Family 8x4 OO layout - Trains running again.

[Jaggzuk]

A couple of extra photos of the wagons with the closest coupling, the glued attachment version, on R2 curves; the inner buffers are just touching.  To be honest the protruding draft box is not too obvious once the wagon are on the track.

 

 

 

 

[Jaggzuk]

Another set of wagons done with Kadee couplings.  I like this, getting in to the swing of things and completing each wagon much quicker!

 

This time the wagons were old Hornby OBA with very big clunky TLC.  The finished effort is so much better.

 

A full set of how to photos can be found here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24427-kadee-couplers/?p=2785460

 

 

A before and after comparison

 

What shall I do next?

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[nicolasgreenin]

Great work Paul fantastic quality as always.

 

These look great I am goibg to keep a keen eye on how this little project goes as I really like the way you can uncoupling over a couple of magnets.

 

The wagons do look great close coupled and the kadee coupling looks so much better then the TLC.

[LongRail]

Thanks, 9mm that is small. Yes I am building a camera truck currently using a Hornby Lowmac but changed the plastic wheels for metal ones as the plastic ones were not fully round and created a bit of vibration. purchased a Yuntab outdoor Sports Action Camera Warrior G1S as it is smaller than your camera but also has a wireless link to my ipad

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LL92BMI/ref=pe_385721_37986871_TE_item

will post some photos when I get a bit further.

 

 

Finally got around to taking photos of my camera car as below.

the camera is fixed by bolting through from below using a 1/4" D-Ring Screw For Camera Tripod which cost me £1.39 incl postage

I have left the back off as it makes turning the camera on and off easier  uses a strange combination of buttons

[Zomboid]

Are you intending to use uncoupling magnets?

If not, then they look even better if you snip the tail off. If you are, then they won't work without it...

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Zomboid

 

I shall be using Neodymium magnets as I have seen these suggested on other RMWeb topics, plus a couple of videos I found pretty much explain how you get delayed coupling with Kadee.  Two different instillation methods of the Neodymium magnets can be seen

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N2q_6PFuzc

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nci5DDmblIQ

[Jaggzuk]

Finally got around to taking photos of my camera car

 

Very neat and slimline too.  Looks like a better loading gauge than mine and no need of a bespoke hand built camtruck, very impressed!

 

Shall look forward to seeing some video.

[Jaggzuk]

Well summer hols are over, kids back to school and so a bit of a catch up is due.

 

The over the summer spare play time has been spend mostly playing trains rather than any modelling being done.  But I did manage to get about 2/3 of the way through a Metcalfe kit (Sand house and water tower) whilst on a two week camping holiday.  Photos to come when I have added them the to the planned engine shed building.

 

I have been looking/researching at how to improve and weather my set of Railraod HAA coal wagons.  My shopping list of the bits I will need is now set and I know what I can easily achieve.  So this will be an Autumn project I think.

 

I have also had a it more of a play with Kadee on various older non NEM wagons to see what is the main Kadee type I need.  A #156 "Scale" Whisker Coupler, Long (25/64") version is looking like the most common I will need.  As well pleny of the NEM ones, No. 18 and No. 19.

 

But as my collection of wagons with fitted Kadee is now growing, we are now having a bit of an issue with mixed coupling types and playing sessions!  Our Class 08 has both types coupling and this does not always work out well; a kadee just does not work with a tension hook coupling.  

 

So I have come up with a idea and taken a bit of inspiration from the Class 03 Match Truck and come up with a Class 08 "Coupling Converter Truck".  The purpose is to allow the easy conversion between the coupling types whilst shunting.  I have also had a bash at weathering it.

 

As I had a few Conflat wagons spare,  I tried to copy this source inspiration. https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/4153199952/

 

This is my result.

 

Original on left, weathered right, odd effect of the weathering is that it has made it look smaller?  Ex Works Class 08 ;-)

 

 

Variety of paints used, Humbrol Enamel, Model Air and Humbrol Wash

 

 

 

Might add some powder dusting?

