First generation DMU questions

[GordonC]

This seems like the best place to ask a question about first generation DMU's so here I go!

 

Has anyone got a photo of a class 110/108 mixed unit?

 

Thanks in advance if anyone can find me such a formation.

 

Chris

 

I could only find examples where the centre car was swapped and not driving ends

 

Class 108 centre car

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/7116803683/in/photolist-bQTtMM-8V2sB5-B6B7-oTDdfV-pbx6Xs-qCCXMQ-qUqCP1-pWMd3n-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-58QEx9-Rq1Xm6-fm8Zfw-fkTPmt-fm8Zjs-cNGLhG-fm8ZhA-fkTPjr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-bcSV9t-qtFuWD-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-ejjwh1-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-aVt6DM

 

Class 110 centre car

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/skiddaw_d3/8739948776/in/photolist-ejjwh1-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-aVt6DM-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-aVt4yv-pXHPC2-aVx3wB-qBhF2w-dqhhqu-qTH9Cn-qB8MbH-rgUZot-aVt8Tc-qUvcrk-dnQHZ1-qCC2qy-7N1ALq-pXNeV3-oUELSb-pWMhDr-qBetaJ-qVn99D-ceNQ6b-qTpnMp-fKpE36-pV3qRu-7NcPgw-e1zt1v-n2k5Ht-qBeups-jDEzzu-qUme16-oshUYY-gBQJUC-aVt33x-dqhsJS-dqh7MF-puowVU-rgRz3h-dqhtp2-S95X71-aVsXZK-rgRAqh

[Chris116]

Many thanks for the replies which mean that my class 110 DMBC and TSL will now run with my class 108 DMC(L) as a three car unit untill I can find the extra cars to complete the two units correctly.

[GordonC]

Many thanks for the replies which mean that my class 110 DMBC and TSL will now run with my class 108 DMC(L) as a three car unit untill I can find the extra cars to complete the two units correctly.

 

depending on what stock you have, also a Class 110 with 101 middle car

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/15443396046/in/photolist-pwFrB5-qCCXMQ-qUqCP1-pWMd3n-oTo5xh-cWgavw-ib8h1o-8tJweS-cARatd-k8WgSK-9NHN3X-pCx5cT-dHBGp7-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-bvvFmV-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-cLXNJy-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-4YyrmM-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-cd4q23-aVt4yv

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcarter/5779567467/in/photolist-9NHN3X-pCx5cT-dHBGp7-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-bvvFmV-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-cLXNJy-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-4YyrmM-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-cd4q23-aVt4yv-pXHPC2-aVx3wB-bX3ADZ-qmk7XG-9TXJBR-8mMZNS-gTyaUo-dMQ3Zx-bzK1cy-fqGnCL

 

and possibly the only example of a Class 110 driving car working with anything else ... mixed with a Class 101 at the other end

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dodger5450/12560583515/in/photolist-k8WgSK-9NHN3X-pCx5cT-dHBGp7-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-bvvFmV-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-cLXNJy-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-4YyrmM-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-cd4q23-aVt4yv-pXHPC2-aVx3wB-bX3ADZ-qmk7XG-9TXJBR-8mMZNS-gTyaUo-dMQ3Zx-bzK1cy

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/26871365@N04/12036856823/in/photolist-jkE3bc-mN8W5i-6LfZJC-iqzbQq-6GtLzK-r2RHWG-eh1Wu8-nEJDGC-bVyVyU-quYAF3-6jM1hM-qSaoxb-qBU6Nh-pX1B6b-aVt4Q4-qjWdd3-aVtdMD-qZnoHN-4L9boh-pX1GaQ-qCC4py-7cXpab-qVhAYs-aVt2R2-biZa9H-aVx3AT-jDBzKK-aVx1J4-5Nzq4v-aVt6Uv-ritZFB-aVt3dr-3yfddn-aVtdeP-bxwBLY-pWS56w-qZw1Lx-aVtcVF-EFWySY-8MMf41-aVx1sB-qB7jsr-aVt3NH-ddboDS-qEsV4x-aVtk5x-aVx31X-x4tp6L-bvvEqV-pgryTi

 

and Class 101 with 110 centre car

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/32083860880/in/photolist-QT9b4b-aVtju6-aVt4Kc-pXey8k-aVtarR-qBerFb-aVtdoF-iFBwXC-biZ1VF-otpeeC-jkE3bc-mN8W5i-6LfZJC-iqzbQq-6GtLzK-r2RHWG-eh1Wu8-nEJDGC-bVyVyU-quYAF3-6jM1hM-qSaoxb-qBU6Nh-pX1B6b-aVt4Q4-qjWdd3-aVtdMD-qZnoHN-4L9boh-pX1GaQ-qCC4py-7cXpab-qVhAYs-aVt2R2-biZa9H-aVx3AT-jDBzKK-aVx1J4-5Nzq4v-aVt6Uv-ritZFB-aVt3dr-3yfddn-aVtdeP-bxwBLY-pWS56w-qZw1Lx-aVtcVF-EFWySY-8MMf41

 

With the frequency that Class 110 driving ends were kept together and not used in mixed sets I cant help thinking there would have been a reason for it. They certainly seem to feature less in mixed sets than other DMU types. Although I'm not sure why it would be different to a Class 110 twin set being used with any other type of DMU set

[keefer]

possibly down to the 110s having 360hp engines instead of the more usual 300hp?

if the extra power was required for certain routes, it would make sense to keep them together.

