Andy Y Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 [Admin - Content Removed] This will probably get shot down as "politics" ................ [Admin - Content Removed] Yes; please accept this as a warning not to post further political comment on this or any other topic. I've had more complaints and reports over your posts over the last month than anyone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2016 Then let them work to an amended timetable, I can't image a huge amount of VWC journeys begin and end in Carlisle. Booked passenger services between Gretna Junction and Carstairs on weekdays are 30 each way for VT and 15 each way for TP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 So if they now require for the next month (at least) to have Voyagers on a shuttle service between Glasgow and Carlisle does that mean existing Voyager services may have to use the spare Pendolinos released by all electric Anglo-Scottish services terminating at Carlisle? What services are currently Voyager, wasn't Birmingham to Glasgow one of the Voyager turns which could be turned over to Pendolino with no need for Thunderbirds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2016 Line capacity between Kilmarnock and Barrhead would be a problem for diversions or drags due to the two single line sections. These means that there is space for about three trains per hour each way. Given that there is a half hourly service between Glasgow and Kilmarnock that only leaves one path per hour for diverted trains. Most of the Birmingham trains are Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow or Edinburgh and are now generally worked by Class 390. Added to that, most of the Manchester Airport trains are worked by Class 350 emus. VT Voyagers are mainly used on services to the North Wales line plus the odd Shrewsbury and Blackpool working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulr1949 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 My son and his partner had to return to Glasgow today, after Christmas in the less-rain-sodden-south, they caught their booked train (0945 Euston-Carlisle) and changed to another train with a 6 minute connection. The train via the GSW was, I assume, a pendolino hauled - realtime trains schedule showed it as timed at 213 mph!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Bad news from @NetworkRailSCOT on twitter: Quote #Lamington The Viaduct is to remain closed until end of January. Significant damage caused by #StormFrank likely to take a month to repair And the obvious riders on this are that this winter is far from over, we could be up to storm 'you name it' by the end of January; and the damage that has occurred isn't necessarily a stable state, nothing to say it will not develop further. At least there is a diversionary route, whatever inconveniences it may entail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 3, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2016 There are other diversions operating. There's a Mossend/Daventry Freightliner en route at the moment via Carstairs, Millerhill, Newcastle,York, Water Orton and Walsall with a return working in the system, both diesel hauled for obvious reasons. I suspect that there will be more in days to come. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Do we seem to have more storms this year, now that they're being named? Even some flooding down here in Dorset just round the corner from me this afternoon..... Sorry for going off-topic, but the "Flooding" thread has been locked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 There are other diversions operating. There's a Mossend/Daventry Freightliner en route at the moment via Carstairs, Millerhill, Newcastle,York, Water Orton and Walsall with a return working in the system, both diesel hauled for obvious reasons. I suspect that there will be more in days to come. Jamie The Caledonian Sleeper is reversing at Wembley to get to/from the ECML. The Inverness portion is routed via Aberdeen. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Virgin's fleet utilisation is so high that I don't think it'd make a difference. They simply don't have any spare trains to allow long unplanned diversions. Yet once upon a time any loco avaiable regardless of its regular duties would be put into service to drag electrics; the wonders of privatisation ever fail to amaze Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2016 Yet once upon a time any loco avaiable regardless of its regular duties would be put into service to drag electrics; the wonders of privatisation ever fail to amaze It's got little to do with privatisation and a lot more to do with other things. Putting together a trainplan for a hauled diversion via the only alternative route would require a lot of cancellations simply to get a halfway normal service south of Carlisle due to the extended journey time and lack of available paths. In a realistic plan I couldn't see more than half a dozen (three each way) hauled diversions of Pendolinos in a day without hacking to pieces the service south of Carlisle - emergency plans need to be simple in order to work well and reliably (tee shirts are available). