fitting Sprat & Winkle couplings to RTR locos

[Brassman_58]

Another question from a forum 'newby'

 

I am converting all my engines and rolling stock - a mixture of RTR and kit built wagons and coaches and RTR locos - to Sprat & Winkle couplings. Fitting to wagons and coaches has presented no problems so far but fitting to RTR locos is proving more of a challenge. Having made one unsatisfactory conversion I wondered if anybody could suggest a good method (with illustrations if possible). All steam locos, they are mostly from Bachmann or Hornby, mostly tank locos with three small tender locos.

 

To date I have found a number of forum posts on fitting to wagons and coach stock but nothing but passing reference to loco fitting. With a surprisingly large number of posts about S&Ws I don't claim to have been through every one so I may have missed relevant postings.

 

All help very gratefully received.

[BG John]

I just fitted either a wire loop to the buffer beam, or a straight wire between the buffers, on the ones I did many years ago. You shouldn't need a hook on the loco, unless you want to double head.

[Brassman_58]

I just fitted either a wire loop to the buffer beam, or a straight wire between the buffers, on the ones I did many years ago. You shouldn't need a hook on the loco, unless you want to double head.

Thanks  BG John.

 

The main problem I can see with your suggestion is that I am only fitting a hook on one end of the other rolling stock with a loop on the other. This seems to be working well so far and is a method recommended by quite a few people.

 

As both my layouts are end-to-end I only need to ensure that all the hooks are facing the same way. Coaches will be in fixed rakes using Keen close couplings except at each end of the train.

[BG John]

The main problem I can see with your suggestion is that I am only fitting a hook on one end of the other rolling stock with a loop on the other. This seems to be working well so far and is a method recommended by quite a few people.

Recommended by people who haven't done it themselves presumably, if they can't tell you how to deal with the locos .

 

I'm interested to know how you manage it, as I suspect I may end up converting my OO RTR stock to S&W, and being a cheapskate with quite a large, but not unlimited, stock of couplings, I don't want to buy any more, so they may well be single ended!

[Ben Alder]

Using the couplings single ended makes operating them a lot easier without two hooks chancing to meet. It also saves a bit of money if you have a lot of stock....put the hook on the end away from the buffers in sidings/yard - this will mean that nearly all the time any loco needs only a bar to work traffic (kick back sidings are a different matter ) I only ever fit bars to locos, and have one or two "barrier" wagons with double ended hooks  to place at heads of trains that need to be hauled bar first. Another unobtrusive , but fiddly, option is to fit a pivoted right angled hook to a loco bar that can be placed over the bar of a leading vehicle of a train.

 

HTH

[Brassman_58]

Using the couplings single ended makes operating them a lot easier without two hooks chancing to meet. It also saves a bit of money if you have a lot of stock....put the hook on the end away from the buffers in sidings/yard - this will mean that nearly all the time any loco needs only a bar to work traffic (kick back sidings are a different matter ) I only ever fit bars to locos, and have one or two "barrier" wagons with double ended hooks  to place at heads of trains that need to be hauled bar first. Another unobtrusive , but fiddly, option is to fit a pivoted right angled hook to a loco bar that can be placed over the bar of a leading vehicle of a train.

 

HTH

Thanks for these comments Ben. Very helpful.

[vitalspark]

If fitting to 4mm stock you should seriously consider using 3mm couplings..these are marketed as 3mm or 4mm Finescale.

 

They are much less obtrusive than the humungous 4mm ones which probably put many off..also don't fit wire across the buffers..it looks very poor.

 

Use they brass plates and make up couplings with a hook on one side only and as said a pack of couplings goes a long way doing this.

 

Also apart from easier uncoupling ..one bar &  one hook..they propel superbly.

 

We can propel ridiculously long trains over crossovers with no problem and much more reliable than the old tension locks.

 

Secret is to have the bars and hooks at correct height but this is easily achievable by making a simple height jig.

 

I also made a simple jig to solder up the components and can knock up a coupling in minutes.

 

I have demonstrated a few times at the Glasgow show and always been surprised at the interest it generates.

 

They are decent and reliable couplings and much less obtrusive than tension locks..if you use the 3mm ones...and with the chain hanging down look

 

very pleasing on wagons.

 

Also the 3mm couplings negotiate tight turnouts in the yards without problem I might add..although so called 'experts' might say otherwise..'experts'

 

that probably have no experience of using them no doubt! 

 

If you have any questions even daft ones just come back and ask.

 

 

Demo table at show with the 3mm scale couplings.

 

 

Brass loops made up on a bending jig ready to solder. Jig is a must have accessory and will save loads of time and ensure consistency.

 

 

Home made jig to allow easy soldering of loops onto brass plate.

 

 

Finished couplings with Carrs blackening. Note the solder weight on rear of flap. 

 

 

Comparison of 3mm S&W with Bachmann tension locks.

 

 

Hope this has been of some help.