 

I might add a few tools and tail lamps on top at a later date.  I also want to add vacuum and air pipes.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[fishytrains]

To my untrained eye, the weathering looks pretty good. I might have to follow suit at some point in terms of converting to Kadee couplers and having a period of mixed coupling types.

 

Mike

[Jaggzuk]

Another Kadee trail, this time a Lima PWA fertiliser wagon.

 

Full details here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24427-kadee-couplers/?p=2846524

 

Before

 

 

 

After

 

 

 

A major improvement I think.  

 

Now to the weathering, http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ukfvan/h537217B0#h537217b0 mmm might hold on for until I get a bit better.  A definite airbrush job.  I have both Fisons and UKF wagons to do and they always looked very grubby

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[Jaggzuk]

Ok I am not setting a precedent here and going this far with every wagon I have!  But I thought I would have a go and try to re-create the break pipes on the Match Wagon in this top photo  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45015-br-class-03-with-match-truck/?p=2805720

 

The vacuum pipe was created using 1mm copper wire with braided nylon rapped round it, glued, and then stained black.  The air break pipes were formed from 0.7mm copper wire with solder blobs for the couplings and a tiny bits or wire soldered on to form the valves.  All painted and weathered up.

 

Close up it all looks a bit clunky, but that the 2 foot viewing distance, looks fine.

 

Kadee end

 

 

At the NEM TLC end , but removed for effect.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[ess1uk]

Another Kadee trail, this time a Lima PWA fertiliser wagon.

 

Full details here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24427-kadee-couplers/?p=2846524

 

Before

 

IMG_8532.JPG

 

 

After

 

IMG_8531.JPG

 

 

A major improvement I think.  

 

Now to the weathering, http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ukfvan/h537217B0#h537217b0 mmm might hold on for until I get a bit better.  A definite airbrush job.  I have both Fisons and UKF wagons to do and they always looked very grubby

that looks so much better than the standard Lima coupling

must do my PWA wagons

[Jaggzuk]

that looks so much better than the standard Lima coupling

must do my PWA wagons

 

They were so easy to do too, so the effort was very rewarding.

[rogerv]

Good afternoon sir (I haven't picked up your real name!) 

 

I've spent a great couple of hours skim-browsing your thread.  What a wonderful layout, and you seem to cover every aspect of RM ...

 

I am a "late returner" to RM (i.e. retired, kids left home) and I am designing an 8x4 for my (newly) spare bedroom.  Your design is so close to what I hope to achieve and I wonder if you can help me ...

 

You appear to have two tail-chasing loops AND an over and under branch (goods) line - all this on 8x4?

 

To come to the point though.  Please, what are your main curve radii (they look to be Setrack), and what gradients did you end up with on the inclines?  Did you do +40 and -40mm, which is what I am hoping for ...

 

I would really appreciate the lessons of your hard-earned experience.

 

Kind regards.  Roger.

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Roger,

 

The name is Paul, thought I had signed it at least once, perhaps on the planning topic for the layout?

 

Anyway to you questions.

 

Yep all the loops, sidings, gradients etc in an 8x4.  Sounds cramped and when viewed from the air, you can see the "toy" like appearance.  But I have lots of different locations around the layout board, that when you get down at track level and really close, you get to watch trains running by like being stood on the boundary fence and the loopyness/tail-chasing nature of the layout disappears.

 

Key stats

• Min radius is 2nd radius which is the loop going down and under the flyover.
• The max is 4th which are the two outer loops going through the tunnels.  
• The station areas is at +40mm and the main baseboard in at zero
• The flyover is at +85mm with rail to rail being 75mm and 65mm clearance to bridge soffit
• Gradients are all 3%
• Points, all main line points are medium radius where as the sidings are mostly settrack

My boys love playing on it and to be honest we have not found it too limiting only being 8x4 and a bit of a tail chaser.  There are two separate loops, the outer (tunnels) and the flyover, so you can race two trains, which the boys love; especially when I have fiddled with the max speed CV settings, Tut Tut ;-)

 

Would I want to go smaller, no - bigger yes.  10x4 would have been nice with a longer station so that trains would not have to stop on the points.

