Mark's workbench - lockdown loco build (page 17)

[islandbridgejct]

Interesting thread, thanks. One to add to the followed list.

 

I think Mark Tatlow's Glenmutchkin is based on the same period, but a bit further north.

 

Single shoe brakes on the LNWR interest me: that D4 / D9 is a ringer for a standard GS&WR open (probably not surprising, the North Western owned much of the stock of the Irish company, and there were other similarities) so the Ratio 4-plank could be a good kit for me to convert.

 

Alan

[Mark Forrest]

Just wondering if there should be that much 'joggle' on the brake lever, I came across this one on the Rosedale branch. Not sure if it has the same axleboxes so could be smaller.

 

http://image-archive.org.uk/wp-content/MAX/2011_04/165.jpg

Useful photo from an unusual angle, thanks for sharing. Yes, the joggle probably is a bit too much, but even like this it only just clears the face of the axlebox. May be a result of me having to thin the solebars to get the axleguards between them.

It will normally be viewed side on so won't be anything like as apparent as it is in the photo I posted, but it is something I'd like to improve on in future builds.

[Mark Forrest]

Single shoe brakes on the LNWR interest me: that D4 / D9 is a ringer for a standard GS&WR open (probably not surprising, the North Western owned much of the stock of the Irish company, and there were other similarities) so the Ratio 4-plank could be a good kit for me to convert.

If I've understood correctly they were built with a single brake one side only, at a later point (or later builds?) got a single brake either side. Later still, conventional double push brakes - not sure if this was on the D9 only?

It's a useful kit, shame it is only available as a set with the coal wagon as I think the open will be of more use to me than the coal.

[LNWR lives on]

Mark

 

Have a look at www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/open/Diag004.php for information on the D4, and on the same wagons tab there's also information on Diagram 9

 

If you have a few coal wagons spare I might well be interested in taking them off your hands

 

Dave

[islandbridgejct]

If I've understood correctly they were built with a single brake one side only, at a later point (or later builds?) got a single brake either side. Later still, conventional double push brakes - not sure if this was on the D9 only?

It's a useful kit, shame it is only available as a set with the coal wagon as I think the open will be of more use to me than the coal.

 

Dave's linked photo shows that (and is useful to me too, thanks!) I don't know when the double brake either side became standard in GB. I think I read somewhere that there was legislation requiring it, some time between 1890 and 1920 which is probably too long a time period to be of any use to you. I'd suspect it was pre-1903 as the 1903 RCH standard wagons I've seen on the web seem to have 2 brake shoes either side. (Warning - don't trust anything I say too much: it's mostly surmise, conjecture and google.)

[Spitfire2865]

Dave's linked photo shows that (and is useful to me too, thanks!) I don't know when the double brake either side became standard in GB. I think I read somewhere that there was legislation requiring it, some time between 1890 and 1920 which is probably too long a time period to be of any use to you. I'd suspect it was pre-1903 as the 1903 RCH standard wagons I've seen on the web seem to have 2 brake shoes either side. (Warning - don't trust anything I say too much: it's mostly surmise, conjecture and google.)

Became standard around 1900-1920. Took effect.....late 1940ish. If something was built with a single shoe brake, it probably stayed like that till it was scrapped. There are photos of single shoe wagons in grimy late LMS livery.

Just put what looks good. Probably was a prototype for it.

[Craigw]

According to Private Owner wagons of the Forest Of Dean, the regulations for brakes on both sides of a wagon where brought in by the Board of Trade in 1911 thus anything built after this time was fitted with brakes both sides. However, conversion of old stock was not enforced until 1938. I expect this would have applied to both company and private wagons, though the GWR did start fitting a second set of brakes on wagons not so fitted from the mod 1920s.

 

Please see caption at bottom of page 55 of said publication for this info.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks for the brake info, this all seems to add weight to my own assumptions on the subject - sounds like I can probably get away with all of the brake types within my time period; I'll start with one of each.

 

Dave - I'll let you know if I end up with a glut of coal wagons from the set.

[LNWR lives on]

The LNWR tended to upgrade wagons if they felt it necessary as and when they came in for major overhaul/maintenance/repair unless there was a major upgrade programme for a type of wagon put in place. In some instances instead of upgrading, they simply reduced the nominated capacity the wagon could carry

 

As such there is such a wide variety of brake arrangements/liveries that you can get away with most things within the bounds of reason. Hence as Spitfire said you can find wagons that have been repainted to LMS livery still with single brake shoes.

