KWVR flooded - but now open again

[coachmann]

'Valleys' and 'flood plains' are clues that our beloved BBC missed when talking about flood water. Then there was Labour Councillor on SkyNews who spent 5 minutes of his interview lambasting the Government, but when asked if he would care to tell viewers what his party had done when in Government, his reply was "Do we really need to get into party politics?". Zapped!

[jonny777]

My eldest son's home in Bingley, adjacent to the River Aire, but 3 metres above it, came within about 2 inches of the river going through his living room yesterday.

 

How lucky was that?

 

And it is so sad to hear of the many thousands who have not been so lucky.

[APOLLO]

Found this very interesting map today cruising the net.

 

 

 

 It's storm Desmond from early December but this weather system is still in place. The dark red is Precipatable clouds, making a bee line from the Pacific to NW England !!!

 

Layered precipitable water imagery of a particularly strong atmospheric river stretching from the Caribbean to the United Kingdom on 5 December 2015, caused by Storm Desmond. A second atmospheric river, which originated from the Phillipines, can be seen in the Pacific Ocean off the west coast of North America.

 

More info here

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/atmrivers/

 

This system is rumoured to stay in place "for several weeks". Probably an "El Nino" effect.

 

We had some localised flooding in Wigan yesterday, not too serious though, but the newly built defences on the River Douglas were inundated. They simply were not designed for the water flows / time they received yesterday.

 

Stay dry folks and good luck.

 

Brit15

[jonny777]

I would urge a great deal of caution in trying to interpret that kind of imagery.

[APOLLO]

I would urge a great deal of caution in trying to interpret that kind of imagery.

Why ? - Honest question,

 

I'm not a climatologist, and the pattern seems to fit what was (and still is) happening since 5 Dec.

 

Brit15

[jonny777]

Why? Because those images will change on an hourly basis, and what was accurate for early December is not going to be accurate for today, or any other part of December for that matter.

 

There is no guide to the thickness or height of the clouds, nor how quickly they are moving; all of which can make a vast difference to the amounts of rainfall received by the UK.

[APOLLO]

You have a point that this information changes by the hour, and is not the complete story. But the rainfall the NW England has received in the last 48 hours seems to coincide to a very similar pattern.

 

Well we will wait and see the map for the current storm EVA for the last couple of days to see if they co-relate.

 

Brit15

[jonny777]

Well, yes; the maps will look similar, but that is nothing new.

 

The Gulf Stream always brings lots of rain laden cloud from the tropics (near to Florida/Gulf Of Mexico) over the British Isles in the Autumn and Winter - just ask those who live in Southwestern Ireland any year.

 

What has been different this year is the exceptional mildness with southerly winds, and that in simple terms means much warmer air to meet the cold polar winds trying to push south. The bigger the temperature contrast across the polar weather front, the bigger the potential for heavy rain.

 

And if that front stalls over parts of the UK for 24/48 hours, the heavy rain just keeps falling over those parts. Add on the effect of the lower cloud layers being forced up over the mountains by a gale force wind and you have the ideal conditions for record rainfall amounts over a wide area.

[Phil Bullock]

Deforestation and overgrazing don't help either - not as much rain gets soaked up by vegetation so therefore more run off into the rivers and lakes. Somebody was also making a good point on Facebook earlier about ponds and rivers not being as deep as they used to be and that they can't take as much water.

 

Good to hear trains going up and down the Worth Valley this afternoon, but interesting to note that there's nothing running on the Airedale or Wharefdale lines at the moment save for services between Bradford and Ilkley - Leeds to Carlisle trains currently starting at Skipton.

There is much that can be done to improve upland catchments - have a look at http://www.wyeuskfoundation.org/projects/index.php

 

Main 3 winners are:

 

Over grazing as stated

 

Deforestation - yes please! Deciduous are just fine but the vast expanses of upland conifer planting are a nightmare. Reinstatement of the natural bogs which retain water and are the natural reservoirs on the river systems is key

 

Ploughing - contour ploughing on hill sides reduces run off and soil erosion rather then ploughing straight up hills as modern powerful agricultural machinery now facilitates

 

Earlier comments about both upland and flood plain building are also key - any new scheme needs to have capacity to slow down the flow of water away from it rather than increase run off.

 

Achieving these ideals is a win - win - reduced flooding risk and better quality rivers with more predictable extreme flows, benefits to both our own species and also the rest of the ecosystem.

 

Phil

[Dagworth]

Flood defence spending cut by 8% http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12402284

Moorlands peat that should absorb rainfall burned to improve grouse shooting 

http://newint.org/blog/2012/08/20/hebden-bridge-moor/

 

http://www.energyroyd.org.uk/archives/14692

 

 

results come home to roost

[Legend]

Cant help feeling that no matter how many flood defences we build the rain will still fall in the wrong place. This time it's Cumbria , Lancashire and Yorkshire that's copping it. Previously it's been the Somerset Levels and Wales.

