Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

With regards to sheep coming from the Highlands to Norfolk, I'm not so sure that they would... The HR traffic for sheep was mainly internal, the sheep moving from winter to summer grazing and vice-versa (the return journey being free!). I guess some would have moved externally, but I'm guessing it wouldn't have been many.

 

Although it would give you a good excuse to run a couple of HR sheep wagons (Yes they had sheep wagons and cattle wagons, the sheep wagons being double decked to get more in per wagon. Early wagons by Jones and Drummond: http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/page_5_wagons.html   Later Drummond ones:http://www.invertrain.com/detail.php?item=3979 )

 

Andy G

 

Those sheep wagons are certainly interesting and would be a fun subject for a model.  One of the Australian railways had some that were just about direct copies of those.  Did any of the English railways use sheep wagons?  I've only ever seen photos of Scottish ones.

 

!9th Century NSWGR sheep wagon.

 

 

The sheep traffic is assumed to be local.  Indeed, there will doubtless be local cattle traffic.  The Scottish cattle traffic is a special case. 

 

I like that NSW sheep wagon and it is not far from the HR example Andy G links to. 

 

A WNR version would be a nice challenge!

[TheQ]

This article probably is a good guideline as to the percentages of wagons you should have...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107713-castle-aching/page-320

[Compound2632]

This article probably is a good guideline as to the percentages of wagons you should have...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107713-castle-aching/page-320

 

Wrong link. But before you give the correct link, think: is the article you have in mind relevant to a rural location c. 1905? This is before pooling, so the local company's/companies' wagons will predominate. The proportion of covered goods wagons (vans to later generations) to opens was much lower than later - less than 2% on the Midland Railway in 1894, for example, rising to around 7% by 1902. The number of cattle wagons needed on the layout will be a function of the supposed local traffic rather than the proportion of such vehicles in the company's stock. Likewise, special wagons of any sort will only appear if there is some particular traffic requirement. For example, A Midland Railway D312 tram engine wagon, of which only two existed, could plausibly turn up at Castle Aching laden with a Kitson's steam tram engine for the Atchingham Tramway (or whatever it was) - either new or going to/from Leeds for repair. Mention of such foreign wagons reminds me that there will inevitably be a Midland D299 5-plank open...

[Andy Hayter]

 Mention of such foreign wagons reminds me that there will  ​probably inevitably be a Midland D299 5-plank open...

 

 

Sorry to be a bit controversial on this one point, but having scoured "The LB&SCR: the Bennett Collection" to determine the wagon markings for local wagons, I failed to successfully identify a single foreign wagon, let alone a D299.  Admittedly pictures of or with wagons are scarce but I think it exemplifies the point that at this time on rural, non-industrialised lines foreign wagons were more unlikely than the survey, to which I think we were supposed to be directed, might suggest.  Post Great War, Bristol IIRC with 50%+ foreign wagons.

[Northroader]

Don’t forget that any wagons about the place would include a few of some kind of private owners wagons for coal traffic.

[Compound2632]

Sorry to be a bit controversial on this one point, but having scoured "The LB&SCR: the Bennett Collection" to determine the wagon markings for local wagons, I failed to successfully identify a single foreign wagon, let alone a D299.  Admittedly pictures of or with wagons are scarce but I think it exemplifies the point that at this time on rural, non-industrialised lines foreign wagons were more unlikely than the survey, to which I think we were supposed to be directed, might suggest.  Post Great War, Bristol IIRC with 50%+ foreign wagons.

 

I think you're thinking of this data, yes, it's interesting that even post-pooling, about half the wagons belong to the two local companies - Great Western (33%) and Midland (17%), with a further 12% from the LNWR, with whom the Great Western were hand-in-glove for traffic north via the Severn Tunnel. The only other significant numbers are from the North Eastern (6%) and Great Northern (5%), with the other large companies at around 3%. Question: this survey was reported at the GWR Lecture & Debating Society. It says "all depots, sidings, etc. at Bristol" - does that cover both companies' facilities, or just Great Western? 

 

What you say about Brighton photos is interesting - it was a line with which the Midland had little to do - no through carriages in the 1903 TT as far as I can see. What is the date range of the Bennett Collection?

 

Don’t forget that any wagons about the place would include a few of some kind of private owners wagons for coal traffic.

