Slaters Wheels Price Increase

[chaz]

I have turned wheels for 16mm stock, from both castings & stock bar. If the cast iron is good, and the tool sharp, it's a pleasure to turn, but making spokes is another kettle of fish entirely. It's possible to drill, cut & file from the solid, (I don't have the patience) or to make a pattern, and have castings made, but fine detail in cast iron is challenging and apt to chill, making machining (and filling) rather harder. Getting good, non-chilled, fine detailed 0 gauge wheel castings may be a challenge.

 

An alternative would be a steel rim, a cast whitemetal/pewter spoked wheel, and either rim insulated (epoxy & fag paper) or a tufnol hub insulating bush. I'd favour the former, with loctite retainer to fix the wheels to the axles. Making the master and casting whitemetal wheels would be easier than cast iron, take detail nicely, and I guess would take a crankpin bush without too much difficulty. I'd imagine that making the master by 3D printing wouldn't be too challenging.

 

Say 10 hours or so for the 3D modelling, and about 20 minutes each to turn rims 6 drivers, 2 pony wheels and 6 tender wheels, say 5 hours or so. Not sure what Shapeways would charge for the masters, £20 each perhaps, and a couple of weeks? Then casting whitemetal, needs a centrifugal casting mound, I think they're around £100 a shot, but you could make a driver, pony and tender or a pair of each in the mould - the unused ones can always be remelted. Got to find a willing caster, but that shouldn't be a challenge too far. A couple of quid for the 3/16th silver steel for the axles. Then there's the fun of assembling it all. And assuming you have a lathe, drill press, etc.

 

Call it a couple of hundred quid, plus the time, and the risk. All sounds very feasible, but I reckon Mr White has little cause to quake in his boots just yet!

 

Best

Simon

 

Well said Simon - and I doubt that many 7mm modellers have the skills required to make wheels (I certainly don't). No, even with a modest increase in price Slater's wheels are still a bargain and, without any competition, essential. Virtually all of Dock Green's rolling stock and all the kit built locos roll on Slater's wheels (a few wagons run on Peco) - so no Slater's - no Dock Green. 

[hartleymartin]

I look at the prices of components and decide whether or not I could make something to a similar standard at a similar price or not. I am quite happy to spend my money on wheels, motors, gearboxes and on milled motion gear than to make my own. Honestly, we've little to complain about.

[chaz]

I do wonder whether there might be some modellers who have migrated into 7mm from smaller scales, attracted by some of the new generation of excellent RTR, who have yet to adjust their wallets? They can be reassured though - the amount of stuff you can fit into any given space is drastically less than you could in OO or N - four track main lines and ten-coach trains are going to need a gym' sized room. In fact didn't Cyril Freezer propound the view that the overall cost of a layout is related directly to its size (area) and is largely independent of the scale?

 

Chaz

[Simond]

Morning Chaz,

 

I don't know if CJF said it, but my mate Andrew did. And I reckon it's a reasonably accurate estimate.

 

Did you keep a tally of the costs of Dock Green? (And if you did, would you be willing to share it?).

 

I wonder if the smaller scale modellers have the same propensity to collect far more stock than can reasonably be accommodated - 0 gauge locos are (typically) far more expensive than their mass produced cousins (despite CK's and Dapol's contributions), and I know a few chaps who have amassed considerable collections over the years.

 

Best

Simon

[BG John]

I wouldn't have even considered 7mm if it wasn't for Dapol's Terrier, and even at Hattons price of £154, it seemed expensive (although I still changed my order from one to two at the last minute!). But that's more from a couple of decades of not doing any modelling, than any comparison with 4mm. I find 4mm incredibly expensive too. I was last doing serious modelling in the late 1980s, when my income was much higher in real terms.

 

Wearing my accountants hat, I can understand and accept Slaters pricing, but looking at my personal situation, I need to think carefully about buying any 7mm components. But it's not just in 7mm I find prices unaffordable. The Broad Gauge Society do some very nice 4mm kits that I'd like, but I won't be buying any of them, as they're too expensive for me. It's an incentive to start scratchbuilding, even if the results aren't as good as I could achieve with the kits. But scratchbuilding makes things seem expensive, when I could build most of a model for a few pounds, but then have to pay many many times that for the components I can't make. It doesn't help that I've got a pretty good stock of 4mm wheels and other components, that I bought in the late 1970s and 80s, so won't need to buy much, but if I did, I'd be getting worried about the cost of that too!

 

So in my case, I think it's the cost of doing any modelling that concerns me, and maybe a warped perception of how expensive life in general has become in recent years, while I've been trying to make the world a better place and surviving on a very low income. I know there are lots of new and innovative ideas that have appeared since I was last spending money on modelling, but many of them seem to push costs up, rather than being imaginative solutions to make it more affordable.