 

I think it's time to look at some basics. dredge the rivers and drains we have, reinstate bog land , re-Forrest. Stop the water just running off the land . We have had lots of rain before but maybe we managed it better.

 

This sounds a bit trite and I don't mean to be , but I suspect some good housekeeping would go along way to help.

 

Above all thoughts to people who are affected. Being flooded out like that and to lose possessions , many of them personal and irreplaceable , must be horrific.

[t-b-g]

I was talking to an old Water Board employee about it and he predicted increased flooding to me some time ago. He reckons that it was on the cards ever since the responsibility for clearing drains/culverts etc. changed a few years ago. Previously it was a "Water Board" job and they sent gangs out every summer clearing vegetation and blockages. It changed as part of privatisation and I can't remember who he said was responsible now (might be local authorities) but around our way, the dykes and ditches have hardly been touched since and many are blocked, causing rainwater to run to places where it never used to.

 

He might be right or he might be wrong but it sounded a convincing possible cause to me. Instead of draining away onto the farmlands as it used to, heavy rain goes straight down to the big rivers.

[Legend]

You can actually see that on the roads. Once there were teams out clearing leaves after the autumn fall. Now they are just left to clog up drains. Result..................surprise , the roads get flooded! Now if that lack of maintenance is happening on a larger scale........t.b.g confirms the suspicion

[Reorte]

I think it's time to look at some basics. dredge the rivers and drains we have, reinstate bog land , re-Forrest. Stop the water just running off the land . We have had lots of rain before but maybe we managed it better.

At the risk of getting a bit political and possibly touching delicate issues, that's pretty much the opposite of the high-populatioin, maximise economic activity society that we've got, and human nature will keep us with, much as I wish it was otherwise.

[Legend]

Yes but when the population and economy are affected even in a very materialistic society people take notice. Yesterday the Irwell through Manchester, Salford was affected. Leeds also has had flooding , so it's not just a country problem the big cities are getting it too.

[58herbie]

Cant help feeling that no matter how many flood defences we build the rain will still fall in the wrong place. This time it's Cumbria , Lancashire and Yorkshire that's copping it. Previously it's been the Somerset Levels and Wales.

 

I think it's time to look at some basics. dredge the rivers and drains we have, reinstate bog land , re-Forrest. Stop the water just running off the land . We have had lots of rain before but maybe we managed it better.

 

This sounds a bit trite and I don't mean to be , but I suspect some good housekeeping would go along way to help.

 

Above all thoughts to people who are affected. Being flooded out like that and to lose possessions , many of them personal and irreplaceable , must be horrific.

Cumbria hasn't just been hit this time.

 

Carlisle 10 years ago.

Workington, Cockermouth, Keswick 2009

All these where ment to be 1/100 year storm. Yea right

[Dagworth]

of course, people might one day learn what a flood plain is...

[Reorte]

Cumbria hasn't just been hit this time.

 

Carlisle 10 years ago.

Workington, Cockermouth, Keswick 2009

All these where ment to be 1/100 year storm. Yea right

Possibly, if nothing else changes that affects the odds. 1 in a 100 doesn't mean every 100 years on the dot, statistically (without even trying to figure it out) it's not completely implausible.

[rockershovel]

Peterborough has flooding, severe in a few localities but nothing you wouldn't expect if you know the area; 1997 was worse. I remember suspending operations on land rigs drilling for the NCB in Vale of York and deploying the pumps for flood relief in York, and that was in the 1970s. I worked on a flood relief scheme for a Cornish village in the 1990s which could have been achieved at a fraction of the cost, by ripping up the car park built over the decades in the valley which had previously served the same function.

 

Whether it is genuinely worse now, I don't care to speculate but it is certainly much more widely and rapidly reported.

[Fat Controller]

of course, people might one day learn what a flood plain is...

734662_10153292542967308_6756270096316420234_n.jpg

Reminds me of a colleague who'd said he was going to look at a house in our village over the weekend. Come the following week, I asked him how it had gone; 'Not bad' said he 'Lovely view over the lake'. I had to explain that what he'd seen wasn't a lake, but the village cricket ground, at that point under about five feet of water.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

What needs to be part of the debate is what is normal and natural.

 

The Paris basin is due its once in a century inundation, last happened in 1910, and there were regular such events recorded previously. Current urban development will make it worse the next time: and it is going to happen. 

 

A river trip Rhine - Main - Canal - Danube was most revealing with flood levels marked on ancient buildings of C15th and C16th inundations far in excess of anything in the past 200 years.

 

It simply has to be accepted that natural variation in the weather can lead to precipitation beyond what any reasonably affordable drainage scheme can cope with.

[BlackRat]

of course, people might one day learn what a flood plain is...

734662_10153292542967308_6756270096316420234_n.jpg

And I guarantee that the development will still go ahead!