 

Dave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ben Alder]

Yes, should have mentioned using the 3mm delayed action type. I don't bother with a plate for the mounting, drilling holes in the bufferbeam for the bar, and adding a packing piece of polystyrene behind the beam, if needed, to give a base for the hook, and fit the pivot wire to this. By using sprung buffers on the hook end of the wagon, a distance can be set between two wagons that allows buffers to touch when in delay mode, with no danger of buffer locking thanks to the bar. This is something you cant get with Kadees or tension locks, and adds greatly to the appearance, especially when shunting, but also when hauling a goods train.

[vitalspark]

Sounds a good idea and like the buffer to buffer contact.

 

We have so many wagons to cnvert that I thought it simpler to make the coupling up as a complete unit on the brass plates designed for same and then it was only a matter of mounting at constant heights.

 

Bachmann wagons especially the later ones are very easy as after removing the NEM the plate literally sits on the floor and attached with a bit of Araldite.

 

Any other wagons like kit built ones are easy enough to offer up ton the height jig which consists of two brass strips that have an interference touch to the underside of the buffferbeam..if not a small plasticard spacer is all thats required.

 

The great thing about these is that you can make and fit them in many ways and they work well not being too temperamental plus they are hardy enough to withstand exhibition conditions.

 

There are many other types like Dingham which I must say attract me but the S&Ws can be knocked out quickly and very cheaply and when you need dozens and dozens of the things its a decent compromise. 

 

Also as you says propelling on the bar without buffer lock was a great 'bonus' for us as I had not realised they lent themselves so well to this.

 

Our only hit and a miss has been with an electromagnet for yard shunting.

 

Still haven't found the right combination of head size/power.

 

Would be very interested to hear if anyone has arrived at the optimum setup.

 

Dave. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by vitalspark

[vitalspark]

Also has anyone experienced the third ferrous link in the 3 link chain becoming permanently magnetised from the electromagnet and then repelling it?

 

We seem to have had some strange things going on there..but after de gauzing the links with an old Ferrograph head demagnitser all ok.

 

Dave.

[ardbealach]

Started to use Sprat and Winkles on my 4mm layout and going through the process of fitting them to my stock, I was seriously considering using electromagnets for uncoupling.  Am I right in understanding from the last two postings that it would be better to use the permanent magnets for uncoupling?   

[Ben Alder]

I've used both methods with no problems. On the current set up its small neodymiums, because they are now avaliable - my older layout had electro's- and to save extra wiring. The beauty of these is that because of their size they can easily be added after track is laid. I have found that it is only when you start operating that you discover where they should be, rather than where you thought when putting things together....

[ardbealach]

Thanks for that Ben Alder.  You are right - its only when you start operating you find where uncouplers should be located.  And a new word to me 'neodymiums'  - will now google it.  That's the great thing about model railways - always something new to find out about.  Thanks again.

[Ben Alder]

Here's a link - http://www.first4magnets.com/craft-model-making-magnets-t9 -

 

HTH

[ardbealach]

Thanks for that link.  Never heard of the word 'neodymiums' then found it in an article in the Model Rail which arrived today.

 

AM 

[bourneagain]

Ben

What have you found is the optimum strength / size of these neodymium’s for use between the sleepers to successfully operate the S&W coupling?  Looking at the list of magnets from your link, some are pretty powerful and I can visualise that some of the larger strength ones would have the unnecessary problem of attracting the metal wheels on the wagon rather than the bottom link of the coupling.

[Brassman_58]

If fitting to 4mm stock you should seriously consider using 3mm couplings..these are marketed as 3mm or 4mm Finescale.

 

They are much less obtrusive than the humungous 4mm ones which probably put many off..also don't fit wire across the buffers..it looks very poor.

 

Use they brass plates and make up couplings with a hook on one side only and as said a pack of couplings goes a long way doing this.

 

Also apart from easier uncoupling ..one bar &  one hook..they propel superbly.

 

We can propel ridiculously long trains over crossovers with no problem and much more reliable than the old tension locks.

 

Secret is to have the bars and hooks at correct height but this is easily achievable by making a simple height jig.

 

I also made a simple jig to solder up the components and can knock up a coupling in minutes.

 

I have demonstrated a few times at the Glasgow show and always been surprised at the interest it generates.

 

They are decent and reliable couplings and much less obtrusive than tension locks..if you use the 3mm ones...and with the chain hanging down look

 

very pleasing on wagons.

 

Also the 3mm couplings negotiate tight turnouts in the yards without problem I might add..although so called 'experts' might say otherwise..'experts'

 

that probably have no experience of using them no doubt! 

 

If you have any questions even daft ones just come back and ask.

 

 

Demo table at show with the 3mm scale couplings.

 

IMG_1585.jpeg

 

Brass loops made up on a bending jig ready to solder. Jig is a must have accessory and will save loads of time and ensure consistency.

 

IMG00534-20120524-2350.jpeg

 

Home made jig to allow easy soldering of loops onto brass plate.

