Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[iands]

I trust that you undertook a full risk assessment before climbing onto such a dangerous structure as a soap box. Does it meet all current standards in relation to protection from accidental falls?

Yep, handrail, steps and full HV kit.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Only one week left before the Heathrow Connect service ends and TfL Rail take over the route, as the first stage of transferring GWML relief line suburban services over to Crossrail.

 

The Paddington to Heathrow service will operate temporarily under the TfL banner from the 20th May, until it becomes re-branded as an Elizabeth Line service in December (this year).

Services will continue to terminate at the Paddington main line station until December next year (2019).

 

From December next year (2019), the service will be diverted into the Crossrail tunnels to serve Paddington's new Crossrail station and then continue under central London to the east, along with trains running from Reading and Maidenhead.

 

 

Heathrow Express continues as at present, until 2019, when GWR take over operation of the express service, on behalf of Heathrow Airport Ltd (HAL).

 

 

.

[Siberian Snooper]

Will this mean that the Heathrow services will part of the TFL pricing zones, or will they remain seperate?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Will this mean that the Heathrow services will part of the TFL pricing zones, or will they remain seperate?

 

 

I believe the 3 Heathrow stations are in Zone 6.

Oyster card and contactless has been installed.

 

 

.

[Paul.Uni]

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line

 

While TfL zones do not apply to these Heathrow fares, for the first time, customers will be able to use pay as you go with Oyster and contactless across the route all the way from Paddington to Heathrow. Fares will also be cheaper or in line with the current standard fares charged for Heathrow Connect.

Standard zonal fares will continue to apply for journeys between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington, with special single fares applying for journeys to and from Heathrow Airport.

Example fares include:

• A journey from Heathrow Airport to Ealing Broadway currently costs £8.00 using Heathrow Connect. From May, this will fall to £7.30 (peak) and £6.00 (off-peak)
• A journey from Canary Wharf to Heathrow Airport currently costs £13.20 using the Tube and Heathrow Connect. From May, this will fall to £12.10 (peak) and £10.10 (off-peak)
• A journey from Shepherds Bush to Heathrow Airport via Ealing Broadway currently costs £12.50 using the Central line and Heathrow Connect. From May, this will fall to £7.30 (peak) and £6.00 (off-peak)

As part of the integrated service, daily fare capping for Oyster and contactless and weekly fare capping for contactless will apply, with travelcards that cover Zone 6 able to be used on services to Heathrow.

For daily and weekly capping, Heathrow will be designated as 'Zone 6', meaning that 'pay as you go' customers travelling to and from the Airport from within Zones 1-6 will never pay more than the daily cap of £12.50.

So if I've understood it correctly TfL Rail Oyster pay as you go fares to/from Heathrow will be different to the standard Oyster fare, but will count towards the daily/weekly zone 1-6 cap and travelcards will also be valid.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Paul.Uni

[Zomboid]

I've noticed that the crossrail trains seem to normally run with both pans up. Surprising really in this era of high voltage buslines and the like.

[jim.snowdon]

I've noticed that the crossrail trains seem to normally run with both pans up. Surprising really in this era of high voltage buslines and the like.

I would suspect that because they are required to travel through deep level single bore tunnels, the same rules as have applied to tube stock since the beginning of the last century apply - through power lines (bus lines) are not legally permitted. At an educated guess, the two pantograph cars are not interconnected and simply supply several motor cars either side of them at low voltage. Another factor is that such an arrangement provides a level of redundancy in the event of an HV circuit failure.

 

Jim

[Edwin_m]

The 700s on Thameslink also run with both pans up.  The Pendolino has significantly more power than a 700 (can't immediately find data on a 345 but I assume it's similar) but only raises one of its two pans so it can't be a case of hitting the maximum current possible with a single pan.  So I guess it's a redundancy issue as Jim suggests - effectively two shorter EMUs running permanently in multiple and with no cabs at the inner ends. 

 

The two pans on a Pendolino are electrically connected but they definitely wouldn't be on a 345 or a 700, otherwise going through a neutral section with both pans raised would cause a major short circuit. 

[Zomboid]

Pendolinos are an interesting case. I think an 11 car has 3 transformers connected to the bus line, because my last trip on one was in coach U, which is the one with the pantograph well but not an actual pan. It does have the circuit breaker though, because I could hear it banging in and out as we passed neutral sections, so I suspect it has a transformer as well, which I would speculate is because the power needed by an 11 car needs 2 transformers, whilst one is enough for a 9 car, and both formations have one more than needed for redundancy. The pan car body shell being the one with the transformer capacity and need for a roof mounted circuit breaker would then explain why that vehicle is the shape it is.

 

Not having a bus line would explain 345s and 700s running with multiple pans up, though I can't immediately see why a 700 couldn't have a bus line. (Cheaper this way, probably, and at >100mph the dynamic effect on the OLE is less undesirable)

[dana]

Found this on YouTube;  Heathrow railway : Western extension .  

 

 

Basicly a survey on   a proposed route  from Readding station to Heath row  Airport thus anvoiding  Backtracking via Paddington Station .

