a larger loco (as in my case) it makes anything secondhand seem unattractively priced. But it also seem mad to buy a new model, because surely a secondhand loco should suffice.

 

It seems you can get nothing decent for less that £40-45 - the amount of what I would regard as 'tat' that is listed for £30+ on ebay and the big box shifters sites is plentiful. Am I being wishful here - but where are the decent secondhand locos for £30? It seems that if you own locos that you bought 10 years ago they will give you a good return - because new models have increase in price so much.

 

However I agree with RANGERS - it makes the price of entry high for new entrants to the hobby.

 

Am I missing something here?

[The Johnster]

Secondhand sellers obviously want to get the best price possible, but I agree that some of the eBay prices seem unfeasiblly close to what you would pay for a brand new loco that can be returned under warranty if there is anything wrong with it.  I would certainly recommend to anyone starting out in the hobby to buy brand new if possible, as what might be a bargain to me (e.g. my 2721 for a fiver that ran like a 3 legged dog with legs from 3 different dogs but which I have re-conditioned into a tidy performer) might well be a money draining lump of scrap to a newbie; get a bit of experience in taking things apart and putting them back together before you venture into the general dodginess of second hand...

[Matt Roe]

I agree Johnster, and £5 is about right for the model you describe, but when others seem to want to charge £30 for models that do not run and 'need work' it seems to be getting a bit silly. But then if you are of the mindset that you must have that particular model - then I supposed someone will pay the asking price.

[RANGERS]

I don't think the prices of used kit on-line are really a reflection of what used rolling stock is really worth, used equipment will only sell for what someone is willing to pay and judging by the slow turnover of stock in some of the better known outlets, the prices being asked are significantly higher than the level required to persuade enough buyers to part with their cash. Collectable models, limited editions which are unobtainable new, would predictably be the ones to hold their value and move fastest but even those are struggling. Where the new equivalent has seen a steep increase, and a lot of them have, then I can understand the pricing to a degree but all too often the used price being asked relies on a perceived rarity rather than what someone will ultimately pay, and as a result they sit on the shelf.

 

One example at the top end was a used SLW 24 in plain green, a version out of stock new but still moderately desirable, which was £320 new, priced in as new condition with one of the larger emporiums at £275. To be fair, that didn't seem out of order but it sat there for over two months and eventually took a 20% promotional discount to shift it for £220. fair comment it was appealing to a limited market, but clearly the market thought it was too expensive.

 

There are bargains to be found, but they are generally from private sales or in the shops who take a more realistic view of the price something is likely to sell for within a reasonable timeframe. One shop I use quite often doesn't list on the web but sells a fair amount of used items in store, and has a very rapid turnover of stock thanks to taking a minimal margin on the used in order to ensure it doesn't take up valuable store space for any great length of time. Notably, the prices he pays for used are on a par with larger outlets. An example of this was a Hornby L1 tank which I bought there in October for £60, an example of which is on the website of one of the large stores today for £90. The cost of marketing has to be recovered, resulting in a higher margin so the prices are higher so stock sticks for longer etc, etc.

 

Never assume that just because your favourite outlet is asking a certain price for something, that that's what its actually worth.

Edited January 14, 2018 by RANGERS

[The Johnster]

Incidentally, and I know I've told the story here before, the 2721 was not acquired on line, but second hand at my very good local model shop Lord and Butler (usual disclaimer and unashamed plug for their show next Saturday).  It was in the s/h cabinet for £35 and failed it's test run; with no other example in the shop to replace it Peter said he was going to chuck it, at which point I offered him a fiver as seen, which he took.  I reckoned that, as it did actually run after a fashion I could probably get it running, but it was a bit of a punt of a sort not advisable to newbies.

 

Got it home and stripped down to components; it was gunged up by over zealous lubing and responded well to thorough cleaning and a proper re-lubing.  One of the springs which form the suspension for the rear axle was a bit rough at the end, and filing this further improved the running.  I've worked it up a bit with a new chimney, safety valve cover, and repaint into G W R austerity black livery to represent 2761 in her last days at Tondu, withdrawn 1950 in this livery which she must have received in about 1945 or 6.  I have a nice little engine for a fiver, some parts from a dead Westward 64xx kit, and a bit of faffing.  

 

She is not for sale!

[woodenhead]

As new prices drift (well more like hike) upwards then naturally second hand prices will follow, it's supply and demand.