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_A Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Enhanced image of Lamington Viaduct's disrupted pier. https://twitter.com/markannand/status/683056806776668160 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 At least it seems plans have been made and are working lets hope the viaduct is not out of action for long,bet many rail workers are slogging away making it all happen well done lads and lasses you are appreciated by many people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 It does seem that on a mile-for-mile basis, our railway system is much more vulnerable to weather-related damage than trunk roads and motorways, which is not good for the long-term future of the railway network. I wonder if it's now time for Network Rail to start realigning vulnerable bits of the network, rather than just repairing them? After all, very little of the main road network is on the alignment that existed 150 years ago, but diversions of the railway are pretty rare. Perhaps the bridge at Lamington would be a good place to start, to allow for higher flows in the river in the future? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 It does rather seem that by the time the winter is over we'll be on Storm Zebedee ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I am sure many years ago a bridge on the diversion route was replaced because of something similar and the old track used by a local to run an 03 on maybe this will happen again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 It does seem that on a mile-for-mile basis, our railway system is much more vulnerable to weather-related damage than trunk roads and motorways, which is not good for the long-term future of the railway network. I wonder if it's now time for Network Rail to start realigning vulnerable bits of the network, rather than just repairing them? After all, very little of the main road network is on the alignment that existed 150 years ago, but diversions of the railway are pretty rare. Perhaps the bridge at Lamington would be a good place to start, to allow for higher flows in the river in the future? The height of the Clyde at Lamington was not the issue, rather it was the force of water scouring the piers. Certainly protection for this vital part of river bridges would be worth reviewing. Regarding raising lines, this was suggested by the local council the last time the route at Hinksey, south of Oxford, was closed by flooding, however there are major practical difficulties; You can't raise one bit of track each night ! The length of closure required to raise a whole section of a route would quite likely amount to longer than the route had ever been closed by flooding. It should also be noted that during the heavy rain last Wednesday the M74 motorway in Scotland was closed for a time by flooding, and there were a couple of A roads closed by landslips. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2016 ......................... In a realistic plan I couldn't see more than half a dozen (three each way) hauled diversions of Pendolinos in a day without hacking to pieces the service south of Carlisle - emergency plans need to be simple in order to work well and reliably (tee shirts are available). STP paths now appearing in Realtime Trains. So far 6 southbound and 2 northbound. It looks like two sets being used so far. The round trip is about five hours for one of those uploaded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Enhanced image of Lamington Viaduct's disrupted pier. https://twitter.com/markannand/status/683056806776668160 I'm no civil engineer, but that looks serious. The stonework has fallen and cracked, one large stone missing. It's the damage you can't see under the river which will concern Network Rail engineers. I suspect extensive sheet piling and pier foundation rebuilding / strengthening will be required, not easy on a fast flowing river in mid winter, with yet more rainfall to come. Network Rail have their work cut out. I'll take a guess at 2 to 3 months. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted January 3, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2016 I'm no civil engineer, but that looks serious. The stonework has fallen and cracked, one large stone missing. It's the damage you can't see under the river which will concern Network Rail engineers. I suspect extensive sheet piling and pier foundation rebuilding / strengthening will be required, not easy on a fast flowing river in mid winter, with yet more rainfall to come. Network Rail have their work cut out. I'll take a guess at 2 to 3 months. Brit15 Indeed. I suspect they'll drive in sheet piles to make a kind of mote right the way around the pier. Only then will any repair to the pier itself be possible. At the moment they are saying the end of January, beginning of Feb. I think that's a little optimistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitalspark Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 The WCML is a 125mph electrified railway equipped for tilting trains whereas the GSW is not. The normal expectation is an additional 60 minutes minimum to divert via the GSW vice the WCML, plus there is a need to change at Carlisle; Through trains beyond Carlisle cannot operate due to lack of diesel trains. This is also a factor the limiting the frequency of the diverted service, along with the perennial issue of Traincrews with route knowledge. Far from discouraging passengers Virgin Trains