Castle Aching

[Martin S-C]

James, did you get my PM? I fear it may have got lost in all the others.

[Martin S-C]

11 minutes ago, Hroth said:

And the only RTR Dean locos are Oxfords recent (and slightly iffy) Dean Goods and, the venerable Triang/Hornby Achilles of which another release is due soon!

 

With the forthcoming Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches, perhaps some manufacturer should get a grip and produce a Dean loco to haul them.  Seeing as there's been lots of talk about Precedents and T26s, perhaps another 2-4-0 should be added to the list of Desirables, I give you the GWR Class 3206, the Barnum!!!

 

Sooooooo 19th Century!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_3206_Class

 

 

 

 

There is the old Lord of the Isles (or is that the Achilles that you have referred to?). There's also the City class and the old Hornby 4-4-0 County class but these are hardly good examples of workaday 19th century GW locomotives.

I see a problem possibly developing here with the increase in pre-grouping interest. The gWR falls into a crack that as far as I can determine, hasn't been spotte dby anyone. Its because the GWR ran right through from 1838 to 1947 without a name change. The pre-grouping RTR scene has focussed on companies that ceased to exist in 1923 and, for some odd reason, mostly those south of the Thames. I have a horrible feeling that since we have a shedload of post 1923 GWR engine models the manufacturers think we don't need any pre-1923 ones.

However a goods 0-6-0 (outside cranks, curved frames?), a small tank loco (0-6-0ST? 517 class? Metro?) and a small passenger engine, perhaps a 2-4-0 to ring the changes vs the 4-4-0s, such as the beautiful Barnum pictured above, all from the 1890s would be wonderful to fill that crack and bring pre-grouping GW modellers into line with those who model the LBSCR or SECR.

[Compound2632]

One can get the impression that Great Western engines made a great turn-of-the-century leap from the truly antiquated to the ultra-modern but there was a period around the early 90s when Swindon produced some really very normal-looking locomotives:

 

 

Compare:

 

 

(Apologies for the Westinghouse pump.)

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Compound2632

[Martin S-C]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

(Apologies for the Westinghouse pump.)

You are forgiven; it is a Westinghouse pump fitted on a pre-1923 design after all.

I would have thought that no company's designers worked in isolation and that designs would largely mirror what most other companies were producing, within the artistic preferences of certain CEs at least, and so within at least 5 years features would be common to a large extent. I should think only the very financially weak or parsimonious companies might adhere to outdated designs.

 

Did terrain or traffic have a significant effect? Would a company whose rails negotiated hilly regions differ from those in the flatter areas? Did iron ore or coal traffics give rise to leaps forward?

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

I would have thought that no company's designers worked in isolation and that designs would largely mirror what most other companies were producing, within the artistic preferences of certain CEs at least.

 

The more one looks into the overlapping careers of 19th century locomotive engineers, the more the saying "kick one and they all limp" comes to mind.

 

I cheated, given the postable photos I had. That 1282 Class engine was built some 15 years before the 3232 Class engine.

[Hroth]

41 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

There is the old Lord of the Isles (or is that the Achilles that you have referred to?). There's also the City class and the old Hornby 4-4-0 County class but these are hardly good examples of workaday 19th century GW locomotives.

The City and the County 4-4-0 are both Churchward classes, the Cities of 1902 are barely "Victorian", being a reboilered development of the Dean(/Churchward) Abtara locos.  The Counties are effectively cut down Saints to comply with restrictions on the Hereford to Shrewsbury LNWR line over which the GWR had running powers, but on which they were expressly forbidden to use 4-6-0 locomotives.

 

Achilles is the class name of the Dean 4-2-2 singles of which LotI was a member.  Hornby are producing a model of Achilles which is a bit (but not much) modernised from the Triang original,,,

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/gwr-class-3031-dean-single-4-2-2-achilles-era-2.html

 

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

I give you the GWR Class 3206, the Barnum!!!