[81A Oldoak]

I do wonder whether there might be some modellers who have migrated into 7mm from smaller scales, attracted by some of the new generation of excellent RTR, who have yet to adjust their wallets? They can be reassured though - the amount of stuff you can fit into any given space is drastically less than you could in OO or N - four track main lines and ten-coach trains are going to need a gym' sized room. In fact didn't Cyril Freezer propound the view that the overall cost of a layout is related directly to its size (area) and is largely independent of the scale?

 

Chaz

My 0 Gauge Cwm Bach layout and still extant, but to be dismantled  00 Abersoch layout each occupy the identical space of 15' x 2'. Abersoch has 14 points, mostly motorised, a turntable, seven signals and 14 principal structures. Cwm Bach has seven points, three signals (on two posts) and four principal structures. Abersoch station's main platform can hold a 4-6-0 tender locomotive and four BR Mk 1 coaches. It also has a bay platform that can take three coaches and a parcels platform that will hold a couple of coaches. Cwm Bach can accommodate a medium-sized tank loco and two coaches, the most which can be run round. Goods trains on Cwm Bach are usually a tank locomotive, five 4-wheel wagons or vans and a brake van. Abersoch usually ran goods trains hauled by an 0-6-0 or 2-6-0  tender engine, 10 to 15 wagons and vans and a brake van. I have a mountain of 4mm scale stock with a large number of locomotives that were impulse purchases that have never been out of their boxes. My 7mm scale purchases are much more discriminating and usually to fulfil a specific need. I do own a Dapol Terrier, which has no place on a South Wales Valleys branch line, but that was because it is a nice model (made in the same factory as Ixion and Minerva locos) and the price ridiculously low.

[chaz]

Morning Chaz,

 

 

Did you keep a tally of the costs of Dock Green? (And if you did, would you be willing to share it?).

 

I wonder if the smaller scale modellers have the same propensity to collect far more stock than can reasonably be accommodated - 0 gauge locos are (typically) far more expensive than their mass produced cousins (despite CK's and Dapol's contributions), and I know a few chaps who have amassed considerable collections over the years.

 

Best

Simon

 

When we (it was originally a joint effort) started Dock Green we did keep a tally of what we spent, but I'm sorry to say I let this lapse and now have no accurate idea of what it cost.

The last entry on the spreadsheet brought the total to £1268. This was dated Oct 2012, two weeks before we took it to our first show as a work in progress and there has been considerably more spent since. That figure did not include any of the stock or moveable scenics (road vehicles etc) or the DCC which was initally shared with a home layout.

 

Our value estimate for insurance purposes, including the rolling stock and Lenz DCC system is £22K.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

My 0 Gauge Cwm Bach layout and still extant, but to be dismantled  00 Abersoch layout each occupy the identical space of 15' x 2'. Abersoch has 14 points, mostly motorised, a turntable, seven signals and 14 principal structures. Cwm Bach has seven points, three signals (on two posts) and four principal structures. Abersoch station's main platform can hold a 4-6-0 tender locomotive and four BR Mk 1 coaches. It also has a bay platform that can take three coaches and a parcels platform that will hold a couple of coaches. Cwm Bach can accommodate a medium-sized tank loco and two coaches, the most which can be run round. Goods trains on Cwm Bach are usually a tank locomotive, five 4-wheel wagons or vans and a brake van. Abersoch usually ran goods trains hauled by an 0-6-0 or 2-6-0  tender engine, 10 to 15 wagons and vans and a brake van. I have a mountain of 4mm scale stock with a large number of locomotives that were impulse purchases that have never been out of their boxes. My 7mm scale purchases are much more discriminating and usually to fulfil a specific need. I do own a Dapol Terrier, which has no place on a South Wales Valleys branch line, but that was because it is a nice model (made in the same factory as Ixion and Minerva locos) and the price ridiculously low.

 

Your comparison is a telling one and fully supports the arguement.

 

I must admit to admiring Dapol's Terrier - gorgeous little gem though the Brighton liveried one is - I think I will hold out for the 08 - that will fit nicely on Dock Green. I fancy a green one with wasp stripes if they are as nicely painted as the A1X...

[chaz]

I wouldn't have even considered 7mm if it wasn't for Dapol's Terrier, and even at Hattons price of £154, it seemed expensive (although I still changed my order from one to two at the last minute!). But that's more from a couple of decades of not doing any modelling, than any comparison with 4mm. I find 4mm incredibly expensive too. I was last doing serious modelling in the late 1980s, when my income was much higher in real terms.

 

Wearing my accountants hat, I can understand and accept Slaters pricing, but looking at my personal situation, I need to think carefully about buying any 7mm components. But it's not just in 7mm I find prices unaffordable. The Broad Gauge Society do some very nice 4mm kits that I'd like, but I won't be buying any of them, as they're too expensive for me. It's an incentive to start scratchbuilding, even if the results aren't as good as I could achieve with the kits. But scratchbuilding makes things seem expensive, when I could build most of a model for a few pounds, but then have to pay many many times that for the components I can't make. It doesn't help that I've got a pretty good stock of 4mm wheels and other components, that I bought in the late 1970s and 80s, so won't need to buy much, but if I did, I'd be getting worried about the cost of that too!