 

The best thing as ever is to find some photos of the diagram required and look at the variances in them (Ebay can be good for this)

 

LNWR Wagons 1 will give you information on D4 and D9 as well as numerous other types

[Mark Forrest]

I think I've been spoilt by the accessibility of photos of more modern wagons from Paul Bartlett and David Larkin. I've always tended to model a specific wagon based on a photo. I need to build up my collection of suitable books and remember to look elsewhere, like in the photo Paul posted a link to where the wagon itself might not be the main subject, but a lot of useful info can be established.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think I've been spoilt by the accessibility of photos of more modern wagons from Paul Bartlett and David Larkin. I've always tended to model a specific wagon based on a photo. I need to build up my collection of suitable books and remember to look elsewhere, like in the photo Paul posted a link to where the wagon itself might not be the main subject, but a lot of useful info can be established.

Mark,

 

I am a firm believer in getting information about the model you are building from as many sources as possible. That's not too difficult with locos, coaches or wagons but isn't so easy with railway infrastructure. For example, while a drawing of a LNWR station name board (running in board) is shown in LNWR Portrayed, there are no dimensions and other drawings/close up photos are scarce.

 

It may well be that the item in question appears in  photos, but unless you can actually look at one to study it, it's hard to find what "additional" information a photo holds. The descriptions on various Society or sellers websites usually doesn't go beyond the main subject. For that reason I always buy almost any books published that relate to my specific interests, namely the LNWR in 1907. For example the two LNWR Miscellany (Ted Talbot) books contain a variety of unusual, but interesting and informative photos.

 

Jol

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks Jol. Yes, I'm building up my collection of books as I go along, recently acquired the two LNWR Miscellany books. You're right though, I need to look at photos slightly differently, looking for detail in the background of more general scenes rather than expecting to find a detailed close up of any specific wagon.

 

I suppose that in the way that move to P4 has made the technical aspect of my modelling more of a challenge (and therefore more interesting, exactly as I hoped it would) the change of era does the same for research, but as you say there are some excellent resources out there.

[Mark Forrest]

Staying with the subject of research, I've been looking into coal traffic for the Tipton project.

It seems likely that most of the local coal traffic would have originated in the Cannock Chase coal field. In particular, I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the Cannock and Rugeley Colliery's (CRC) wagons as seen in this 1934 photo at Harbourne (next to the brake van). Ideally, I'd like to identify all of the wagons in this train as it is very close in location and era to what I'll be modelling.

There seems to be two different types of wagons in the CRC photos.

One is 6 & half or 7 planks with a slightly raised end: https://chasewaterstuff.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/05024-no-5-beaudesert-0-6-0st-fox-walker-266-1875-c-r.jpg?w=500

the other (in front of the loco) seems to be only 5 planks high: https://chasewaterstuff.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/05031-no-6-adjutant-0-6-0st-manning-wardle-1913-1917-c-r.jpg?w=500

 

There is a train of CRC wagons in the background here too: http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Images-of-Staffordshire/image/2/Stafford_Delivery_Cart_Doxey_Road_Railway_Sidings

 

Are there any visual clues in these photos which would help to identify which wagon builder was responsible for these wagons, so I can determine which of the available PO wagon kits is the best match?

[N15class]

Nice photos. I have been watching your builds on here for a while, very impressive.

[Craigw]

Staying with the subject of research, I've been looking into coal traffic for the Tipton project.

It seems likely that most of the local coal traffic would have originated in the Cannock Chase coal field.  In particular, I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the Cannock and Rugeley Colliery's (CRC) wagons as seem in this 1934 photo at Harbourne (next to the brake van).  Ideally, I'd like to identify all of the wagons in this train as it is very close in location and era to what I'll be modelling.

 

There seems to be two different types of wagons in the CRC photos.  

One is 6 & half or 7 planks with a slightly raised end:  https://chasewaterstuff.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/05024-no-5-beaudesert-0-6-0st-fox-walker-266-1875-c-r.jpg?w=500

 

the other (in front of the loco) seems to be only 5 planks high: https://chasewaterstuff.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/05031-no-6-adjutant-0-6-0st-manning-wardle-1913-1917-c-r.jpg?w=500

 

There is a train of CRC wagons in the background here too:  http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Images-of-Staffordshire/image/2/Stafford_Delivery_Cart_Doxey_Road_Railway_Sidings

 

Are there any visual clues in these photos which would help to identify which wagon builder was responsible for these wagons, so I can determine which of the available PO wagon kits is the best match?

 

Mark,

 

I would suggest you purchase private owner wagons - an eleventh collection which contains about 6 pages on CRC wagons plus photos. They seem to have had a lot of 5 plank wagons and no models are listed, so no lettering from POWSides - might need to be a DIY job.

