Castle Aching

[Londontram]

I always thought the war of the worlds Thunderchild was based on the 1902 HMS King Edward the VII class of pre dreadnought battle ships.

[Caley Jim]

It seems to me counterintuitive for there to be an Austrian Navy, Austria being, like Switzerland, a landlocked country! :-?

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

... the ramming vessels morphed into 'torpedo rams', which could break booms but also fire the new Whitehead torpedoes and possibly avoid the need to ram ships at all. The only such vessel in the RN was HMS Polyphemus, on which the fictional Thunderchild was based, which was effective against the Martian tripods in H G Wells 'The War of the Worlds'..

 

 

I always thought the war of the worlds Thunderchild was based on the 1902 HMS King Edward the VII class of pre dreadnought battle ships.

 

 

Yes, Wells describes Thunderchild as a "torpedo ram", IIRC.  The illustration for the Geoff Wayne album suggests a pre-Dreadnought.

[drmditch]

I always thought the war of the worlds Thunderchild was based on the 1902 HMS King Edward the VII class of pre dreadnought battle ships.

 

Reasonably sure that Wells actually calls the ship a 'torpedo ram'. I have a collected edition downstairs, but it's on a high shelf and I'm not supposed to do much stretching at the moment!

 

At least we've found our way back to the Edwardian era. Do you suppose that the King Emperor would have minded that the Third Battle Squadron, made up of KEVII class ships were known as 'the wobbly eight'? Actually I don't think that 'Tum-tum' would have liked that all.

 

Now that we're back in period I must remember to look up armour plate production at Consett and Hartlepool. The NER certainly had armour plate wagons.

[Nearholmer]

It’s a pity that Helgoland and Zanzibar were swapped, because it must have been a lot easier to get to somewhere warm and exotic when you could catch an overnight ferry from Hull.

[drmditch]

It seems to me counterintuitive for there to be an Austrian Navy, Austria being, like Switzerland, a landlocked country! :-?

 

Jim

 

You are probably thinking of the post-1919 Austria. In 1914 the Kaiserlich und Koniglich Kreigsmarine was the fourth largest great power navy (if I remember correctly.) Based largely on the Adriatic ports of what was then a large middle European empire, it also had a sizeable Danube flotilla. This actually fired the first shots of WW1 In the bombardment of Belgrade. KuK submarines were a nuisance in the Mediterranean later in the war.

 

There is an excellent series of novels by John Biggins, of which the first is 'Sailor of Austria'. I've lost my copies and must try and replace them.

 

In 1919 the treaty of St Germain, by an obvious bit of 'cut and pasting' from the treaty of Versailles, specifically forbade the now landlocked Austria from having any submarines!

Edited January 16, 2019 by drmditch

[Donw]

Was that river rerouting at about the same time as the Severn decided to go south instead of to the Wirral?

Howzat for linking two off piste subtopics in one post?

 

 

 

I rather doubt it. The diversion of the Severn occurred when the ice sheet was blocking the path to the Dee and a lake built up which then brock through the limestone ridge and created the Ironbridge gorge at thet time one would assume the ice sheet would have been inhibiting any flow north from the Rhine. In fact things I have read seem to indicate that the Rhine Shelt and Thames alll contributed to a lake in the southern area of Doggerland until it overflowed and broke throught to run south possible the area of the Dover cliffs being the area of the breakthrough.

 

Don

[corneliuslundie]

The drier side is a relative matter. When we moved from university in Swansea to live in Cambridge the average precipitation fell to about 24 inches a year from roughly double that.

But how do we get back to discussing pre-grouping model railways; that is the question? Assuming that the parishioners wish to of course.

Jonathan

[martinT]

I was perhaps over-simplifying, though the GWR ran goods services over the line, there weren't any GWR passenger services, unlike the main line to Woodside.

The passenger service from Chester to Manchester is interesting - it's listed in the GW timetable, eg pp244/245 of the summer 1936 TT, & there's no indication that it was a LMSR service. However there's plenty of evidence that the use of GW loomotives on these trains was commonplace. Although V Webster, making his first trip to Manchester in 1927 (see his Diaries reproduced in BRJ from issue 45 onwards), was surprised to find a Bulldog at Exchange I don't think it was an unusual event, in fact up until 1939 at least I think GW locos reached Manchester daily.

