First generation DMU questions

[Tim H]

Best strange formation I can remember was the day the WR were short of stock and made up a rake of a 121 "Bubble", two 121 driving trailers and a 128 DPU (Purely for traction purposes) on a Thames Valley suburban working..

[russ p]

The 3 cars were probably on the last Whitby with about 6 people on the whole train!

[adanapress]

And in East Anglia they towed a van or two from time to time

[Market65]

And in East Anglia they towed a van or two from time to time

As they did on the Hull to Bridlington service.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[Andy W]

Just to muddy the waters slightly, there was one exception to this: the hydraulic units of class 127 were originally coded as blue square but later changed to red triangle (re-used after the original Derby Lightweights of that code had long gone). They could work with blue square units but with special provisions for the gear changing on the blue square unit(s). That also means that class 127 trailers and blue square trailers could be used interchangeably - one of the preserved railways does indeed mix these types on occasions.

 

The change of code came about because at the time the 127s were still coded blue square there was a failure caused by the blue square unit being attached at the back of the class 127. Being diesel hydraulic, there were no gear changes or gear changing apparatus on the 127, so the poor old blue square unit at the back was being forced to run at higher speeds still in first gear. Surprisingly, this was not very good for it mechanically!!     In most respects the two types were still compatible, and the MU cabling through the centre trailers would have been identical as far as the signals they were carrying.

The Great Central has two 127 power cars that normally run coupled back to back. On special occasions, such as Bonfire Night shuttles, they are mixed and matched with 101 vehicles to make a five car rake. It's normal then to either couple a 101 vehicle on each outer end to avoid the non-changing gears problem or provide two drivers so the 101 and 127 units then effectively don't multiple at all but the driver in the leading cab does the braking. Of course the maximum speed of 25 mph does reduce the potential gearbox damage.

[M51625]

It wasn't because of the lack of gear changing equipment, it was because the driver (in the 127) drove the unit as normal (for a hydraulic unit), and forgot about the poor old mechanical set at the back and as a result of being dragged around in 4th gear constantly, the gearboxes overheated and in some cases caused fires.

 

127s have all the wiring and controls to change gear, this can be used in multiple (i've done it), what you can't prevent it the driver doing it wrong and simply forgetting.

 

127s are wired as a blue square units as per all other blue square units, they became red triangle to act as a reminder to drivers of the different drive train set up. The 127s don't have engine rpm gauges in the cab so judging when to change gear was done on the speedo, which in some 127s was coloured in segments to aid this.

[eastwestdivide]

Going back to Newcastle, isn't there a shot of a 4-car Metro-Cammell unit crossing the bridges in the opening credits to the classic sitcom Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads?

 

Not very clear, but at about 0:25 here on Youtube: 

Edited October 28, 2015 by eastwestdivide

[kenw]

The 3 cars were probably on the last Whitby with about 6 people on the whole train!

Were 3-cars or power-twins required on Whitby for Nunthorpe bank?

[russ p]

Were 3-cars or power-twins required on Whitby for Nunthorpe bank?

Yeah, I don't think power trailer sets worked up there but not 100%

[Market65]

I only recall power twins.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[Stuart]

Going back to late 60’s and early 70s, the school trains on the Esk Valley (0720ish from Middlesbrough and 4.08 ish back from Whitby) were a four-car set and a power twin.  The four-car set normally sat in the centre siding at Whitby until required for the return school train. I think everything else in the normal timetable was power twins although I am sure I remember three-car sets on their own – maybe they were the summer extras from Newcastle? From talking to a friend (ex Darlington driver) I think two power to one trailer was the minimum ratio on account, as kenw suggests, of Nunthorpe bank (1/44?).

Around 1976-77, the last Middlesbrough-Whitby was the power twin off the 1608 ex-Whitby. Pretty well used, at least as far as Nunthorpe.

And whilst I was waiting at the Boro for the last Whitby, there was a Saltburn train with a van attached which was loaded at Middlesbrough – I think it was a four-wheeled van so PMV or CCT.

 

Regards

 

Stuart

Were 3-cars or power-twins required on Whitby for Nunthorpe bank?

[Market65]

Here is a funny thing. This is a screen cap showing a class 101 DMCL at Newcastle in the mid-sixties. It shows a 'Lightweight' roof section. If you look at the vents, they are the giveaway. I wonder what was the story? There are two rows of vents instead of three rows, and the car is blue square.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

 

[Tim H]

There were mixed passenger/parcels trains on the WR Thames Valley services using a 128 DPU running in multiple with a 117 set.  The 128 shuttled back and forth on it's own between Paddington and Reading during the day, but ran combined with passenger DMUs in the peak, presumably to save a train path.