 

They seem to have ordered a lot of wagons from The Midland Waggon Company.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Mark Forrest]

Mark,

 

I would suggest you purchase private owner wagons - an eleventh collection which contains about 6 pages on CRC wagons plus photos. They seem to have had a lot of 5 plank wagons and no models are listed, so no lettering from POWSides - might need to be a DIY job.

 

They seem to have ordered a lot of wagons from The Midland Waggon Company.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

Thanks Craig.  I had seen a reference to the Vol 11 of the Turton books, but didn't want to buy it unseen in case it was just one photo that I might have found elsewhere; sounds like it's well worth me getting a copy.

 

I know of a couple of other people who might be interested in transfers for these so we're considering commissioning some transfers if we can find enough info.

[jwealleans]

If you haven't seen it, John Hayes' book on the 4mm Coal Wagon contains a lot of information, many useful photographs and handy tips on scratchbuilding if that's the way you end up going.

 

I only know of Cambrian who do the slightly raised end wagon in your first photo but I have a feeling it's 5 plank. That said, in these days of resin casting you only need to make a decent job of scratchbuilding one and you're away.

Edited January 10, 2016 by jwealleans

[Adam]

If you haven't seen it, Geoff Hayes' book on the 4mm Coal Wagon contains a lot of information, many useful photographs and handy tips on scratchbuilding if that's the way you end up going.

 

I only know of Cambrian who do the slightly raised end wagon in your first photo but I have a feeling it's 5 plank. That said, in these days of resin casting you only need to make a decent job of scratchbuilding one and you're away.

 

It's John Hayes - an excellent book - those raised ends, often curved, are very much a period feature of fixed end wagons which appears to have vanished from new builds about the time of the First World War. Cambrian do two: a Hurst Nelson type (C52) and a Wheeler and Gregory (a Somerset builder, I have some doubts that they'd have built many for Midlands customers) which is ref. C74. I've built one of those for my rather eclectic - overly so - NCB internal user fleet; nice kit.

Adam

[jwealleans]

John Hayes. I beg his pardon, it was early. Now corrected.

[Mark Forrest]

If you haven't seen it, John Hayes' book on the 4mm Coal Wagon contains a lot of information, many useful photographs and handy tips on scratchbuilding if that's the way you end up going.

 

No, I don't have that book, yet.  When my modelling was focused on a more recent period Geoff Kent's 4mm Wagon books had enough on the subject to get me by, but now I'm beginning to appreciate the many and varied differences in PO coal (and coke) wagons that book looks like one to add to the must have list.

 

 

It's John Hayes - an excellent book - those raised ends, often curved, are very much a period feature of fixed end wagons which appears to have vanished from new builds about the time of the First World War. Cambrian do two: a Hurst Nelson type (C52) and a Wheeler and Gregory (a Somerset builder, I have some doubts that they'd have built many for Midlands customers) which is ref. C74. I've built one of those for my rather eclectic - overly so - NCB internal user fleet; nice kit.

Adam

I bought an old Westykits Hurst Nelson kit recently; it must be about 35 years old - looks like it might be the same as the one currently in the Cambrian range.  I bought one of the Cambrian W&G ones too, before I realised they would probably be an unlikely visitor to Tipton!

 

There is a fantastic photo of coal wagons at Bescot here (shame there is a loco in the way!).  POWsides do East Cannock transfers; the Caswell wagon above the loco bunker looks to be a very old specimen, very interesting.

[Mark Forrest]

Not much progress to report this week, although I did spend some time today having a much needed tidy up of the workbench.

 

During the week I picked up these Bachmann wagons for use on Tipton.

These two (1533 & 1718) feature in a photo of Hale's works taken around 1930 that appears in the Middleton Press B'ham to Wolverhampton volume.

 

Thanks to John (Old Gringo) I now have a copy of The 4mm Coal Wagon, so have been reading up on that and checking my stock of Evergreen plastic strip.

 

Last weekend I had made a start on this Parkside LMS brake van. I had got as far as assembling the body and drilling the handrail holes. Today I made a start on fitting hand rails and also replaced the stove pipe on the roof.

 

Meanwhile, this little distraction has arrived on the workbench thanks to Chris (2manyspams). Apparently having reached my 40th birthday last Thursday, I now need to consider moving to the senior scale!! So far I've resisted temptation to make a start, but I'm sure it will be an interesting exercise.

[Spitfire2865]

Only 40? Youre young! My father is 50+ and builds 1-160th scale buildings.

[Mark Forrest]

I think I've been bitten by the scratch building bug:

 

MR diagram 353 8T van. At this stage I'm undecided whether I'm building it or using it as a master for resin casting.

[jwealleans]

I hope I'm not saying something silly here, but isn't that the one Slaters already do?

[petethemole]

Try getting one!