I've liked those ever since reading a series of articles in the RM about 1966 on building one and seeing one at Pendon in about 1968. Roye England seemed very surprised that a spotty 12-year-old schoolboy knew what it was...

[Hroth]

19 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I've liked those ever since reading a series of articles in the RM about 1966 on building one and seeing one at Pendon in about 1968. Roye England seemed very surprised that a spotty 12-year-old schoolboy knew what it was...

 

I was just looking at the Barnum and realised that everything above the running board/footplate was similar to the Dean Goods. 

 

Perhaps Oxford could have a stab at it? (or perhaps not!)  Or Hornby dig out their old Dean Goods tools, unless those got trashed too, remembering that scene on the Hornby TV programme when SK found that the only old tooling left was the tunnel model.....

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Hroth
You guessed it, spelin.

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

One can get the impression that Great Western engines made a great turn-of-the-century leap from the truly antiquated to the ultra-modern but there was a period around the early 90s when Swindon produced some really very normal-looking locomotives:

 

 

Compare:

 

 

(Apologies for the Westinghouse pump.)

 

 

 

'Normal' maybe, but not staggeringly modern. 1305 was built by Dubbs in 1876 and S&DJR no. 19, later 15 & 15A, was built by Vulcan in 1866 - very similar to 1305 but with 5ft driving wheels and a more antiquated tender.

[Martin S-C]

James, are you aware of Roger Farnworth's blog? I know his work through many articles he's written on the Forest of Dean but his explorations range far and wide.

https://rogerfarnworth.com/2018/09/24/kings-lynn-docks-branch-part-2/

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

And the only RTR Dean locos are Oxfords recent (and slightly iffy) Dean Goods and, the venerable Triang/Hornby Achilles of which another release is due soon!

 

I forgot, there IS another, the Hornby impression of the Class 2721 Pannier Tank.  Thats a Dean effort too!  They were originally saddle tanks but acquired the panniers after being rebuilt with a Belpaire firebox, so they may be more Churchwardiannny....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2721_Class

 

With the forthcoming Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches, perhaps some manufacturer should get a grip and produce a Dean loco to haul them.  Seeing as there's been lots of talk about Precedents and T26s, perhaps another 2-4-0 should be added to the list of Desirables, I give you the GWR Class 3206, the Barnum!!!

 

Sooooooo 19th Century!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_3206_Class

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose by the '20s-'30s you have 3 groups, aesthetically:

 

(i) The Churchward-Collett standard classes. 

 

(ii) Those of hybrid appearance: outside framed but with a Churchward coned boiler.  Some gained this appearance, e.g. Bulldogs, and others were built like that, e.g. Cities. 

 

(iii) The older, mainly Dean, designs, modernised but which continued with parallel boilers and domes.  Some were survivors, e.g. Dean Goods and Barnums, one class was a re-invention, Dukedogs, and yet others were new locos, built in this image, the 4800s

 

The Panniers are really a sub-set of (iii), all ultimately based on parallel boilered, domed saddle tanks. Old ex-saddle tanks and new Pannier classes all follow the same pattern. 

 

 

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

I've liked those ever since reading a series of articles in the RM about 1966 on building one and seeing one at Pendon in about 1968. Roye England seemed very surprised that a spotty 12-year-old schoolboy knew what it was...

 

This one, presumably .... 

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I was just looking at the Barnum and realised that everything above the running board/footplate was similar to the Dean Goods. 

 

It does, and, like the Dean Goods, its late B4 belpaire condition belies its original appearance.  

 

This is what they originally looked like ....

 

 

There were a plethora of GW 2-4-0s.  The prettiest were probably the Rivers.  My favourite were the Bicycles. 