 

So in my case, I think it's the cost of doing any modelling that concerns me, and maybe a warped perception of how expensive life in general has become in recent years, while I've been trying to make the world a better place and surviving on a very low income. I know there are lots of new and innovative ideas that have appeared since I was last spending money on modelling, but many of them seem to push costs up, rather than being imaginative solutions to make it more affordable.

 

I have to sympathise with anyone in your position who finds the costs of modelling just too high for a modest income. I think if I were in your position I would revert to 4mm to make use of your "pretty good stock of 4mm wheels and other components".

 

Chaz

[Simond]

I have to admit to having too catholic tastes, I had, at one point, fine scale 0, N, and 16mmNG. I suspect there's some remnants of teenage 00 in my mum's loft too.. The 16mm has now all gone, and the remaining N gauge stuff might buy two, but more likely one, of Mr Waterman's nice resin coaches.

 

I think there is a great deal to be said for choosing your model, theme, era, location, scale, gauge & control system, and sticking to it! Porth Dinllaen has been a theme now for something over 15 years, I bought & built my first 0 gauge kit (Springside 45xx) just over 18 years back, and I'd be surprised if I have major parts of it built in the next 10, though I do intend to make a start on the loco shed baseboards in the next few weeks.

 

I do have the opportunity to run stock on a pal's outdoor line, weather permitting, which does alleviate the frustration...

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

 

Our value estimate for insurance purposes, including the rolling stock and Lenz DCC system is £22K.

 

Chaz

Thanks Chaz, I think this is a very reasonable figure for what you have shown us - probably somewhat higher than a "beginner" might expect to have to spend, but over a prolonged period, and allowing for the size (16 x 2 feet IIRC?), full DCC, and a wide selection of locos.

 

It would be interesting to hear from other modellers with similar size but different scale exhibition layouts, to make the comparison. Probably rather similar.

 

Best

Simon

[chaz]

Thanks Chaz, I think this is a very reasonable figure for what you have shown us - probably somewhat higher than a "beginner" might expect to have to spend, but over a prolonged period, and allowing for the size (16 x 2 feet IIRC?), full DCC, and a wide selection of locos.

 

It would be interesting to hear from other modellers with similar size but different scale exhibition layouts, to make the comparison. Probably rather similar.

 

Best

Simon

 

Most modellers who don't keep changing scales and themes will do what I have done - they will slowly amass a collection of rolling stock. When I started in 7mm this necessarily meant kit or scratchbuilds. Although I have parted with a few unwanted RTR items I have never disposed of a kit built piece. So my rolling stock collection now exceeds Dock Green's capacity. You could operate the layout with just three locos - I usually take nine - this allows me to ring the changes and to "sub" any that give problems.

 

I am lucky that I was able financially to build Dock Green and have a large enough pool of operators who like playing with my toys to get to exhibit it regularly.

 

Chaz

[Andrew Young]

The way this thread has gone reminds me of Ivan Maxstead's layouts 'Darenth', Southern Region ex- Colonel Stephens line which had three incarnations that I know of, in OO, EM and O and was written up in MRJ, issues 15, 16 and 55 respectively. They offer some thought and consideration to the costs of the three different scale / gauge combinations and How much railway you can fit in the space, makes for s good read for those contemplating such a move.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Simond]

Thanks Andrew,

 

My collection of MRJ is somewhat sparse, I think it started after the issues you mention, and finished when we emigrated to India in 2007. We came back in 2010, but I did not re-start my subscription. As the Bob Barlow Finescale Review sadly stopped so prematurely, I may start MRJ again.

 

Was there a conclusion to their experiments?

 

I could imagine something like £ = area^x * length^y * number-of-locos^z + C

 

Best

Simon

[Andrew Young]

If I remember correctly, without having the issues to hand, essentially the same conclusion as Chris. The larger the scale, the smaller the amount of track and stock therefore not that dissimilar costs between the scales.

 

The main cost comparison and the most interesting one for me is the 7mm scale article in issue 55.

 

Andrew

[Dava]

The idea that 7mm scale has to cost a lot is incorrect, you can model on a shoestring. I have an article in a future Gauge 0 Gazette demonstrating this but in the meantime Cornamuse and Jim Read both show how: http://www.jasread.com/micro/index.html

 

The more you build, proportionally the less it costs. There are trade-offs between standards, costs and time invested. Jim only bought the motor for his card Y7. My current microlayout project was of necessity built entirely from reclaimed materials and foamboard. I have bought some RTR stock I wanted (only one of each!) but at least have somewhere to run and photograph them. Building is more fun but takes longer. In 2016 I hope to have time to build a loco kit.

 

Now where's that kitten? Cats are possibly lower running costs than dogs....

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106479-cats-railways-life/page-2&do=findComment&comment=2145723

 

Dava