Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[Ron Ron Ron]

[lyneux]

Just found this memo from TFL (January 2018) explaining the contingency plan:

 

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20180130-item10-elizabeth-line.pdf

 

Para 4.7 was interesting. Suggests that they hope to have ETCS working (and thus presumably 345s to Heathrow?) by the autumn.

 

Guy

[St. Simon]

Just found this memo from TFL (January 2018) explaining the contingency plan:

 

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20180130-item10-elizabeth-line.pdf

 

Para 4.7 was interesting. Suggests that they hope to have ETCS working (and thus presumably 345s to Heathrow?) by the autumn.

 

Guy

Interesting read, Autumn seems sensible, ETCS in the tunnels is live (and has been since last Christmas I think), so the trains have just got to have the niggles ironed out.

 

Simon

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

This makes me quite excited, it makes me happy to work for the railways:

 

 

 

Simon

[Ron Ron Ron]

Europe’s biggest infrastructure project is now in its final stages -

all the platform screen doors are installed with testing underway,

installation of the overhead power equipment in the tunnels is complete

and the new stations are being fitted out with remaining architectural finishes and mechanical and electrical equipment.

 

The new Elizabeth line trains are currently being tested between Abbey Wood and Canary Wharf using the line’s new automatic train control system which operates in the central section of the route.

Earlier this week, the overhead power equipment was successfully switched on in the remaining section between Westbourne Park and Stepney which means that the Elizabeth line tunnels are now fully energised.

 

Later this year, the first completed infrastructure will be handed over to Transport for London, who will lead the trial operations and commissioning phase ahead of the opening of the Elizabeth line in December.

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Siberian Snooper]

Had a ride into padd from Ealing Broadway on a 345 sitting sideways at speed is a little unnerving, I wouldn't fancy doing that over any distance.

[The Stationmaster]

Had a ride into padd from Ealing Broadway on a 345 sitting sideways at speed is a little unnerving, I wouldn't fancy doing that over any distance.

 

Yes, I do wonder what it will be like over 30+ miles with speeds up to 90mph.  TfL failed to answer my question as to whether or not it had been risk assessed in respect of people with certain medical conditions so I presume they haven't done that.  All they said was that there are some other seating bays - which are a lot of use if you happen to get onto a full train at Paddington with a 30 mile journey ahead of you.  Fortunately my ticketing arrangements will make it feasible for me to attempt to avoid the things for a journey longer than 5 miles but I do not long forward to travelling to or from Ealing Broadway on the things when visiting a friend on West London.

 

After a year or so of Class 387s I suspect these trans will attract huge quantities of passenger complaints from people forced to make longer journeys on them.

[Siberian Snooper]

I took advantage of the Travelcard to go to Heathrow on Sunday, there were a couple of chaps doing a survey for TFL, so I voiced my concerns, but I feel that it fell on deaf ears.

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting observing this yesterday - fortunately without sampling it - between Hayes and Ealing Broadway.  First it was amusing to watch passengers  baling out of a Crossrail set at Hayes to join a very overcrowded Class 387 for their journey eastwards.  But far more interesting to watch/suffer in the evening was the interaction between a Crossrail set and the signalling system starting with the signal immediately beyond Ealing Broadway on the Down Relief which took an awful long time to clear to green after a 345 had departed and was calling at West Ealing - gave the impression that the 345s are too long to sit cheerfully with close headways on the existing (new) signalling.  The same thing happened when it stopped at Southall ahead of our 387 and resulted in us coming to a dead stand at the signal west of Hanwell Bridge (nothing else visibly present or showing on RTT).

 

Interestingly on our up journey we were overtime at Southall while a freight was crossed ahead of us from Southall Yard into Hanwell Bridge Loop - that could play havoc with parts of Crossrail if the same sort of thing happens in front of a Crossrail train in the future (and in my view it was correct regulation as it was in accordance with timetable order, the freight just took a minute or two longer than booked to get underway).  Welcome to the grown-up railway TfL - I hope you'll like it. 

[4630]

...Welcome to the grown-up railway TfL - I hope you'll like it. 

 

 

You can imagine in a few months time TfL stamping its foot; throwing its toys out of the pram; spitting its dummy as far as it can; and 'crying to mummy*' when the railway and the other users of the line won't operate the way that TfL would like.

 

* other parental substitutes are available. 

[iands]

You can imagine in a few months time TfL stamping its foot; throwing its toys out of the pram; spitting its dummy as far as it can; and 'crying to mummy*' when the railway and the other users of the line won't operate the way that TfL would like.

 

* other parental substitutes are available.