 

 

the connection will be  made between langley & iver

 

youhave untill June 22 to make a say on this 

Edited May 17, 2018 by dana

[Ron Ron Ron]

Basicly a survey on   a proposed route  from Readding station to Heath row  Airport thus anvoiding  Backtracking via Paddington Station .

 

 

 

It's very odd that this video presents this project as if it's some new scheme that's being proposed.

I guess that's what you get when badly briefed PR people are given the job of making a video, or the job of communicating with the public, as required by this final stage of consultation.

 

Dana, forgive me if you already know this, but the Western Rail Link to Heathrow project has been under active development for several years.

It is far more than a proposal, with the detail design in an advanced stage and the project approaching the final stages of what must be nearly three years of consultation, before a formal planning application is submitted.

If approved, it will require the final go ahead from the SoS for transport and construction work can begin.

 

p.s. Preliminary construction should have started last month (April), but the project has been set back for two years, with further rounds of public consultation added.

 

p.p.s. Oh! ...and this has nothing to do with the Elizabeth Line (as yet), or this thread.

 

 

.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Paul.Uni]

I have managed to find TfL Rail Oyster PAYG fares to Heathrow on the single fare finder (please note to get the TfL rail fare you have to put to enter the full title of the Heathrow station eg 'Heathrow Terminal 4 Rail Station').

• West Drayton and Hayes & Harlington: £6.20 peak, £6.00 off peak
• Southall and Hanwell: £6.90 peak, £6.00 off peak
• West Ealing, Ealing Broadway, Acton Main Line and Greenford branch stations: £7.30 peak, £6.00 off peak
• Paddington: £10.20 peak, £10.10 off peak
• Zone 1 tube stations: £12.10 peak, £10.10 off peak

[DY444]

Not having a bus line would explain 345s and 700s running with multiple pans up, though I can't immediately see why a 700 couldn't have a bus line. (Cheaper this way, probably, and at >100mph the dynamic effect on the OLE is less undesirable)

 

The main reason is that from a systems point of view each 700 is two totally separate units in multiple as this was the easiest way to get 8/12 car trains without significant bespoke changes to the underlying Desiro City platform.

[Pacific231G]

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line

So if I've understood it correctly TfL Rail Oyster pay as you go fares to/from Heathrow will be different to the standard Oyster fare, but will count towards the daily/weekly zone 1-6 cap and travelcards will also be valid.

Goody. It looks like my London Freedom Pass will be valid to Heathrow? It already is on the Picadilly Line and Buses and does cover zone 6.

 

I'm actually getting very impatient for the Elizaberth Line to open through central London.

 

I went to an art show at the University of E. London on Thursday which is three DLR stops beyond Custom House (for Excel) on the Beckton branch. It took about ninety minutes using the Central, Jubilee  and two DLR trains. While changing trains at Custom House I did see a works train active at the new Custom House station but it looks like there's still a way to go in fitting it out. 

I go to several trade shows at Excel each year and it's a pain to get to from West London- far worse for anyone coming from out of town. I reckon the Elzabeth Line will cut the journey to about thirty minutes but building it seems to be taking forever.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Titan]

 

The two pans on a Pendolino are electrically connected but they definitely wouldn't be on a 345 or a 700, otherwise going through a neutral section with both pans raised would cause a major short circuit. 

 

it is quite feasible to have both pans raised running through a neutral section, without causing a short via the bus. As the breaker will be between the pan and the bus, you can make sure that one or both pans are disconnected from it until the neutral section has been passed through by the entire train.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Of course, today is the first weekday operation of TFL Rail from London Paddington (High Level) to Heathrow.

 

Unfortunately Class 345s are only running to Hayes Bay and back (I think), with Class 360's still on the Heathrow Branch.

Simon

[Ron Ron Ron]

..... today is the first weekday operation of TFL Rail from London Paddington (High Level) to Heathrow.

 

Unfortunately Class 345s are only running to Hayes Bay and back (I think), with Class 360's still on the Heathrow Branch.

 

 

 

YouTube footage shows the Class 360's are branded with TfL logo's.

Presumably they will continue operating on the Heathrow branch until the signalling work is sorted out and completed?

As far as I know, this has been expected for a while.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-takes-over-heathrow-trains-in-major-crossrail-project-milestone-a3843951.html

 

http://www.cityam.com/286012/key-milestone-crossrail-timeline-reached-tfl-takes-over

 

 

 

 

.

[lyneux]

Still only 2 TPH. No new trains.

 

As a user of the former Heathrow Connect, I can't say I've really noticed any change.

 

Guy

[Ron Ron Ron]

Still only 2 TPH. No new trains.

 

As a user of the former Heathrow Connect, I can't say I've really noticed any change.

 

 

 

It's a phased introduction.

This is the start of phase 2.

The new Class 345 trains were originally going to be running into Heathrow from yesterday, but will now replace the Class 360's once the new signalling is operational on the Heathrow branch.

 

Phase 3 & 4 see's trains starting to run under the centre of London in the new Crossrail tunnels, but only between Paddington low level and the eastern branches.

The TfL Rail services will be branded Elizabeth Line from December this year.