 

A lot of my locos were bought secondhand but at around the £90 to £100 mark - some more some less obviously but that's what I expect to pay for an excellent condition DCC ready NEM socket steam engine.

[APOLLO]

Thrutchers and Twichers is what I call locos that barely move when powered. Usually worth a fiver, and I can usually get them to work as The Johnster describes above - had quite a few, some for only a quid, some given to me also. If they cannot be made to work I strip em for spares, the rest is off to my model scrapyard !!.

 

Some of the locos for sale by the Liverpool boxshifter are just no -no's, certainly not worth the asking price given the description of some, I only buy occasional new bargains from them (and I have always had good service from them I must add).

 

Yes books and mags are seemingly worth little today. I insure my model railway and book collections together, (I use magnet model insurance), insured value is based on replacement cost equal to what I paid for them. What they are worth (or not) will be of little concern when I'm aboard the last "westbound".

 

Some good stuff is available on ebay - but again be careful. I've just bought some as new O gauge Weaver American freight cars, special run paint jobs, boxed for £30 each - a bargain considering the size of them compared to the size and cost of British O scale.

 

Brit15

[Poggy1165]

I recently had the "privilege" of inspecting some O Gauge models that ranged from junk to average-at-best. The vendor seemed to think they were worth a great deal of money. I suppose it depends on the potential buyer. This potential buyer said thanks but no thanks. The next chap along might think "bargain".

 

There are, I think, two types of second-hand dealers. Those who want to sell the stuff for a reasonable price and make a quick sale. And those who decide something is worth £500, and wait patiently for someone to offer at least £495. You see exactly the same tactics in the world of books, for example.

[PatB]

I don't think the prices of used kit on-line are really a reflection of what used rolling stock is really worth, used equipment will only sell for what someone is willing to pay and judging by the slow turnover of stock in some of the better known outlets, the prices being asked are significantly higher than the level required to persuade enough buyers to part with their cash. Collectable models, limited editions which are unobtainable new, would predictably be the ones to hold their value and move fastest but even those are struggling. Where the new equivalent has seen a steep increase, and a lot of them have, then I can understand the pricing to a degree but all too often the used price being asked relies on a perceived rarity rather than what someone will ultimately pay, and as a result they sit on the shelf.

 

One example at the top end was a used SLW 24 in plain green, a version out of stock new but still moderately desirable, which was £320 new, priced in as new condition with one of the larger emporiums at £275. To be fair, that didn't seem out of order but it sat there for over two months and eventually took a 20% promotional discount to shift it for £220. fair comment it was appealing to a limited market, but clearly the market thought it was too expensive.

 

There are bargains to be found, but they are generally from private sales or in the shops who take a more realistic view of the price something is likely to sell for within a reasonable timeframe. One shop I use quite often doesn't list on the web but sells a fair amount of used items in store, and has a very rapid turnover of stock thanks to taking a minimal margin on the used in order to ensure it doesn't take up valuable store space for any great length of time. Notably, the prices he pays for used are on a par with larger outlets. An example of this was a Hornby L1 tank which I bought there in October for £60, an example of which is on the website of one of the large stores today for £90. The cost of marketing has to be recovered, resulting in a higher margin so the prices are higher so stock sticks for longer etc, etc.

 

Never assume that just because your favourite outlet is asking a certain price for something, that that's what its actually worth.

 

All entirely true, but a bit depressing for those of us for whom online outlets are the only realistic option. Yes, we do have secondhand dealers over here but their prices can match the dafter realms of Ebay and a lot of the stock is, frankly, tat. 

[Dunsignalling]

I think it depends on what you are seeking from the second-hand market.

 

If you are looking for a "bargain", then buyer beware. The meaning of the word tends to be subjective. I'd be cagey about buying via the net without previous experience of the vendor or extremely good satisfaction ratings. 

 

I normally prefer to buy at swap-meets and exhibitions where I can physically inspect the goods but I have bought s/h from both Rails and Hatton's to my complete satisfaction. In all cases, the hard-to-find, discontinued, models purchased have met or exceeded any expectations raised by their descriptions. One loco in particular (from Hatton's) was mind-bogglingly perfect. The prices have been above what the models cost new, but only by 10-15% and well below what many ebay operators were asking for them. 

 

Suits me.

 

John

Edited January 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[hayfield]

I think it depends on what you are seeking from the second-hand market.

 

If you are looking for a "bargain", then buyer beware. The meaning of the word tends to be subjective. I'd be cagey about buying via the net without previous experience of the vendor or extremely good satisfaction ratings. 