 

Foxwood Park does have a younger (but bigger) brother http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122082-brambleford-layout-dcc-concepts-powerbase/?p=2726752 which might be of interest.  This is a 10x4 layout.

[rogerv]

Hi Roger,

 

The name is Paul, thought I had signed it at least once, perhaps on the planning topic for the layout?

 

Anyway to you questions.

 

Yep all the loops, sidings, gradients etc in an 8x4.  Sounds cramped and when viewed from the air, you can see the "toy" like appearance.  But I have lots of different locations around the layout board, that when you get down at track level and really close, you get to watch trains running by like being stood on the boundary fence and the loopyness/tail-chasing nature of the layout disappears.

 

Key stats

• Min radius is 2nd radius which is the loop going down and under the flyover.
• The max is 4th which are the two outer loops going through the tunnels.  
• The station areas is at +40mm and the main baseboard in at zero
• The flyover is at +85mm with rail to rail being 75mm and 65mm clearance to bridge soffit
• Gradients are all 3%
• Points, all main line points are medium radius where as the sidings are mostly settrack

My boys love playing on it and to be honest we have not found it too limiting only being 8x4 and a bit of a tail chaser.  There are two separate loops, the outer (tunnels) and the flyover, so you can race two trains, which the boys love; especially when I have fiddled with the max speed CV settings, Tut Tut ;-)

 

Would I want to go smaller, no - bigger yes.  10x4 would have been nice with a longer station so that trains would not have to stop on the points.

 

Foxwood Park does have a younger (but bigger) brother http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122082-brambleford-layout-dcc-concepts-powerbase/?p=2726752 which might be of interest.  This is a 10x4 layout.

 

Thank you so much, Paul, for such a comprehensive and lucid response. 

 

After my previous post I found an earlier thread of yours which records the development from scratch.  It is uncanny how closely your thinking mirrored my own after about 4 weeks of musing and sketching on graph paper!  So now for the $64 question - is there any way you could send me a scaled track plan that doesn't require me to buy the layout software you used.  I would happily reimburse you for the time and effort involved ...

 

 I have just downloaded the Anyrail freeware, but the learning curve seems so steep for what will probably be my first and last "serious" layout.

 

Kind regards.  Roger.

 

P.S. Are you a rock climber or a bridge painter?! 

[rogerv]

Hi Roger,

 

The name is Paul, thought I had signed it at least once, perhaps on the planning topic for the layout?

 

Anyway to you questions.

 

Yep all the loops, sidings, gradients etc in an 8x4.  Sounds cramped and when viewed from the air, you can see the "toy" like appearance.  But I have lots of different locations around the layout board, that when you get down at track level and really close, you get to watch trains running by like being stood on the boundary fence and the loopyness/tail-chasing nature of the layout disappears.

 

Key stats

• Min radius is 2nd radius which is the loop going down and under the flyover.
• The max is 4th which are the two outer loops going through the tunnels.  
• The station areas is at +40mm and the main baseboard in at zero
• The flyover is at +85mm with rail to rail being 75mm and 65mm clearance to bridge soffit
• Gradients are all 3%
• Points, all main line points are medium radius where as the sidings are mostly settrack

My boys love playing on it and to be honest we have not found it too limiting only being 8x4 and a bit of a tail chaser.  There are two separate loops, the outer (tunnels) and the flyover, so you can race two trains, which the boys love; especially when I have fiddled with the max speed CV settings, Tut Tut ;-)

 

Would I want to go smaller, no - bigger yes.  10x4 would have been nice with a longer station so that trains would not have to stop on the points.