 

IMG00537-20120526-0058.jpeg

 

Finished couplings with Carrs blackening. Note the solder weight on rear of flap. 

 

IMG00595-20120605-1234.jpeg

 

Comparison of 3mm S&W with Bachmann tension locks.

 

IMG00541-20120526-1533.jpeg

 

Hope this has been of some help.

 

Dave.

Apologies for only just replying to your post. I've been busy, ill and away on holiday so this is my first look at the forum since before your post which was extremely informative and helpful. Thank you.

 

I was particularly interested in your jig. I made one of my own for bending the loops but I like the way yours can also be used for soldering.

 

As it happens I am using the finer scale couplings but it's good to have my choice confirmed.

 

Many thanks again.

 

Brian

[Ben Alder]

Ben

What have you found is the optimum strength / size of these neodymium’s for use between the sleepers to successfully operate the S&W coupling?  Looking at the list of magnets from your link, some are pretty powerful and I can visualise that some of the larger strength ones would have the unnecessary problem of attracting the metal wheels on the wagon rather than the bottom link of the coupling.

Sorry for not replying sooner - haven't looked in on this thread for a while. I used either 2 or3mm ones - small enough to fit between sleepers and tried various thicknesses to find one with just enough pull to activate the chain. I bought a selection of these, and can't remember what ones I settled on now, I'm afraid.

[vitalspark]

Apologies for only just replying to your post. I've been busy, ill and away on holiday so this is my first look at the forum since before your post which was extremely informative and helpful. Thank you.

 

I was particularly interested in your jig. I made one of my own for bending the loops but I like the way yours can also be used for soldering.

 

As it happens I am using the finer scale couplings but it's good to have my choice confirmed.

 

Many thanks again.

 

Brian

 

 

Glad it was of some help..its what the forum's about.

 

The jig for soldering up the couplings was honestly knocked up in about 10 minutes using a block of wood and coffee stirrers..the ones every modeller aquires each time they buy a tea or coffee..a handful of stirrers is mandatory for each cup!

There brass jig is a simple Bill Bedford bending jig..very effective and allows you to churn out the two loop sizes quickly and accurately.

Place the brass mounting plate on the block and pin a strip of wood each side then square it off.

I drill two holes to align with the small loop so that I can push the loop through the plate and insert in the block making it very easy to solder.

The plate and soldered loop is then inverted and placed in the frame of wood strips and the large brass loop pressed into they slots which hold it nicely and again easy to solder.

I then sandwich the hook plate between two blocks exposing just the rear edge and coat with flux then a decent blob of solder each side to act as the counterweight.

Twist the hook through 45deg and offer up to the small loop and fold same over leaving a small amount of play and test that it is free then fit the chain.

As long as all couplings are at the same height then you should have a reliable and robust coupling system.

On magnets we use permanent but would like to use electro for main line uncoupling of a coach at a through platform however its quite tricky to stop the chain over the EM as it has a much smaller footprint than the permanent mag…still working on that one.

 

Cheers

 

Dave.

[irishmail]

Just out of interest,  what is the minimum radius that the S&W 3mm couplings on 4mm will work?  In 4mm I mean standard 00 not EM or P4. 

 

Regards

 

John

[vitalspark]

Just out of interest,  what is the minimum radius that the S&W 3mm couplings on 4mm will work?  In 4mm I mean standard 00 not EM or P4. 

 

Regards

 

John

 

Hmm..not very technical but quite a lot!

 

I have never needed to find this out as we have obviously not reached it on Alloa which to be fair has large radius but in the sidings there are some quite tight movements over reverse crossings etc.

I will have a proper look on Wed night and advise.

As a guide I would say they would equate to a Bachmann 4mm tension lock as the clearances are similar although the S&W is much finer looking.

 

Dave.

[bourneagain]

If you look onto the Wizard models web site it states that “3mm version has been tested down to 3ft radius in all modes, and will also traverse 2ft curves when coupled, but not when pushing in the delay mode. So, if using the 3mm version with tight radii, set your magnet positions accordingly”  

[vitalspark]

If you look onto the Wizard models web site it states that “3mm version has been tested down to 3ft radius in all modes, and will also traverse 2ft curves when coupled, but not when pushing in the delay mode. So, if using the 3mm version with tight radii, set your magnet positions accordingly”  

 

 

Does this apply to wagons coupled with 'one hook and bar' which is the preferred set up for many. 

I am sure they would propel 2ft single hook on the bar ok  but possibly not  on the delay.

Dave.

[Wayne 37901]

Hi Vitalspark,

 

Interesting reading through this as I'm in the process of switching to sprat and winkle couplings. I do have a question and sorry if I've missed it but how you ensure consistency when making the bends in the hook plate?

 

I do like the jig you've knocked up, I was finding fitting the wire loops a little tricky, it's one of those jobs where a third hand would be handy.

 

Cheers

Wayne

[Godders]

Has anyone tried experimenting with narrower loops. If so, how narrow can you get them without compromising operation on say 3ft minimum curves?

 

Cheers Godders