 

The last couple of pages of K Beck's 'The GW North of Wolverhampton' describe the services between Chester & Manchester. The book includes

photos of brand-new Earl 3212 (still named E of Eldon) & Mogul 6332 at Exchange on Chester-bound trains - both taken in May 1937. The book

also has photos of Saint 2943 (Hampton Court) & Aberdare 2662 passing Frodsham (south of Warrington) on Chester-bound passenger & goods

trains in July 1939. (Both these photos have been reproduced elsewhere  - GW Album(2) I think). There is also a pre-WW1 photo (from Lens of

Sutton) of Stella 2-4-0 3204 outside Exchange station with, slightly oddly, a smartly-dressed woman & 3 children posed in front of it

standing in the 6ft! This appears in 'The GW at its Zenith' & 'Locomotives Illustrated 92' & possibly elsewhere.

 

In his article 'A Northern Observer pt2' (GWRJ 23) Mr Shuttleworth recounts the story of the driver of Bulldog 3442 (Bullfinch) refusing assistance (from the LMSR of course) when taking a Holyhead train of 10 bogies out of Manchester!

 

Between them Beck & Shuttleworth report that 2-4-0s (various classes), Bulldogs, Cities, Flowers, Earls, Moguls, Aberdares, Saints, & Halls would have worked these trains over the years.

 

These are a couple of interesting points from these photos. The 3 taken at Exchange shew the locos with full tenders which suggest that

they were coaled at Patricroft (?) when being turned. This seems surprising - I would have thought that the 3500gall tenders of 3212 &

6332 would have held enough for the round trip from Chester, although it might have different for the Stella's driver with a 2000gall

tender. The other point is that in all cases the passenger stock is LMSR - there's no sign of chocolate & cream relieving the drabness of

Manchester Exchange. This makes the use of GW locos difficult to explain but I think it was a feature of the manner in which the

services over the joint lines were organised. Many years ago I attended a talk about these services given at the NW Group of the

GWSoc - the recollection is a bit hazy because it was circa 1980 but I seem to remember that the use of GW locos to Manchester was primarily a means of balancing the GW/LMS engine mileage over the Birkenhead Joint Lines - so perhaps we have accountants to thank!

 

I'm sorry to have rambled on but as I lived in Cheshire for 15 years until 1984 I have an interest in this overlooked corner of the GW empire. Beck ends his book by pointing out that it was Warrington - not Birkenhead - that was the furthest point on the GWR 'North of Wolverhampton'!

 

Martin

[phil_sutters]

Reasonably sure that Wells actually calls the ship a 'torpedo ram'. I have a collected edition downstairs, but it's on a high shelf and I'm not supposed to do much stretching at the moment!

 

At least we've found our way back to the Edwardian era. Do you suppose that the King Emperor would have minded that the Third Battle Squadron, made up of KEVII class ships were known as 'the wobbly eight'? Actually I don't think that 'Tum-tum' would have liked that all.

 

Now that we're back in period I must remember to look up armour plate production at Consett and Hartlepool. The NER certainly had armour plate wagons.

Battleships and submarines did someone say - I have photos for those! Although I expect someone will identify the 'battleships' as cruisers or battle-cruisers. The sub. ended up as an Italian Navy patrol boat.

Edited January 16, 2019 by phil_sutters

[Martin S-C]

I believe the Austro-Hungarian empire was the fourth great power to commence construction of a dreadnought after Britain, the USA and Germany. France was very late into the naval arms race, being thetenth nation to have them under construction. I think the actual third state to have a dreadnought class vessel under construction was, incredibly enough, Brazil. The south American nations of Brazil, Chile and Argentina had their own (very stupid) mini-arms race.

From Wikipedia:

"Brazil was the third country to have a dreadnought under construction, behind the United Kingdom, with Dreadnought and the Bellerophon class, and the United States, with the South Carolina class. This meant that Brazil was in line to have a dreadnought before many of the world's perceived powers, like France, the German Empire, the Russian Empire, and the Empire of Japan.As dreadnoughts were quickly equated with international status, somewhat similar to nuclear weapons today—that is, regardless of a state's need for such equipment, simply ordering and possessing a dreadnought increased the owner's prestige—the order caused a stir in international relations."