[Zunnan]

Then there was *party deleted...so as to be 'unbiased'* a Councillor on SkyNews who spent 5 minutes of his interview lambasting the Government, but when asked if he would care to tell viewers what his party had done when in Government, his reply was "Do we really need to get into party politics?". Zapped!

 

 

 

I think it's time to look at some basics. dredge the rivers and drains we have, reinstate bog land , re-Forrest. Stop the water just running off the land . We have had lots of rain before but maybe we managed it better.

 

 

They can't dredge, not without incurring fines and having to dispose of considerable quantities of 'hazardous waste' in a suitable manner...aka sediment. Some clever people signed us up to the European Water Framework Directive in 2000, and since then the Environment Agency has been operating to an obligation to achieve 'good ecological status' with the nations rivers. The EWF defines this as being 'undisturbed natural conditions', under the directive a dredged river or one where the banks are maintained by definition become 'heavily modified waters' and so cannot meet the good ecological status requirements. Not only that, but the responsibility for dredging was moved away from the EA and into the laps of individual landowners with all funding cut. And, as the sediments dredged were reclassified as hazardous waste they cannot now be used for banking (which is what had previously been used...for centuries, literally), which adds further to the costs as material then has to be shipped in to maintain the banks.

 

 

I was talking to an old Water Board employee about it and he predicted increased flooding to me some time ago. He reckons that it was on the cards ever since the responsibility for clearing drains/culverts etc. changed a few years ago. Previously it was a "Water Board" job and they sent gangs out every summer clearing vegetation and blockages. It changed as part of privatisation and I can't remember who he said was responsible now (might be local authorities) but around our way, the dykes and ditches have hardly been touched since and many are blocked, causing rainwater to run to places where it never used to.

 

He might be right or he might be wrong but it sounded a convincing possible cause to me. Instead of draining away onto the farmlands as it used to, heavy rain goes straight down to the big rivers.

 

I think he was absolutely correct, but officials nowdays won't admit to it, its not their problem and not their doing as they're following EU guidelines for maintaining waterways. Reservoir catchment has also suffered as the channels and ditches are no longer maintained, and so are considerably less effective...hence we get water shortages so easily, even when it is literally lashing down. I've had similar discussion with water people as my job often has me crossing paths when I'm sent to pull lines to provide their telemetry equipment, the older guys who have been around for a long time will give you chapter and verse if you take the discussion the right way.

 

Remember this the next time water defenses are discussed; dredging is pretty much outlawed via the back door, the Environment Agency has no power to carry it out, and there is no funding for landowners who would be willing to dredge. The flooding in Somerset was almost certainly down to lack of maintaining the banks and dredging the waterways, and although not entirely the cause or an instant cure in this case, keeping on top of dredging would have helped to reduce the devastation we are currently witnessing.

[Mike Bellamy]

I made a posting in the now locked 'Flooding' topic that appears to contradict some of your comments - I have copied the text below. You will note that the video confirms that Land and Water Ltd were contractors to the Environment Agency and that the sediment removed was placed on the bank although some was placed in trailers for 'local disposal' - is it really hazardous waste?
 

I can't find the link now but I recall reading postings on a Classic Car Forum from a manager with Land And Water Ltd who were dredging the waterways of the Somerset Levels after the floods there - he posted links to media reports accusing the EA for doing too little too late but pointed out that the job had been booked into their schedule months before the floods and it was just unfortunate timing that they were there after the flood and not before otherwise no one would have noticed the work being done.

Interesting to read their case studies of the many projects they are involved with
http://www.land-water.co.uk/

 

 
On another forum a member of EA staff (not involved in the areas currently affected) has commented

 

Wholesale dredging is not the answer and, contrary to what the media would have everyone believe, targeted channel clearance has been taking place across many parts of the U.K. In recent years anyway.

As for the EA doing more, it's not solely the EA's job to manage flooding in England. The responsibility is split across several different organisations for different sources and sizes of watercourse or sections of coast. The problem lies with Government and how they set out management of flooding in the UK, and the conflicts that necessary legislation has with other priorities they have - for instance, we can give advice on not building in the flood plain, or to change the design of a development to reduce risk, but it's not mandatory for a planning authority to listen to the advice and they can completely ignore it if they choose to. The elements of risk that sit with local authorities are often managed as best as possible, but many are lucky if they have a drainage engineer at all and often flood risk work is undertaken alongside roads, managing parks etc by one person.

Believe me, the problem is not with those who want to DO the work, it's with the mechanisms and resourcing to enable us to get it done.

 

 

 

.

[Reorte]

I notice in that quote above it mentions "targeted channel clearance", which sounds like spin on "plug the holes when they appear instead of basic, continual maintenance". But as long as there's no short-term economic gain to be made by doing more it won't get done. Oh, there'll be some cries about the costs when everything floods again but it'll all be forgotten once everything else has dried out.