[leopardml2341]

possibly down to the 110s having 360hp engines instead of the more usual 300hp?

if the extra power was required for certain routes, it would make sense to keep them together.

They were intended for the Calder Valley trans-pennine rout, plenty of hills there

[SRman]

depending on what stock you have, also a Class 110 with 101 middle car

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/15443396046/in/photolist-pwFrB5-qCCXMQ-qUqCP1-pWMd3n-oTo5xh-cWgavw-ib8h1o-8tJweS-cARatd-k8WgSK-9NHN3X-pCx5cT-dHBGp7-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-bvvFmV-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-cLXNJy-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-4YyrmM-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-cd4q23-aVt4yv

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcarter/5779567467/in/photolist-9NHN3X-pCx5cT-dHBGp7-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-bvvFmV-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-cLXNJy-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-4YyrmM-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-cd4q23-aVt4yv-pXHPC2-aVx3wB-bX3ADZ-qmk7XG-9TXJBR-8mMZNS-gTyaUo-dMQ3Zx-bzK1cy-fqGnCL

 

and possibly the only example of a Class 110 driving car working with anything else ... mixed with a Class 101 at the other end

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dodger5450/12560583515/in/photolist-k8WgSK-9NHN3X-pCx5cT-dHBGp7-psNfCm-pvhaWK-qCm2wP-qUsrki-qBrmRp-aVtjX4-aVt5Nk-qUsmVr-bvvFmV-apL9WG-qTRLcc-a1SWyr-6PLhmT-avZUVo-aVt1ce-aVsZAx-cLXNJy-aVx3nF-SHPwsi-qCKtSP-aVx2PR-qTMJeM-4NEsAu-5TgmiJ-8xGjRs-4YyrmM-ehp7uM-97Jbad-aVsYvg-dnzPFf-qCkV3g-aVti6p-p5Aau4-qUv6Se-aVtfpg-cd4q23-aVt4yv-pXHPC2-aVx3wB-bX3ADZ-qmk7XG-9TXJBR-8mMZNS-gTyaUo-dMQ3Zx-bzK1cy

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/26871365@N04/12036856823/in/photolist-jkE3bc-mN8W5i-6LfZJC-iqzbQq-6GtLzK-r2RHWG-eh1Wu8-nEJDGC-bVyVyU-quYAF3-6jM1hM-qSaoxb-qBU6Nh-pX1B6b-aVt4Q4-qjWdd3-aVtdMD-qZnoHN-4L9boh-pX1GaQ-qCC4py-7cXpab-qVhAYs-aVt2R2-biZa9H-aVx3AT-jDBzKK-aVx1J4-5Nzq4v-aVt6Uv-ritZFB-aVt3dr-3yfddn-aVtdeP-bxwBLY-pWS56w-qZw1Lx-aVtcVF-EFWySY-8MMf41-aVx1sB-qB7jsr-aVt3NH-ddboDS-qEsV4x-aVtk5x-aVx31X-x4tp6L-bvvEqV-pgryTi

 

and Class 101 with 110 centre car

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/32083860880/in/photolist-QT9b4b-aVtju6-aVt4Kc-pXey8k-aVtarR-qBerFb-aVtdoF-iFBwXC-biZ1VF-otpeeC-jkE3bc-mN8W5i-6LfZJC-iqzbQq-6GtLzK-r2RHWG-eh1Wu8-nEJDGC-bVyVyU-quYAF3-6jM1hM-qSaoxb-qBU6Nh-pX1B6b-aVt4Q4-qjWdd3-aVtdMD-qZnoHN-4L9boh-pX1GaQ-qCC4py-7cXpab-qVhAYs-aVt2R2-biZa9H-aVx3AT-jDBzKK-aVx1J4-5Nzq4v-aVt6Uv-ritZFB-aVt3dr-3yfddn-aVtdeP-bxwBLY-pWS56w-qZw1Lx-aVtcVF-EFWySY-8MMf41

 

With the frequency that Class 110 driving ends were kept together and not used in mixed sets I cant help thinking there would have been a reason for it. They certainly seem to feature less in mixed sets than other DMU types. Although I'm not sure why it would be different to a Class 110 twin set being used with any other type of DMU set

 

I can't help wondering if some of those class 101 units in the photos are not, in fact, class 111 units, which also had the higher powered Rolls Royce engines, like the 110s. Visually, the 111s are almost identical to the 101s, although some, but not all, 111s had a four-character headcode box above the windscreens when built. The giveaway for identifying those in later life was when the headcodes were plated over, the destination screens were lower than the standard ones, 'embedded' in the centre windscreen with the tops a little above the level with the other screens.