 

The increase in services on the western section isn't scheduled to take place until phase 5 in December 2019 (18 months time, so not that far away).

That's when the full service is due to commence, with trains running via the Crossrail tunnels to/from the GWML relief lines.

Paddington main line station has't got the capacity to take the extra trains before then.

 

 

..

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[lyneux]

The increase in services on the western section isn't scheduled to take place until phase 5 in December 2019 (18 months time, so not that far away).

That's when the full service is due to commence, with trains running via the Crossrail tunnels to/from the GWML relief lines.

Paddington main line station has't got the capacity to take the extra trains before then.

..

 

I fear you are right, but not what has been communicated to west London locals sadly:

 

E.g. "Mayor of London pledges an increased service to stations across Ealing and Hillingdon from next year" (this was Dec 2017)

https://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/new-crossrail-elizabeth-line-mayor-13979076

 

Or: "it now won’t be until near the end of this year when four new Elizabeth Line trains an hour will run the route" (from Apr 2018)

http://www.cityam.com/284143/rollout-new-elizabeth-line-trains-stalls-heathrow-branch

 

I've heard speculation that the 360s will continue until GWR take over HEX next year and start running 387s. With the 332s gone, ATP can be switched off and the 345s can finally get to Heathrow.

 

My point is: the impact of TFL taking over the Heathrow Connect has been very little from a passenger's point of view (despite all the noise from TFL over the past month).

 

Guy

Edited May 21, 2018 by lyneux

[The Stationmaster]

I fear you are right, but not what has been communicated to west London locals sadly:

 

E.g. "Mayor of London pledges an increased service to stations across Ealing and Hillingdon from next year" (this was Dec 2017)

https://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/new-crossrail-elizabeth-line-mayor-13979076

 

Or: "it now won’t be until near the end of this year when four new Elizabeth Line trains an hour will run the route" (from Apr 2018)

http://www.cityam.com/284143/rollout-new-elizabeth-line-trains-stalls-heathrow-branch

 

I've heard speculation that the 360s will continue until GWR take over HEX next year and start running 387s. With the 332s gone, ATP can be switched off and the 345s can finally get to Heathrow.

 

My point is: the impact of TFL taking over the Heathrow Connect has been very little from a passenger's point of view (despite all the noise from TFL over the past month).

 

Guy

 

Does that mean that Crossrail trains are now running between Paddington and Hayes without ATP?  (Although presumably 387s are too?)

[Ron Ron Ron]

My point is: the impact of TFL taking over the Heathrow Connect has been very little from a passenger's point of view (despite all the noise from TFL over the past month).

 

 

I thought that was the plan all along.

Very little change or disruption to the existing services, then the Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) service could be ramped up in stages towards full operation.

 

It seems like a pragmatic approach.

How many people noticed TfL taking over the running of most of the intermediate stations along the GWML, late last year?

 

 

.

[St. Simon]

I've heard speculation that the 360s will continue until GWR take over HEX next year and start running 387s. With the 332s gone, ATP can be switched off and the 345s can finally get to Heathrow

Does that mean that Crossrail trains are now running between Paddington and Hayes without ATP? (Although presumably 387s are too?)

Hi,

 

ATP is still in use by Class 332's, Class 360's, Class 80x's and HSTs. The Class 345's are running without ATP, they aren't fitted with it, instead additional protection is provided by additional TPWS loops (designed in part by yours truly), this will be until ETCS on the train is fully operational (I believe the ETCS in the tunnels is fully operational).

 

Class 345s can run on an ATP fitted Railway, they are now between Hayes and Paddington, as long as that railway is fitted with AWS and TPWS, as Heathrow is not fitted with AWS or TPWS (as the Heathrow Branch operational safety case is based around using an ATP system), any train that is not fitted with Great Western ATP are not permitted on the branch unless they use an alternative ATP system (aka ECTS), which is currently the issue with the Class 345's

 

ATP cannot be switched off fully when the 332's go, only the section between Stockley and Heathrow (assuming all trains running down there are fully fitted with operational ETCS Level 2 equipment), this is because the Class 80x's are operated under ATP, and until the ETCS level 2 Overlay is extended to cover those areas covered by ATP, then the ATP can't be switched off.

 

Simon

Edited May 21, 2018 by St. Simon

[lyneux]

Just found this quote from Howard Smith (TFL Operations Director) in Londonist:

 

https://londonist.com/london/transport/rollout-of-crossrail-trains-delayed-again

 

Our supplier Bombardier continues to test the Elizabeth line trains and the new signalling system in the Heathrow tunnel.

 

While this takes place we will operate the same service pattern (two trains per hour) to Heathrow as exists now, using the existing Heathrow Connect trains.

 

We will also run two trains per hour between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington, which is the same frequency as now, using the new Elizabeth line trains. Once Bombardier has completed testing we will increase the frequency to Heathrow to four trains per hour later this year.

 

So, this seems to suggest 4TPH to Heathrow and 345s in operation in the Heathrow tunnels before the end of 2018 (rather than 2019).

 

(Not sure that I believe this mind you!).

 

Guy

[Ron Ron Ron]