 

Foxwood Park does have a younger (but bigger) brother http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122082-brambleford-layout-dcc-concepts-powerbase/?p=2726752 which might be of interest.  This is a 10x4 layout.

 

Hello again Paul.

 

Please ignore my previous post, I now realise I was being rather lazy!

 

I have since downloaded your "final" JPEG, scaled it to a width of 24 cm (aka 2.4m), and printed it off.  The definition doesn't allow me to read the actual track section codes, though I can see they are a mixture of Hornby and Peco!

 

So, now I can start the plagiarisation.  I am going to stick with pencil and paper and my college drawing instruments( but I've left my slide rule in the loft).

 

I've also cleared an area on my living room floor (stripped pine boards) so I can prototype "segments" of the whole thing bit by bit.  Just waiting for my 4th radius curves and WS inclines to arrive ...

 

Meanwhile, my lovely children are taking me on a steam excursion from Euston to the S&C  as a birthday treat, so I'll be able to get a feel for the real thing ...

 

Regards.  Roger.

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Roger

 

if you PM me your email address I will send you a higher resolution image of the track plan for you.

 

Shall look forward to seeing your progress and hope the kids enjoy the build :-)

[Jaggzuk]

I Have been making considerable progress on the Kadee conversion front.  Firstly, with some time stuck in a hotel whilst working away I have had some free time to convert 18 short wheelbase trucks (mainly POW and Conflats) .  These were the trucks I found tucked away with their original couplings removed.  Secondly, I have now installed magnets for Kadee operation into the tack at all the locations where I want to uncouple on layout.

 

I am planning that most of the trucks I have converted will be used for shunting puzzle games I am developing for the boys (and myself).  The trucks have all been fitted with the large surplus stock of Kadee No.5 and these work fine on my 2nd radius curves.  I am not too worried about the slightly over hanging gear box.

 

One issue I discovered with small trucks and Kadee, is that if the wheels are very free running they tend not to want couple together if shunting very slowly.  So I have added lead weight, either old printing lead spacers or cut up lead roofing sheet, to most of the wagons.  I am working to a total weight of 50g for short wheelbase trucks http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/9456-adding-weight-to-kitbuilt-wagons/

 

However, the issue with open trucks with no load is where to add the weight so it can't be seen.  So I searched this parish for other ideas and came across a one-liner which suggested adding a small piece of foam under the axle to offer some rolling resistance http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43297-non-magnetic-wheels-and-axles/?p=574687.  This works really well, but the foam does need to be quite gentle in its springiness .  I used some soft foam from a PC mother board pacing box.  This is a good substitute for adding all the lead weight.

 

Foam axle break

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[Jaggzuk]

With regards to the magnets to operate the Kadee couplings, I have gone for Neodymium Magnets.  This decision was based on the positive comments I have read and the various videos of operation I have seen on the web.  

 

Neodymium Magnets  are very strong and one thing I did not really note on modelling forms was any comment on what strength of magnet to get.  There was general consensus that there are three main option; cubes, cylinders and flats.  I decided to buy all three types and to experiment with each one to see which worked the best.

 

Firstly Neo magnets are graded in their strength and this is the N# for each one.  My understanding is that for general use, grades will range from N30 to N52.  N42 would appear to be the normal grade.  I have read that a N52 will be 20% stronger than N42 but can be twice the cost.

 

I bought the following from First4Magents (https://www.first4magnets.com/)

 

• 3mm dia x 13mm thick N42 - 0.42kg Pull
• 3 x 3 x 3mm thick N35 - 0.28kg Pull
• 3 x 3 x 3mm thick N42 - 0.38kg Pull
• 10 x 3.5 x 2.25mm thick N45 - 0.9kg Pull

 

 

I installed them as follows:

 

Trying out the 4 magnets types I had the following results.

 

The N45 10x35x2.25 was so strong that the Kadee trip pin was pulled right down on to the magnet and the truck got stuck to it!!  That magnet was scrapped.