 

Why so? TfL (London Overground) have been "sharing" the rail network with other operators for several years without too much fuss, so why should this be any different?

 

Regards, Ian.

[phil-b259]

Why so? TfL (London Overground) have been "sharing" the rail network with other operators for several years without too much fuss, so why should this be any different?

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Because TfL are approaching Crossrail very differently from they way they have done with the other national rail routes they have taken over thus far.

 

If you go back and do a bit of research its clear that Bully boy / Aggressive tactics have been used to try and claim ALL relief (slow) line paths they can get on the GWML as they seek to extend the 12TPH they are forced to turn round at Paddington (due to an imbalance of branches) further west. This has resulted in superior quality GWR trains being elbowed out and attempts to significantly curtail freight activity as much as possible.

 

Please remember that with most TfL operations running at a loss (including the Overground - only the Tube makes a profit), TfL desperately needs to milk all the money it can from Crossrail to balance the books. This is especially true now that Central Government has abolished the revenue support grant from the Treasury for ALL TRANSPORT MODES - meaning that passengers on Crossrail will be paying for road repairs to the likes of the A40, A4, A3, etc plus helping to support the bus network, the Overground network, etc

[iands]

Because TfL are approaching Crossrail very differently from they way they have done with the other national rail routes they have taken over thus far.

 

If you go back and do a bit of research its clear that Bully boy / Aggressive tactics have been used to try and claim ALL relief (slow) line paths they can get on the GWML as they seek to extend the 12TPH they are forced to turn round at Paddington (due to an imbalance of branches) further west. This has resulted in superior quality GWR trains being elbowed out and attempts to significantly curtail freight activity as much as possible.

 

Please remember that with most TfL operations running at a loss (including the Overground - only the Tube makes a profit), TfL desperately needs to milk all the money it can from Crossrail to balance the books. This is especially true now that Central Government has abolished the revenue support grant from the Treasury for ALL TRANSPORT MODES - meaning that passengers on Crossrail will be paying for road repairs to the likes of the A40, A4, A3, etc plus helping to support the bus network, the Overground network, etc

Ooops, hit the wrong button.

 

Thanks for the insight Phil. I was aware that central government had withdrawn funding and that the tube was the only bit turning a profit, but I wasn't aware of the aggresive/bullyboy tactics being employed in the name of Crossrail. The next few months will be very interesting indeed.

 

Regards, Ian.

Edited June 1, 2018 by iands

[phil-b259]

Thanks for the insight Phil. I was aware that central government had withdrawn funding and that the tube was the only bit turning a profit......

 

Just to illustrate how tight the finances are at TfL, they have already maxed out the amount of borrowing they can undertake so the Crossrail fleet of trains (which TfL own outright) will be sold to a bank then leased back so as to provide the money to buy new trains for the Piccadilly line. Quite what they are going to do about the need for new Bakerloo line trains at some stage (other than cross their fingers and hope for a more benevolent Westminster Government after the next General election) is unknown......

 

*You get a better leasing deal on 'go anywhere' mainline trains than for bespoke tube stock whose only other operator is a 10mile branch line on the Isle of Wight!

.

Edited June 1, 2018 by phil-b259

[jim.snowdon]

Why so? TfL (London Overground) have been "sharing" the rail network with other operators for several years without too much fuss, so why should this be any different?

Regards, Ian.

It was known several years ago that TfL weren't happy with having to put up with the freight trains that used the North London Line, particularly with the bottleneck around Camden. Then there were the issues over what would happen if they took over the Southeastern services, where the perception was that by grabbing the paths the longer distance commuter services would suffer.

Trying to throttle the freight companies access on and off the GW main line to the North London and Midland Main Line isn't likely to go down well, remembering that it was the freight side that forced the building of the Acton dive-under.

In the end, the arbiter will be the ORR, who have put upstart operators in their place before.

 

Jim

[Christopher125]

...gave the impression that the 345s are too long to sit cheerfully with close headways on the existing (new) signalling.

 

Too long? The 7-car 345s currently being used are almost identical in length to a 8-car 387.

[Siberian Snooper]

It seems to me the TfL are biting off more than they can chew, by trying to take over services outside of their current sphere of operation. It will only take some unforeseen incident west of airport junction to throw the whole thing into chaos, when they can't get trains back to form East bound services. Having been watching the Paddington 24/7 series, it doesn't take much to cause disruption to the timetable.

[jjb1970]

I think it'll be interesting to see how TfL manage their more challenging financial circumstances as rightly or wrongly in the past they've basked in a warm glow of being seen to know what they're doing and why-oh-why can't the rest of the rail industry be just like TfL.