 

Not sure of the exact working, but it ran into the sector era in the late 80s with the 128 in Royal Mail livery and the 117 in NSE.  Think the practice of a parcels van as tail traffic had ended long before then,

[sub39h]

There were mixed passenger/parcels trains on the WR Thames Valley services using a 128 DPU running in multiple with a 117 set. The 128 shuttled back and forth on it's own between Paddington and Reading during the day, but ran combined with passenger DMUs in the peak, presumably to save a train path.

 

Not sure of the exact working, but it ran into the sector era in the late 80s with the 128 in Royal Mail livery and the 117 in NSE. Think the practice of a parcels van as tail traffic had ended long before then,

I've seen a photo of exactly that - an NSE 117 with RM Red 128 at Ealing Broadway I think. Here's a similar photo but not the one I recall seeing:

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p772490069/h79C44A66

Edited November 4, 2015 by sub39h

[Clive Mortimore]

Here is a funny thing. This is a screen cap showing a class 101 DMCL at Newcastle in the mid-sixties. It shows a 'Lightweight' roof section. If you look at the vents, they are the giveaway. I wonder what was the story? There are two rows of vents instead of three rows, and the car is blue square.

vlcsnap-2011-12-06-21h38m47s129 - Copy.jpg

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

Hi Rob

 

Maybe some research is needed but could the early batch(es) of blue square Met-Cams have had only two rows of vents?

[Porcy Mane]

Hi Rob

 

Maybe some research is needed but could the early batch(es) of blue square Met-Cams have had only two rows of vents?

Certainly not definitive but this add of an early NE region 101 from a railway Gazette seems to show 3 rows.

I wonder if it was one the cars that was involved in the Leeds collision in1961. I seem to remember from published photographs the roofs of the DMU were badly damaged. Maybe it was a repair or replacement roof?

 

P

Edited November 4, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[Market65]

Thank you, Porcy Mane. That will be the answer! Again, thank you. Mystery solved!

 

With best regards,

 

Rob.

[sub39h]

Just out of interest, was a Class 128 ever used instead of a driving car in a hybrid unit?

[SRman]

Short answer: yes, that has happened. Especially later in the lives of first-gen DMUs, there were many varied scratch formations made up just to keep things running.

[Market65]

How about a class 128, then class 108 TSL and DMSL? Or a variation of that?

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[Clive Mortimore]

Certainly not definitive but this add of an early NE region 101 from a railway Gazette seems to show 3 rows.

100.jpg

I wonder if it was one the cars that was involved in the Leeds collision in1961. I seem to remember from published photographs the roofs of the DMU were badly damaged. Maybe it was a repair or replacement roof?

 

P

Hi Porcy and Rob

 

I am still looking at early Met-Cam units roofs and I haven't found another one with only two rows of vents.

[luckymucklebackit]

Anyone one this forum know why class 101s allocated to South Gosforth were fitted with barred droplights?  Was there a route around Newcastle that had restricted clearances?

 

Jim

[kenw]

Anyone one this forum know why class 101s allocated to South Gosforth were fitted with barred droplights?  Was there a route around Newcastle that had restricted clearances?

 

Jim

That rings a bell about something to do with one of the tunnels in the area.

I suspect either North Shields or Tyne Dock, although as both the Tynemouth and South Shields lines were closed for Metro conversion by the time I passed I never worked either route.

 

I think probably North Shields, can't find anything specific to either regards window bars in my '72 or '79 Sectional Appendix, but the '79 one has a note for North Shields tunnel,

"Rule Book Section S clause 3.3 and Block Regulation 9 apply." Anyone know if this refers to restricted clearances? Could be a clue, don't know if I still have my '72 Rule Book.

 

Also, would be useful if anyone knows when this came into effect, not from new as both pictures of Newcastle sets which prompted the roof vents discussion above, and on the front cover of BR Fleet Survey 8 DMUs', all in green are without bars, the Durham bound blue 104 pictured in the same book does have them

[russ p]

That sort of rings a bell with me too.

The green ones probably didn't have them as EMUs worked the line then. Did they have bars?

[kenw]

That sort of rings a bell with me too.

The green ones probably didn't have them as EMUs worked the line then. Did they have bars?

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. If it was the North Shields tunnel, the North Tynesides were worked by the LNER EMUs which had sliding doors, and from what I've heard were often open anyway!

The South Tynesides, through Tyne Dock, would have had the BR built EMUs