France to put night train services out to tender

[DavidB-AU]

FRANCE's secretary of state for transport, Mr Alain Vidalies, has announced plans to stop funding all but two of the Lunéa overnight train services operated by French National Railways (SNCF) and to put their operation out to tender.

 

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/main-line/france-to-put-night-train-services-out-to-tender.html

[The Stationmaster]

Cue DBAG

 

Well they will have plenty of spare stock, so maybe ...

[ColinK]

Or when theyget the bids in will they decide its too expensive to keepthe services?

[Joseph_Pestell]

€100 subsidy per passenger seems an absurd figure. Amazing what the bean-counters can come up with.

 

Our service, Paris - Cerbere, was always very well used but I don't know what has happened in recent years. Much of the traffic was Paris - Toulouse, a route that is now suffering heavy competition with long-distance coaches.

 

Perhaps commercial operation will see some innovation. But really, it all depends on realistic track access regime.

[Glorious NSE]

Not too different a figure than has been bandied about for the Scottish sleeper service though.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not too different a figure than has been bandied about for the Scottish sleeper service though.

 

 

Much of the problems of the Scottish service relate to serving remote locations and needing loco change etc.

 

Cerbere used to load to 20 coaches in the summer months and it's electric all the way, albeit with reversal at Narbonne.

[Andy Hayter]

Unfortunately I think most night services are doomed.

 

The factors are many but the key ones are:

 

TGV services mean that timewise cities are closer together.  What would have been an all day trip (and so quite attractive as an all night trip - work/play on day 1, sleep overnight and work/play on day 2) now takes a little more than a morning in the TGV - and you have options for power, Wifi etc.  The businessman can use the TGV as a mobile office and the tourist arrives before finishing a good book.

The quality of the night service has deteriorated from sleeper with dining car to couchette with buffet car to sit in your seat all night and munch on your sandwiches.  The prices have not dropped commensurately.   I do understand the economics that have caused this, but it does not attract people to take a night train.

The rise of cheap air flights, and now France has internal cheap flights courtesy of EasyJet/ Ryanair and followed out of necessity by others, means that it is quicker and frequently much cheaper to fly than take any rail trip - day or night.  Ouigo is a strong competitor with such services but is restricted in routes and again is a day service.

 

Except for the high end luxury sleeping services I doubt that Europe west of Russia will have any sleepers in a few years time.

[JeffP]

Much of the problems of the Scottish service relate to serving remote locations and needing loco change etc.

 

Cerbere used to load to 20 coaches in the summer months and it's electric all the way, albeit with reversal at Narbonne.

No reversal if the train comes from  Avignon, Montpellier, Beziers, surely?

 

I once traveled on the overnight service from Beziers to Cerbere...it literally stank!

[Joseph_Pestell]

No reversal if the train comes from  Avignon, Montpellier, Beziers, surely?

 

I once traveled on the overnight service from Beziers to Cerbere...it literally stank!

 

Yes. 6,or even 8 bodies in Cabine 8, people per compartment overnight can be rather stifling! It's not a 21st century experience and I agree with others who say that it may be doomed. But I will regret its passing.

[Focalplane]

I have seen German and Italian overnight trains at Nissan (between Béziers and Narbonne).  The former is the seasonal autotrain, the latter was on a stock movement during daylight hours.  Perhaps the tender could go to international operators.

 

But times are changing with the TGV service Paris - Barcelone.  The Talgos have gone and AVE "Reseau" units venture all the way to at least Lyon.  I have travelled the AVE units from Narbonne to Lyon and find them nowhere near as comfortable as their SNCF cousins.

 

Another aspect of these changes is that timetables seem to prioritize the international services, with local connections being an afterthought.  One example is the hourly regional service from Narbonne to Perpignan now requires a wait of nearly 50 minutes at Narbonne after a high speed run from Paris.  Somewhat ironic as the LGV construction costs are partly borne by the local departments.

[Derekstuart]

I predict strikes in France.