 

54 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Perhaps Oxford could have a stab at it? (or perhaps not!)  O

 

 

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

[Martin S-C]

Thats the other issue with making a pre-grouping GWR RTR loco - you have the early parallel boiler variant, then the taper boiler and Belpaire firebox variant. More tooling, more cost.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One can get the impression that Great Western engines made a great turn-of-the-century leap from the truly antiquated to the ultra-modern but there was a period around the early 90s when Swindon produced some really very normal-looking locomotives:

 

 

Compare:

 

 

(Apologies for the Westinghouse pump.)

 

 

 

 

Good comparison.  Another favourite of mine, the 3232 Class; 20 built in 2 Lots 1892-1893.  To put that into some context, that places them between the last 2-2-2s built by the GW (1891-2) and the conversion and new-builds to form the famous Dean Single 4-4-2 Achilles class (from 1894). 

 

These were express passenger engines, notably used on South Wales and North-West expresses. 

[Hroth]

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

 

Thought you'd like that! 

 

Of course, the Achilles class started off as 2-2-2s, until Wigmore Castle disgraced herself in Box Tunnel.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Thats the other issue with making a pre-grouping GWR RTR loco - you have the early parallel boiler variant, then the taper boiler and Belpaire firebox variant. More tooling, more cost.

 

Perhaps someone could be persuaded to at least produce an earlier parallel boilered version.  Compared with the Belpaire fireboxes, they'd look more "ancient".

 

Good Lord!

Page 850!

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Hroth
The pagecount is rising!!!!!

[Edwardian]

22 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

 

Good Lord!

Page 850!

 

 

 

 

For which I blame you, entirely!

[Martin S-C]

That's the problem isn't it? RTR manufacturers want to make models of pre-group locos that lasted into BR so they can have as many livery variants to boost sales. With parallel boilers going out of use so early in the majority of cases one could only make such models in the one (or at most two) liveries, both pre-grouping. And then the BR modellers all start moaning "why didn't you make a model of a loco that lasted until the 50s?" etc, etc.

 

...and even worse in this case the GWR modellers might start moaning "why didn't you make a model of a loco that lasted until the 30s?" etc, etc.

I wonder if a standard model could be produced supplied with two plastic boiler/firebox/safety valve/dome mouldings to clip-fit onto the frames between cab and smokebox?

 

One of Hattons clever ploys with the generic 4- and 6-wheel coaches was that some could be modelled in 1950s departmental guise to squeeze the maximum from the exercise.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

'Normal' maybe, but not staggeringly modern. 1305 was built by Dubbs in 1876 and S&DJR no. 19, later 15 & 15A, was built by Vulcan in 1866 - very similar to 1305 but with 5ft driving wheels and a more antiquated tender.

 

 

Yes, very much miniature Johnson - something of a S&DJR trope, until the "Bulldogs". But we are seeing it as rebuilt in 1880. There is a photo of it as No. 15 in Bradley & Milton, they record that the rebuilding included: new cylinders; new inside and outside framing with the coupled wheelbase increased by 12"; new boiler; new cab; new tender with a Johnson-style tank on old Kirtley frames. So what we see is a small-wheeled 2-4-0 in the style of 1880, not 1866.

[Donw]

7 hours ago, Annie said:

Very true James.  The Armstrong and Dean era is a fascinating period of GWR history of which nothing survives.  The Churchward era swept nearly everything that was of the old GWR away.  I'm not denying that Churchward designed excellent locomotives, but for me they hold no interest at all,  The only Churchward engines I have in my digital collection are the Atlantics, everything else I have is of the Dean era or earlier.

 

Not Quite there is City of Truro and Dean Goods admittedly the Belpaire Boilers are not really Dean style. The 14xx owes rather a lot to the 517 and if we took off the panniers off a 57xx and replaced them with a saddle tank it would be something both Dean and Armstrong woulld recognise. The 1365 dock tank may look Dean like but is really a Cornish Mineral Loco rather than building a Saint which spawned the Hall with its smaller wheels, it would have been wonderful to build a new Lord of the Isles.