 

He's on the case. Incidentally, that Bristol 1920 survey doesn't include PO wagons.

[Nick Holliday]

Sorry to be a bit controversial on this one point, but having scoured "The LB&SCR: the Bennett Collection" to determine the wagon markings for local wagons, I failed to successfully identify a single foreign wagon, let alone a D299.  Admittedly pictures of or with wagons are scarce but I think it exemplifies the point that at this time on rural, non-industrialised lines foreign wagons were more unlikely than the survey, to which I think we were supposed to be directed, might suggest.  Post Great War, Bristol IIRC with 50%+ foreign wagons.

Many years ago Jonathan Abson of the Brighton Circle was able to analyse wagon returns from Sheffield Park for a period of a month or so around the end of the nineteenth century. The results are very interesting. Out of 702 wagons noted, 90% (634) were Brighton owned, with 25 Private Traders wagons. Next come 18 Midland wagons (Len Tavender's book gives wagon numbers for all coal carrying ones for Compound to drool over) then 10 LNWR and 6 GNR. Surprisingly SECR only sent 3 in that period, the LSWR and GWR none, but 2 NER and GCR wagons turned up, and just(!) one NSR coal wagon, and a solitary GER wagon, which is also slightly odd, given the relative proximity of the GER and the number of their wagons that seem to turn up in photos.

This obviously was only a snapshot and some of the oddities might never have been repeated, but the general proportions probably would hold good for a country station.

[Compound2632]

Next come 18 Midland wagons (Len Tavender's book gives wagon numbers for all coal carrying ones for Compound to drool over).

 

Slavering in anticipation. Never mind the book, someone just send me a list of numbers!

[Nearholmer]

Nick

 

Back to the self-sufficiency point I made before, or, put another way, what did the Eastern Counties (or Hants, Wilts and Dorset) have that Sussex might want?

 

And, I think the answer would be ‘precious little’. In fact, I can’t think of anything, so I’d love to know what that GER wagon contained. Surely not ten tons of Colman’s mustard.

 

Kevin

[Andy Hayter]

I think you're thinking of this data, yes, it's interesting that even post-pooling, about half the wagons belong to the two local companies - Great Western (33%) and Midland (17%), with a further 12% from the LNWR, with whom the Great Western were hand-in-glove for traffic north via the Severn Tunnel. The only other significant numbers are from the North Eastern (6%) and Great Northern (5%), with the other large companies at around 3%. Question: this survey was reported at the GWR Lecture & Debating Society. It says "all depots, sidings, etc. at Bristol" - does that cover both companies' facilities, or just Great Western? 

 

What you say about Brighton photos is interesting - it was a line with which the Midland had little to do - no through carriages in the 1903 TT as far as I can see. What is the date range of the Bennett Collection?

 

 

He's on the case. Incidentally, that Bristol 1920 survey doesn't include PO wagons.

 

 

I think that is the data.

 

the date range of the Bennett Collection is a bit flexible.  Some pictures are clearly datable, others less so but the vast majority are 1900 - 1912.

 

Re PO wagons, yes they are in a few of the shots, but they all seem to be local to LB&SCR - no collieries just merchants.  Hence I included them as local and not foreign.  A real eye opener.

 

I am beginning to think that the Bristol data is something of an "outlier" and does not represent railways as they were except perhaps in the biggest of cities at the time.  It set sufficient rabbits running with me, that I asked the French Railway Society what the state of play was with French pre-nationalised railways.  Best answer was perhaps 15% of wagons up to 1937 were foreign (as in French but not on home rails)*.  Perhaps that is a good answer for the UK as well as an overall number - less in some backwaters and a bit more elsewhere.

 

* which was a happy answer as I only have a few non-PLM wagons.

[wagonman]

The days when fortunes could be made from Wool are long gone. These days the wool is hardly worth the price of shearing. However sheep farming usually involves the disposal of a lot of ram lambs which just eat grass the ewes could eat. One ram is sufficient to service a good number of ewes. So I imagine a lot of Monks were eating Lamb fairly regularly and once the monasteries were disbanded the meat was probably sold. Mind you the poor probably didn't have roast lamb. Mutton Stew made with scrag end is about right .