 

(not for any particular reason, this is a standing prediction and if left to stand for more than a few weeks it seems to come true).

[melmerby]

Yes. 6 (or even 8 bodies in Cabine 8) people per compartment overnight can be rather stifling! It's not a 21st century experience and I agree with others who say that it may be doomed. But I will regret its passing.

Blimey.

Even Egyptian sleepers were only 2 per cabin. (been there done that)

 

Keith

[ColinK]

For a really fun night, try an Indian sleeper service. I've only done it once and it was great fun, even got a fair bit of sleep. It was sort of open plan with seats that convert into bunk beds. You had a curtain for privacy, but it was openned several times by people trying to find an empty bunk. Saw one cockroach scuttling about. No chance of a lie in as the bunks have to be made back into seats so everyone can get on. Somehow got two breakfasts, curry at 4am and another curry at 7am. As for the loos, the 'western style' were shall we say grim, but the 'Indian style' (hole in the floor) were useable. No retention tanks, very draughty. After the second breakfast I travelled like the locals, open the door, sit on the floor with legs dangling outside. Very relaxing, nice cool breeze.

[rockershovel]

No reversal if the train comes from  Avignon, Montpellier, Beziers, surely?

 

I once traveled on the overnight service from Beziers to Cerbere...it literally stank!

SNCF = Smelly, Noisy, Completely French

[rockershovel]

I travelled regularly on the metre-gauge line from Tunis to Sfax, a few years ago. The main thing was to make sure not to catch the one that meandered by way of Sousse, not to take a seat which was in fact broken, and make sure you went to the lavatory before leaving your hotel.

[Mad McCann]

Here beginneth the rot...

[melmerby]

Here beginneth the rot...

Gut Rot?

 

Keith

[Focalplane]

La grève - mais oui!  On one occasion a strike caused many TGVs to be cancelled on the Perpignan-Paris route.  Our niece was due to travel that day and when we turned up at Béziers, they said, yes, the next train is running.  But it was full to overcrowding and they pushed our niece onto the train, a bit like the Metro in the Paris rush hour.  So much for having a reserved seat!

 

To be fair, though, SNCF do provide reasonable compensation for a cancelled train or even one that is more than 30 minutes late.  I have received many vouchers as a result of strike action, electric storms and ice on the catenary, in some cases without even having to ask for a claim form.  By contrast, getting a claim form from First Great Western was a near impossible task, even at Paddington, they claimed they didn't have any!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have seen German and Italian overnight trains at Nissan (between Béziers and Narbonne).  The former is the seasonal autotrain, the latter was on a stock movement during daylight hours.  Perhaps the tender could go to international operators.

 

But times are changing with the TGV service Paris - Barcelone.  The Talgos have gone and AVE "Reseau" units venture all the way to at least Lyon.  I have travelled the AVE units from Narbonne to Lyon and find them nowhere near as comfortable as their SNCF cousins.

 

Another aspect of these changes is that timetables seem to prioritize the international services, with local connections being an afterthought.  One example is the hourly regional service from Narbonne to Perpignan now requires a wait of nearly 50 minutes at Narbonne after a high speed run from Paris.  Somewhat ironic as the LGV construction costs are partly borne by the local departments.

 

The Italian couchette trains that you see on that route are pilgrimage trains from Italy to Lourdes. So a charter type operation and I am not sure if FS otherwise has much capacity or knowledge of couchette operation.

 

Even with TGV, it is quite a chunk out of the day to travel from Perpignan (or beyond) to Paris. There should be adequate demand for a sleeper/couchette service so long as it can be provided to 21st century standards and RFF impose reasonable track access charges. I suspect that most passengers, if they can not have a proper bed, would prefer a comfortable reclining seat to a couchette. And one really needs to be able to get a shower on arrival.

 

As per comment above, there could well be something to be said for routing Paris-Cerbere sleeper via the Rhone Valley so that it serves Montpellier and Beziers while avoiding the reversal at Narbonne. It would also enable combining at Dijon with the services from the North-East.