and Network Rail are doing their utmost to provide a service. Other Operators are assisting, with mutual ticket acceptance agreed and Transpennine running additional trains between Edinburgh and Newcastle. But hey, why miss the chance to do down the railway on the basis of incorrect and incomplete information. My apologies if my post was seen as doing down the railway companies in these exceptional times..agree poor choice of words given the circumstances however it is a fact that the privatised companies have in the past been very quick to substitute bus replacement on cost grounds rather than for the passengers benefit. On this occasion after looking at it the logistics of routing all trains over the still partly singled diversionary route would be beyond its capacity so some services would still require road replacement. However not so many years ago when the WCML was being upgraded there was a full occupation north of Carlisle from Sat night through to later on Sunday every weekend for many months and the later trains were terminated at Carlisle with replacement buses even although this was scheduled work and many trains could have been re routed. Reason for this was purely cost as the last few trains into Carlisle only required a fews coaches for onward travel whereas another locomotive and line access charges would be much more. So it was a case of cheapest option there and I'm sorry to be cynical but I still wonder if this applies to some extent albeit outwith this difficult case. On they extra time taken even at present the best timing can be seen to be extended by 45mins not 90..and even given an extra 15mins changeover at Carlisle thats an hour. Certainly modern coaches on the M74 can easily do Glasgow inside 2 hrs if no hold ups but not everyone wants to travel by coach. I still have connections with the railway and a great respect for the men involved and know the routes well and have had the privilege of travelling on the footplate on both routes many times. The diversionary route is still a proper mainline however the shortsightedness of the railway a few years ago and the lure of savings has cost it dearly in reducing capacity due to partial singling. This is hopefully now being addressed with plans to restore much of the double track..lest hope it comes to fruition. The WCML have a priceless asset in a diversionary route that they have ignored. They need to grasp and fully invest because this won't be the last time things grind to a halt due to an incident of one type or another. Mind you if its only a few trains to divert the cost of sourcing locos & drivers with knowledge and paying the access charges will probably still result in coaches playing a major part..or am I being cynical again. Apologies for length of reply and original badly worded post. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 3, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2016 Having just looked at Realtime Trains the STP working seem to be a Carlisle-Glasgow timed as a DMU which will then presumably connect with southbound services at Carlisle. So it doesn't look as if it's going to be a drag of a Pendolino. It will e interesting to see what it is. However I'm very glad that some service is being put on. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Why not an emergency rejig of the timetable. All Ex Euston Pendolinos to Carlisle & back, some Pendos from Birmingham to Carlisle with Voyager shuttles Carlisle to Glasgow via Dumfries augmented with coaches on the motorway as needed. Surely such contingency plans to rejig services for long term line outages exist - or don't they ?. Probably don't - it's 2016 !!! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purley Oaks Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 At least Lamington Viaduct is relatively easily accessible from the A702 a mile or so north of Abington and about 5 south of Biggar. However not so many years ago when the WCML was being upgraded there was a full occupation north of Carlisle from Sat night through to later on Sunday every weekend for many months and the later trains were terminated at Carlisle with replacement buses even although this was scheduled work and many trains could have been re routed. Yep, my wife was on a rail replacement bus back then between Carlisle and Edinburgh on a cold winter's night. The bus travelled through Penicuik, about 10 miles south of Edinburgh and the driver refused to allow a passenger (no, not my wife!) off because the train didn't stop there. Said passenger will have had at least an hour added onto his/her journey. Course, if everyone wanted different stops it wouldn't be feasible, but just this once, on a chill night? Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitalspark Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Having just looked at Realtime Trains the STP working seem to be a Carlisle-Glasgow timed as a DMU which will then presumably connect with southbound services at Carlisle. So it doesn't look as if it's going to be a drag of a Pendolino. It will e interesting to see what it is. However I'm very glad that some service is being put on. Jamie Two coach 156 reseated to local SPT configuration. Not much different from a bus I suppose. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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