[Compound2632]

It seems to me counterintuitive for there to be an Austrian Navy, Austria being, like Switzerland, a landlocked country! :-?

 

Jim

 

You're forgetting the seacoast of Bohemia in The Winter's Tale. Every 16th century grammar school boy knew that meant the Adriatic coast. 

[Northroader]

It seems to me counterintuitive for there to be an Austrian Navy, Austria being, like Switzerland, a landlocked country! :-?

Jim

Here’s an old map of the pre 1918 Austro Hungarian Empire. Sorry it’s in German, but you’ll see the modern countries superimposed, except that Czechoslovakia is now in two bits. The darker shading is Austria, the lighter shading Hungary, with a few subservient kingdoms thrown in. You’ll see that a good bit of the Adriatic Coast south from Trieste was Austrian territory.

I’m sure you’re a keen fan of the “Sound of Music” film, remember the head of the family in that was a guy called Von Trapp. He did exist in real life, having a distinguished career in the Austrian Navy, being an Austrian Uboat captain in the Adriatic, generally sinking Italian shipping. WW2 the Germans wanted him to pick up where he left off.

[attachment]

Edited January 16, 2019 by Northroader

[Nearholmer]

Yes, and while it remained a fairly stable empire, A-H was a significant ‘player’ in what counted as modern technologies at the time, electrical engineering being a prime case, partly because it had a very strong tradition in mathematics.

 

All pretty much forgotten now ...... such things seem fragile in the decay of empires.

[Edwardian]

You are probably thinking of the post-1919 Austria. In 1914 the Kaiserlich und Koniglich Kreigsmarine was the fourth largest great power navy (if I remember correctly.) Based largely on the Adriatic ports of what was then a large middle European empire, it also had a sizeable Danube flotilla. This actually fired the first shots of WW1 In the bombardment of Belgrade. KuK submarines were a nuisance in the Mediterranean later in the war.

 

There is an excellent series of novels by John Biggins, of which the first is 'Sailor of Austria'. I've lost my copies and must try and replace them.

 

In 1919 the treaty of St Germain, by an obvious bit of 'cut and pasting' from the treaty of Versailles, specifically forbade the now landlocked Austria from having any submarines!

 

Indeed, wasn't Von Trapp an Austrian WWI U-boat Ace?

Here’s an old map of the pre 1918 Austro Hungarian Empire. Sorry it’s in German, but you’ll see the modern countries superimposed, except that Czechoslovakia is now in two bits. The darker shading is Austria, the lighter shading Hungary, with a few subservient kingdoms thrown in. You’ll see that a good bit of the Adriatic Coast south from Trieste was Austrian territory.

I’m sure you’re a keen fan of the “Sound of Music” film, remember the head of the family in that was a guy called Von Trapp. He did exist in real life, having a distinguished career in the Austrian Navy, being an Austrian Uboat captain in the Adriatic, generally sinking Italian shipping. WW2 the Germans wanted him to pick up where he left off.

DC4E5178-636C-405A-88D5-CA804EC175F9.jpeg[attachment]

 

Sorry, snap!

[DonB]

I believe the Austro-Hungarian empire was the fourth great power to commence construction of a dreadnought after Britain, the USA and Germany. France was very late into the naval arms race, being thetenth nation to have them under construction. I think the actual third state to have a dreadnought class vessel under construction was, incredibly enough, Brazil. The south American nations of Brazil, Chile and Argentina had their own (very stupid) mini-arms race.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"Brazil was the third country to have a dreadnought under construction, behind the United Kingdom, with Dreadnought and the Bellerophon class, and the United States, with the South Carolina class. This meant that Brazil was in line to have a dreadnought before many of the world's perceived powers, like France, the German Empire, the Russian Empire, and the Empire of Japan.As dreadnoughts were quickly equated with international status, somewhat similar to nuclear weapons today—that is, regardless of a state's need for such equipment, simply ordering and possessing a dreadnought increased the owner's prestige—the order caused a stir in international relations."

 

 Typical of Wiki..to clear up my confusion...and the ambiguity.... was the "Stir" in International relations due to the Order for the ships being placed .... or the Order in which the nations joined in the warmongering fun ?