 

Don 

 

 

I know all this is a bit before the Castle Aching time slot, but medieval wool farmers wouldn't eat their male lambs and forego all that lovely wool. They just castrated them. Check references to 'wethers' ...

[wagonman]

Slavering in anticipation. Never mind the book, someone just send me a list of numbers!

 

 

The MR numbers quoted were:

 

21977

22450

37983

48474

59175

65422

66730

75399

75816

79300

91617

and a coke wagon 55109  – presumably a D342

[corneliuslundie]

One factor which varied from company to company was acquisition of loco coal. Some companies used their own wagons and others used coal factors or bought direct from collieries.

The LSWR for example (if i remember correctly) always used a coal factor. the bishop's Castle railway actually used a local coal merchant in Shrewsbury some of the time (Breeze). The GWR on the other hand used its own wagons (and sometimes owned collieries for the purpose).

And that GER wagon could have been delivering farm machinery from Ransomes.

But as has been said, each line had its specific traffic. Often a surprising amount of timber in rural areas - the early Rhymney Railway fleet had a lot of timber wagons, but presumably once all the trees had been cut don they were not needed.

Jonathan 

PS I thought it was a Midland three plank one needed on every layout.

[wagonman]

One factor which varied from company to company was acquisition of loco coal. Some companies used their own wagons and others used coal factors or bought direct from collieries.

The LSWR for example (if i remember correctly) always used a coal factor. the bishop's Castle railway actually used a local coal merchant in Shrewsbury some of the time (Breeze). The GWR on the other hand used its own wagons (and sometimes owned collieries for the purpose).

And that GER wagon could have been delivering farm machinery from Ransomes.

But as has been said, each line had its specific traffic. Often a surprising amount of timber in rural areas - the early Rhymney Railway fleet had a lot of timber wagons, but presumably once all the trees had been cut don they were not needed.

Jonathan 

PS I thought it was a Midland three plank one needed on every layout.

 

 

 

The LSWR obtained its loco coal from Stephenson Clarke, a huge coal factor. The MSWJR on the other hand got its from J & W Stone of North Blaina, which company I think was later taken over by John Lancaster. There were usually a few Stone wagons to be seen at MSW loco sheds.

 

So who supplied the WNR?

Edited February 17, 2018 by wagonman

[Nearholmer]

“And that GER wagon could have been delivering farm machinery from Ransomes”

 

Plausible, although there was a perfectly good iron works at Lewes (The Phoenix) that made most of that sort of thing.

 

Maybe it was something for the adjacent sawmill, which is known to have bought from such distant iron works as Howard’s of Bedford. Or a fancy greenhouse or the like for Sheffield Park itself.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

The MR numbers quoted were:

 

21977

22450

37983

48474

59175

65422

66730

75399

75816

79300

91617

and a coke wagon 55109  – presumably a D342

 

Interesting coke wagon number. The other low number on record is 59472, from the first lot of 1,000 built in 1889. Other coke wagons known were 90050 and 100410. My impression is that wagons built as new rather than replacements - which seems to cover D342 coke and D351 5-plank end door wagons as well as most 'specials' - got the next available new number, possibly in continuous runs or blocks, so these higher numbers are from later lots. But this is very speculative. 

 

I'll ad these extra eleven presumed D299 numbers to the sheet of solebar number plates I'm drawing up!

 

PS I thought it was a Midland three plank one needed on every layout.

 

No, there were only around 20,000 of those c. 1902, compared to 60,000 of the D299 five plank wagons.

[Nearholmer]

And, the LBSCR used S&C as their coal factor too, I think, and likewise SR.

[Compound2632]

I am beginning to think that the Bristol data is something of an "outlier" and does not represent railways as they were except perhaps in the biggest of cities at the time.  It set sufficient rabbits running with me, that I asked the French Railway Society what the state of play was with French pre-nationalised railways.  Best answer was perhaps 15% of wagons up to 1937 were foreign (as in French but not on home rails). 

 

Did the French railways pool their wagons? I keep coming back to the point that pooling makes an enormous difference to the contents of a goods yard pre and post-Great War. Compare this late-19th century view of Birmingham Central with one taken on the eve of grouping. NB. sheets and ropes were also pooled by then, so that's not necessarily a NER wagon under that NE sheet.