[jim.snowdon]

I think it'll be interesting to see how TfL manage their more challenging financial circumstances as rightly or wrongly in the past they've basked in a warm glow of being seen to know what they're doing and why-oh-why can't the rest of the rail industry be just like TfL.

Up until now, TfL have had a relatively easy ride in terms of their operations over NR infrastructure. The ELL services to Crystal Palace and West Croydon have the slow lines out from New Cross largely to themselves, with the only real interfaces being around West Croydon. Similarly, the Liverpool - Shenfield services, whilst the Cheshunt and Chingford services are on lines that, whilst shared with other traffic, are relatively straightforward. Euston - Watford is an almost entirely separated railway that they have to themselves. The North London Line has been the subject of reputed whinging by TfL at the freighht services, but isn't too much in the public eye.

Crossrail West is a different cookie entirely, with TfL's trains having to share with GWR's services to Slough and beyond, as well as substantial freights that come on and off the relief lines at both Acton, Southall and, to a lesser extent, Hayes and West Drayton. They may want to think it's their railway, but it isn't.

 

Strangely enough, they ought to know about the perils of running long distance services through London, provided they have long memories (which is a bit of an assumption). Decades ago, LT ran a network of long distance coaches (the Green Line routes), a large number of which went from one side of London to the other, and whose punctuality was very much at the mercy of the central London traffic. Eventually reality dawned, and they split them so that they started and finished in central London. Crossrail appears to be two overlapping services - Shenfield to Paddington and Reading/Maidenhead/Heathrow to Abbey Wood. I suspect that Shenfield - Reading would be an operating nightmare when it is at the mercy of someone else's railway at both ends.

 

Jim

Edited June 2, 2018 by jim.snowdon

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Just been doing a bit of analysis of Realtime Trains on the GWML out of Padd.

 

Currently, the broad off-peak picture is 12 trains per hour on each of the main and relief lines.

The mains are a mix of Heathrow Express and GWR long distance services; the reliefs the electric GW services to Reading and Didcot, TfL (ex-Heathrow Connect) and freights.

 

Headways are around 3 mins, so the potential is 20 trains per hour max with trains running at similar speeds. Realistically, we're looking at perhaps 15 trains per hour, given the current mix.

[The Stationmaster]

Why so? TfL (London Overground) have been "sharing" the rail network with other operators for several years without too much fuss, so why should this be any different?

 

Regards, Ian.

 

But they haven't yet got out to play on a big railway like this one which has considerable freight traffic including freights which run during the peaks and some traffics which are very tightly resourced meaning they would probably be lost completely to rail if they can't run in existing patterns.  The Somerset quarries send stone eastwards late at night/very early morning, the wagons are emptied during the morning and work back to the quarries in the afternoon to reload for the next day's working.  Break that pattern and it costs resources.

 

Don't forget too that Main Lines closed for whatever reason means everything runs on the Reliefs which inevitably means trimmed services to get them all through and stopping at, say acton, during that sort of scenario would wreck the limited capacity - all stations stoppers consume capacity far more seriously than anything else so they'll be the first to go on a sensibly run reduced capacity railway, even some of the freights are faster than stopping passenger trains.  So TfL are going to have to get used to a very different kind of railway AND they will inevitably have to accept that 100% punctual running will be more of an aspiration dream than a reality as there are far too many potential perturbations to guarantee it.

[jjb1970]

And Flying Scotsman causing delays on Thursday, or at least that's what the driver of the HEx service I was using announced to explain the slow running and delay.

[Ron Ron Ron]

And Flying Scotsman causing delays on Thursday,......

The FS is a bit of a nuisance all round then?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44324691

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

Too long? The 7-car 345s currently being used are almost identical in length to a 8-car 387.

 

Yes but they aren't operating all stations services at short headways east of Hayes/West Drayton at present.  And when headways are reduced by late running, as I saw the other evening, it becomes a rather different picture.   Crossrail west of Paddington will, I think, only work really satisfactorily with six tracking out as far as West Drayton and perhaps even further out in view of the sort of frequencies/stopping patterns they have spoken of out to Maidenhead.   there is no other way they could get teh dedicated pair of tracks TfL have sometimes gone on about as the other traffic using the route will not work over a double line - it needs quadruple track.

[jim.snowdon]

I see that the up relief platforms at Hayes and Southall have now been extended to what must be the full 9-car length for the 345s but the SDO on the GWR 387s has yet to be updated. Doors on the eighth car are still locked out at these stops, and with the stop marker moved all the way up to the platform ramp, leaving passengers with quite walk to board the nearest available doors to the platform access.

 

The new OOC depot is also awash with 345s, far more than is needed to run any west of Paddington services for some time to come.

 

Jim