 

Next the 3mm cylinder.  This was very easy to install into 3mm holes in the baseboard and looks very discreet.  But being a N42 with 0.42kg pull it has quiet a strong effect on the trip pin and would tend to pull the truck towards the magnet if it is left loose running.  The coupling was also slightly pulled downwards, which is undesirable.

 

The 3mm cubes are a bit more difficult to install as you can only do one row at a time as you need to wait for the glue to set before adding the next row; otherwise the second row will jump out of place.  You must also ensure the poles are correct  - North towards one rail and South to the other.  I did not find much difference between N35 and N42, But the N42 will pull the trip pin right over towards the rail whereas the N35 is not so strong.

 

I used use superglue to fix in place and so was able to install both rows very quickly.

 

The key thing I learnt is that the magnet orientation has a notable effect on how the Kadee trip pin reacts.  With the cubes the pin is just pulled sideways whereas with the cylinders it is pulled sideways and downwards.  This I believe is to do with where the North and South poles are.  For the cubes it is on the ends (not the top) so the trip pin is less likely to be pulled down unlike the cylinder where the pole is on the top and attract the pin to it.

 

The result for me is 2 rows of 5 cubes super glued in place and probably N35s.  Black paint and ballast with hid the quite nicely  Much better than the big Kadee magnet.

 

The other issue I encountered during the installation trial on the small size of my layout is that you really do need Kadee uncoupling magnets to be on straight track and well way for curves that cause wagon over swing.  This has notably shortened the effective length of my sidings, such that I had to lengthen them to get the right number of trucks in them.  The magnets in the station area are not ideal but just about work on the curved track.  A point I will have remember on the next layout plan.

 

Sidings lengthened  - T marks where the old rail ends used to be

 

The numbers in black identify the number of trucks each siding can take, long, medium and short wheelbase

 

In conclusion the final result though is fantastic and really enjoyable shunting is now possible with no big hand from the sky.  Plus, with DCC slow running, one can experience very satisfying shunting.  A whole new chapter opens up for us.

 

Uncoupling over cube magnets

 

Uncoupling over cylinder magnets

 

Layout plan showing magnet locations

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[5BarVT]

Many thanks for the information on magnet strengths: an area where I had questions too. Also useful thoughts about the orientation of the poles (end vs top) - makes sense to me.

Paul.

[Jaggzuk]

I am sure this is not an original idea as I probably picked it up somewhere a long time ago and it just sat there in the back of my mind, but I will share it anyway.

 

I was needing to removed injection moulding lines on some old truck buffers, but using needle files would scratching them too much, so I decided to use a small bit of wet & dry paper.  But it was just a but fiddly to use.  Then the "idea" of sticking the paper to something stiffer like a bit of plastic or wood came to mind.  So with a few wooden takeaway drink stirrers on my work bench, I use for paint mixing, I tried sticking some 240 wet & dry to one, and it worked very well.

 

So I have now made a set of files with different grades of paper.  Wet & dry come typically comes in A4 size so this will mean I have a supply of cheep files for a very long time!

 

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

Can you actually couple to that set of wagons in the near siding (1/1/3)? The magnet location looks like the couplers will always be in the pushed-over position.

[Jaggzuk]

If it is three trucks, yes I can Zomboid, just.  But as seen in the photo with 2 trucks and the guards van, no I can't as the guards van is longer than the trucks.  So I will have to remember that when shunting about.  Might see what can be done at the buffer end to get another 1/2 inch of track.

 

Obviously when I was planning the layout I did not take in to account Kadee as a coupling operation.  So that is one for the memory bank.

[BR60103]

In operating Lostock Junction's Windermere station, we have Kadee magnets in the platforms to uncouple locos. Some of them are the right distance from the buffer stops that we leave a coach behind.

Magnets in sidings should be far enough beyond the frog that the wagons do not foul the other track.