 

From Wikipedia's entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_111#/media/File:British_Rail_Class_111_at_Skipton.jpg

[45125]

 

I can't help wondering if some of those class 101 units in the photos are not, in fact, class 111 units, which also had the higher powered Rolls Royce engines, like the 110s. Visually, the 111s are almost identical to the 101s, although some, but not all, 111s had a four-character headcode box above the windscreens when built. The giveaway for identifying those in later life was when the headcodes were plated over, the destination screens were lower than the standard ones, 'embedded' in the centre windscreen with the tops a little above the level with the other screens.

 

From Wikipedia's entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_111#/media/File:British_Rail_Class_111_at_Skipton.jp

The photos which appear to have a 101 coupled to the Calder Valley are 101s, the exhaust system is a giveaway and 1495 has Leyland 680s fitted. The battery box on the some of the Rolls Royce Met Camms is another giveaway.

Edited April 22, 2017 by 45125

[Market65]

I do agree about the class 111 units. The exhausts were routed in a different way to class 101's and class 102's. And the battery boxes were somewhat smaller, and were 'smoother' than on the other two classes of units. Then the engines were totally different. The cylinders were pointing inside instead of pointing outside - I'm not sure why, but that's how it was.

Only the last ten 111's were given the then new four character headcode boxes.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

[TravisM]

I'm modelling the S&C (Ais Gill) in the mid to late 70's and I know Carlisle Kingmoor's Class 108's travelled over the S&C on a regular basis but did Leeds Neville Hill's 3-car Class 101's ever travel over the line also?

 

Julian Sprott

[uax6]

I do agree about the class 111 units. The exhausts were routed in a different way to class 101's and class 102's. And the battery boxes were somewhat smaller, and were 'smoother' than on the other two classes of units. Then the engines were totally different. The cylinders were pointing inside instead of pointing outside - I'm not sure why, but that's how it was.

Only the last ten 111's were given the then new four character headcode boxes.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

 

Heres a good page to show what is ment above:

http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-111/description

 

Andy G

[ELTEL]

Evening All

 

What class of first Generation DMU would have be the most common in Cornwall in the 1960s

 

And which manufacture produces them in 4mm

 

Many thanks

 

Eltel

[chrisf]

When in the 1960s?  There were changes.  The first dmus to work in Cornwall were the 118s, introduced in summer 1960 and found with and without trailer cars.  Some 122s arrived in spring 1961, working on the branches and in pairs on the Saltash shuttle.  At the beginning of 1962 the 120s with headcode panels began to arrive.  Around April 1962 most of the 3 car 118s were transferred away and were replaced by 116s displaced from Newport.  Some more 116s arrived from South Wales following the WR take-over of the ex-Southern territory after 1963.  Eventually some of the 118s came back again but I need to look up exactly when.  Some more 120s were also drafted in.

 

So who makes models?  Bachmann are threatening a 117 which could be made to resemble a 118 with very little effort.  Second hand Lima 117s turn up from time to time.  The Dapol 122 is now out and Limby 121s have not entirely vanished.

 

Chris 

[ELTEL]

Probably 1965-1967

 

Thanks Chris for a good starter for 10

 

Terry

[SRman]

Adding slightly to Chris's answer, Kernow Model railway Centre were going to produce a 117 with a possibility of also making class 118 variants. However, they deferred to Bachmann's announcement of the 117, which sort of leaves the 118 in limbo for the time being. It is within the realms of possibility that Kernow could commission Bachmann to do the 118, but only time will tell on that.

[ELTEL]

Well as the project in mind is only at planning stage and I have a class 121 a Heljan railcar together with 14xx/Autocoach and the new flying banana I’ll wait and see what Kernow& Bachmann come up with.

 

Thanks again for you help

[chrisf]

The new flying banana will not help you for 1965/66!

 

Chris

[chrisf]

... but what will is the allocations as at October 1965 as published in the Railway Observer for December 1965.  Laira had 17 3 car sets of Class 116, 3 of class 118 and one with 116 power cars and a 118 trailer.  There were also one 116 power twin, 5 118 power twins, eight 122 single power cars, three 121 single power cars, three 122 driving trailers and four AC Cars railbuses.  Cross-Country sets of class 120 comprised two without the headcode panels beneath the windscreen and 9 with.  If you want set numbers and formations sling me a PM.

 

One notable feature of dmu operations at this time was the use of sets on lengthy trips in ex-SR territory such as Salisbury to Barnstaple.  This is a long way without a toilet and by no means all of the sets drafted in from elsewhere were thus equipped.  The solution adopted was to temporarily swap lavatory fitted and non lavatory fitted coaches between Cross-Country and suburban sets, for instance exchanging a driving motor second from a 116 with one from a 120 so that as far as possible all sets engaged on such workings had at least one toilet.  If history does record how long this measure lasted I have not yet found the reference.  Who mentioned getting bogged down in detail?

 

Chris 

[ELTEL]

Hi Chris

 

Quite a lot to digest, many thanks for so much detail

 

Terry

[EasternO]

Excuse the thread resurrection.

 

What underframe differences where there between the Derby Lightweight and the 108 DMUs? Everything below the body tumblehome really, including buffers and MU cabling, plus of course engine, battery boxes, fuel tanks, etc.

 

I brought this thread back up because it's got some really good info in it.