Don

[RedGemAlchemist]

9 hours ago, Hroth said:

I forgot, there IS another, the Hornby impression of the Class 2721 Pannier Tank.  Thats a Dean effort too!  They were originally saddle tanks but acquired the panniers after being rebuilt with a Belpaire firebox, so they may be more Churchwardiannny....

You can however find on Shapeways a kit to convert one into its pre-rebuild form. 

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/FND3M9YGY/gwr-saddle-tank-body-for-std-Hornby-0-6-0

[Martin S-C]

If we go down the kit line of enquiry there is no problem. Its RTR manufacturing which is the issue I raised and queried a possible reason why we seen no Dean/Armstrong RTR locos.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

The S&D did a lot of rebuilding and it does get quite confusing, so I am happy to concede that this is a later version. You can see no.15 in bits in this photo that has been dated circa 1880. This was when the boiler was replaced and the wheelbase extended - which is probably why the front drivers' splashers are off. It's not often that you get to see something like that actually in progress. It joined the 'A' list as 15A in May 1891. Whether the former photo was taken to record the change of number or whether it was taken after another boiler change in 1902 I don't know. The latter boiler change was to one similar to the Johnson 'Scottie' 0-6-0, if that helps.  Highbridge had its own photographic facilities. 

 

 

@phil_sutters, I'm embarrassed at having to disagree with you again on S&DJR matters, but the No. 15 in that photo is clearly the 4-4-0 of 1891 - note the shape of the front framing above footplate level, the lack of outside framing for a leading axle, and the way the splashers are joined in a sweeping curve rather than being separate - 5'9" drivers v. 5'0" on the Vulcan 2-4-0s. This photo appears in Maggs, Highbridge in its Heyday, captioned "pre-1895" - but evidently after 1891; long enough after for a 4-4-0 to be in for a heavy overhaul.

[Northroader]

This afternoons posts set me thinking about a “generic” 2-4-0. It would need to be inside frame and inside cylinders, then probably “stick on” company sets of boiler mountings, cab, side valances/outside leading bearings, tender frames.You could play fast and loose with most dimensions (well, I would, anyway) but the problem arises with driving wheel diameters, if they were in the 6’9” block hole, there’s a nice range of the more famous express engines from the big companies, but if you dropped to 5’9” diameter, the big lines still had them, and also smaller lines such as the Cambrian, and there’s the factor that generally express 2-4-0s went the way of that geezer in the desert (Ozymandias, it’s just come to me) but some of the smaller wheeled jobs just about managed to get through to BR, making the commercially attractive case that was touched on. In addition there’s the chance the chassis would come in for a 2-4-2 tank engine. It’s rather like you see somebody coming away from a show proudly bearing a Pacific kit, when you and me know a mixed traffic mogul would fit in much better.

[Annie]

Some of the groundwork for that idea of plugin detailing parts was done with the 7mm scale 'Sharpies'  from Sparkshot Custom Creations.  I was sorely tempted before I had to give up railway modelling.  Though I see now that Shapeways prices have risen beyond all sanity and the 'Sharpies' are a lot more expensive than when I was last looking at them.

[brianusa]

20 hours ago, Annie said:

22 hours ago, Hroth said:

She'll look interesting when they convert her to an Atlantic....

Arrgh! - now you've gone and awakened my love of GWR Atlantics just when I'd got it to go to sleep.

 

Ages ago, I basically remarked the same thing and I was advised it was not quite as simple as forgetting one wheel set.  Even  I figured that one out, but somewhere in the Churchward mind set was the ability to do so for his De Glehn comparisons.  The  main reasons for my interest in Edwardian locos, GW in particular is that they are different, but familiar and don't look out of place, no matter the date.  At least, during my interest in trains which now spans nearly seventy years and renewed with checking out these CA topics.

     Brian.

[Regularity]

IIRC, Churchward did build some 4-6-0s as atlantics, but in such a way as to be converted back to ten-wheelers with minimal trouble, which is what happened.