[Northroader]

Routier du Nord tells me “No French goods siding is compleet wizzout ze EST “U” tombereau, un “five plankair” as you Engleesh say”

[Compound2632]

Routier du Nord tells me “No French goods siding is compleet wizzout ze EST “U” tombereau, un “five plankair” as you Engleesh say”0DD74DD6-E899-406D-A4AB-EC5D5CFB877D.jpeg

 

Etaient-ils vraiment nombreux? Combien de dizaines de milliers?

[Northroader]

Being as it was you, I just couldn’t resist the temptation. Sorry, it doesn’t hit such high numbers, I just thought I’d do a picture of something I had done which might just be plausible. Really I think a PLM wagon might be a likely candidate, but then again the French seemed to like covered wagons more than us.

[Andy Hayter]

Did the French railways pool their wagons? I keep coming back to the point that pooling makes an enormous difference to the contents of a goods yard pre and post-Great War. Compare this late-19th century view of Birmingham Central with one taken on the eve of grouping. NB. sheets and ropes were also pooled by then, so that's not necessarily a NER wagon under that NE sheet.

 

Not in the sense that we understand it.  Naturally there was a period during 1914 to around 1920 when if it fitted the loading gauge it would be used; But not proper pooling.  

And if only 15% were transferring from one system to another perhaps the need was not there.  France was from a very early time split into what we would see in the UK as grouping - around 1855 - 1865.  Thenceforth a minimum number of main carriers operated the primary railway system - Est (East) - later split Est and Alsace Lorraine due to the Franco Prussian war of 1870/1 - Nord (North), Ouest (West - replaced in 1908 by the state - Etat - following bankruptcy); Paris-Orleans (South West to the Spanish border despite its name); Midi (Pyrenees)  [These last two amalgamated in 1933 under a construct of combined operation but separated accounts]. and PLM (Paris Lyon Mediterranean). 

 

In addition however was a vast secondary network of 22,000km lines run by a myriad of companies and local government organisations.  Here there was no interchangeability and frequently no coordinated timetabling - sometimes even within networks.   It was said that you could travel from Paris to the Med on this/these secondary system(s) - some departements [counties for want of a better description] had two levels of secondary system.  Doing such a journey would not however have required a stop watch to monitor your performance - a calendar might have been more appropriate.  

 

Despite this apparent lack of cooperation/coordination, there were central organisations that did provide standardised designs.  OCEM provided standard designs for wagons (first builds 1919) and later coaches and many of the companies built or had built stock to these standards.  

 

EDIT: The Paris Orleans did not get to the Spanish border until the amalgamation with the Midi.  Until then its main southern terminus was Bordeaux 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Andy Hayter

[Annie]

The sheep traffic is assumed to be local.  Indeed, there will doubtless be local cattle traffic.  The Scottish cattle traffic is a special case. 

 

I like that NSW sheep wagon and it is not far from the HR example Andy G links to. 

 

A WNR version would be a nice challenge!

Many early Australian goods wagons and coaches are very plainly British designs, - sometimes sourced from British makers, - or else heavily influenced by British designs.  Much of this was due to engineering staff having been formerly employed by various railways in Britain.  Quite often it's almost impossible to tell if a photo of an early Australian wagon is British or not if there's nothing to reference it to its location.  I'll most probably use that photo to create a simplified coarse scale model for 'Foxwater' which being an imaginary 'what if' little railway might have had one built to their own order.

[Hroth]

Routier du Nord tells me “No French goods siding is compleet wizzout ze EST “U” tombereau, un “five plankair” as you Engleesh say”0DD74DD6-E899-406D-A4AB-EC5D5CFB877D.jpeg

I hope those casks are all empties!

[uax6]

The sheep traffic is assumed to be local.  Indeed, there will doubtless be local cattle traffic.  The Scottish cattle traffic is a special case. 

 

I like that NSW sheep wagon and it is not far from the HR example Andy G links to. 

 

A WNR version would be a nice challenge!

Well the Jones and early Drummond kit is available from Lochgorm, and is not an unreasonable price. And I would think that if you got the Jones version, that you could plausible run one on CA, although in reality you would probably be better to use a 5 planker with raves added, as that was a cheap way of achieving the same thing: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2091/entry-19668-cr-diagram-24-wagon-and-some-sheep-part-2/

 

Andy G