 

Quote..."You're forgetting the seacoast of Bohemia in The Winter's Tale. Every 16th century grammar school boy knew that meant the Adriatic coast. "

 

As a 20th century Grammar school boy post WW2 , I found the need to remember dates caused a total mental block in History lessons. 

[Martin S-C]

such things seem fragile in the decay of empires.

Of Austro-Hungary's four dreadnoughts, two were sunk. The Szent Istvan during an operation to breach the Otranto barrage on 10 June 1918 by a tiny MAS Italian torpedoboat costing a few thousand Lire:

 

 

Viribis Unitis was sunk at her moorings in Pola on 1st November 1918 by an Italian mine during confusion over handing over the Austrian fleet to the new state of Slovenes Croats and Serbs.

 

I feel a sense of deep tragedy and waste over how much money and effort was poured into battleship fleets in the first 20 years of the last century. most of which was militarily almost useless, not even as a deterrent as it turned out.

[Martin S-C]

 Typical of Wiki..to clear up my confusion...and the ambiguity.... was the "Stir" in International relations due to the Order for the ships being placed .... or the Order in which the nations joined in the warmongering fun ?

As usual Wiki does report things in full and fairly accurately but in a section I didn't quote. Dreadnoughts prior to WWI were akin to having nuclear weapons today in terms of the political clout they conferred on a nation, hence why Brazil, having one under construction, was so surprising and caused ramifications in diplomatic and alliance circles. If nation X with no dreadnoughts formed an alliance with Brazil who had one then that gave nation X that much more political presence. It was all nonesense of course but that's they way it was.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

Were Dreadnoughts actually any good as war-fighting weapons, as opposed to things to be flaunted in an attempt to intimidate?

Edited January 16, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

Not really, no. They carried about 8 to 12 super heavy artillery pieces at the speed of a modest train but were insanely expensive with crews of around 1500 to 2000 sailors and once an opponent had them they effectively cancelled each other out. They were so slow and expensive to build that if a nation owned a few, the loss of just one or two could seriously affect the balance of power (as it was then calculated) so almost no-one was prepared to risk them in battle. The mine, torpedo and submarine made their use off enemy coasts extremely risky and their use as shore bombardment weapons wasn't effective (in the same way that mass bombing wasn't effective 35 years later).

Their construction did push technology onwards a little (mettalurgy principally, used later in engineering) but other weapons that became effective in war later such as aircraft, radar and so on were not driven forwards by the naval arms race. Ther ewas some advance in mechanical computing and optics driven by their need for rangefinding and accurate fire at 10+ miles but really they were hideously expensive white elephants.

Having said all that I still think its a great pity that not one British dreadnought was saved as a museum piece. I think Dreadnought herself should have been, or perhaps Tiger or Lion in the mid 30s or Warspite after 1945.

[Edwardian]

Railways!

 

I have just made an impulse purchase, which would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago, and which leaves me feeling daring, bloody lucky, and obscurely guilty!

 

Idly browsing Bay of Fleas, I saw something just listed today. Instantly recognisable, test run, cosmetically good and in the condition I wanted, it had a 'Buy it Now' price of £79.50.  I'm afraid I did not hesitate, and bought it as quickly as digging out my account login details would allow.

 

I really am going to have to make Barnstaple Town my next project!!!

 

Also the perfect CA loco of course! 

 

I seek absolution from the Parish for my impetuous and willful extravagance ...

 

Pictures from the Rails of Sheffield Bay of Fleas listing.

 

 

[Dana Ashdown]

"I seek absolution from the Parish for my impetuous and willful extravagance ..."

 

You are forgiven my son. Now say three Hail Great Westerns and two Great Easterns.

[Edwardian]

It'll need some gentle titivating, and brake rodding, sand pipes, couplings, vac pipes, and lamp irons, but, on the whole, I'm ...          

Edited January 16, 2019 by Edwardian

[corneliuslundie]

A superb find, and well worth the money, I feel. Ideal for CA - and of course for many other parts of the country at that time so you are lucky someone else didn't see it first.

Jonathan

[Annie]

My word that was a lucky find James, - well done!