 

I normally prefer to buy at swap-meets and exhibitions where I can physically inspect the goods but I have bought s/h from both Rails and Hatton's to my complete satisfaction. In all cases, the hard-to-find, discontinued, models purchased have met or exceeded any expectations raised by their descriptions. One loco in particular (from Hatton's) was mind-bogglingly perfect. The prices have been above what the models cost new, but only by 10-15% and well below what many ebay operators were asking for them. 

 

Suits me.

 

John

 

 

People forget that buying from eBay if the goods do not match the description you can ask for a full refund.

 

As with any auction most sellers want maximum resell value, those looking for bargains have to sift through these items then follow ones which are in their price range and buy accordingly.

 

Look for items which are badly presented, every now and then little gems pop up.

 

If you are a seller what you get is normally dictated by the quality of the listing. On the other hand be realistic on what you are selling, and market forces (most books re not selling for much) alter over time

[Dunsignalling]

People forget that buying from eBay if the goods do not match the description you can ask for a full refund.

 

As with any auction most sellers want maximum resell value, those looking for bargains have to sift through these items then follow ones which are in their price range and buy accordingly.

 

Look for items which are badly presented, every now and then little gems pop up.

 

If you are a seller what you get is normally dictated by the quality of the listing. On the other hand be realistic on what you are selling, and market forces (most books re not selling for much) alter over time

True, but there's no way I'm going to pay more to somebody unknown to me than to a trader with whom I've previously had satisfactory dealings.

 

I'm not someone who spends hours trawling the net for things, if I can't find what I'm looking for in about 10 minutes I assume there aren't any about.

 

Most books seem to go for little more than the cost of postage nowadays and I've lately filled quite a few long-standing gaps in my collection, mainly sourced via Amazon Market Place and Magpie.

 

John  

Edited January 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

To be fair to eBay, not something it is in my nature to do but let's just run with it for now, many models are sold quite honestly and reasonably as 'spares or repair', which is fair enough

 

The laws of supply and demand are seen in operation red in tooth and claw here; if the item is in the least desirable it will command a high, often unreasonably high price, but the trouble is that some sellers' definition of desirable is, to say the least, 'informed' by their conception of rarity and quality.  

 

How many times has this happened to you; you are in a pub or similar scenario and the fact that you are a railway modeller comes up in conversation.  Somebody pipes up with 'yeah, I've got an old Hornby set in the attic, the old 3 rail, marvellous models weren't they.  I suppose it must be worth a bit now, these things are collectable, aren't they?  One went on telly the other day for thousands (no it didn't).  It's got 2 coaches and a green engine with a sloping front; how much do you think it's worth?  There's a few scratches, like, and I don't know if it works...  It's all solid metal, you know, they made things proper in those days'.

 

Then, when you give them a reasonable estimate of this crude outdated toy's lack of value (you might get about £25 for it on eBay if everything is in perfect and working condition and in the original box, which must also be in perfect condition), they are either disappointed or assume you are trying to rip them off and are making an offer.  I usually just tell them to keep it for nostalgia value and try to get it running on a winter afternoon when there's nothing else to do in the hope it'll distract the grandkids from the computer for 5 minutes...

 

There are a lot of unrealistic hopes out there, and a completely unregulated market.  The aforementioned Lord and Butler has a large secondhand section with prices that can usually be beaten on eBay, but you can physically examine the model and Peter or Adrian will not let you take it out of the shop until it has been satisfactorily test run; you can drive it yourself to ensure you are satisfied.  In these circumstances I don't mind paying top dollar!

 

I appreciate of course that I am very lucky to have such a good shop in my locality, and that many of you have to rely on delivered items for your shopping.  The Liverpool box shifter is probably your best bet, as there is at least a proper guarantee.  But I will repeat my advice to anyone without experience in fettling a model; buy new and avoid the rough and tumble of the secondhand world, shark infested waters.

[hayfield]

It depends simply on supply and demand, what is "on trend" at the moment and also how an item is presented.

 

10 years ago I got silly money for both a HD Co Bo and a motorised electric coach, both very play worn, the latter missing a couple of coach bogie sides but had boxes, now better items are worth a quarter what I was paid for them. On the other hand some discontinued kits fetch far more now.

 

I kept far away from Wrenn locos, stupid money they were fetching

 

Its the way the market works 

[woodenhead]

Remember when Lima commanded premium second hand prices