Dunoon Sidings. A beginners attempt at P4

[Andrew P]

All looking very good Peter, looks like you have a lot of projects on the go now.

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

All looking very good Peter, looks like you have a lot of projects on the go now.

I sure do! My N scale 45xx needs looking at, I need to get a new chassis for my Bachmann A4, fix my L1, get new P4 wheels for my Hornby A4, finish my O scale 1F, AND get bolts and bolt the legs onto Dunoon! And that's before I even get on with adding the remaining baseboards!

 

Although I've never had quite as many layouts on the go as you have! Wasn't it Pencarne (junction), West Shed, North Road and Port Merryn at once at one stage? Looks like I'm learning from the best!

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Parcel from Hattons arrived today! Contained 2 Hornby BSKs, 2 Hornby CKs, a Bachmann FO (actually RFO) and a Bachmann RMB. 

I can now make any rake from 2 coach to 10 coach! They are all in matching maroon, however the FO/RFO is lighter than the RMB and Hornby coaches (the Hornby ones all being the same shade/glossiness except for the SO/TSO coaches which are less glossy), and the RMB is darker and a bit more gloss than the Hornby coaches.

Here are some photos

 

^ The parcel

 

^ Boxes out of the parcel

 

^ Waiting to be unwrapped

 

^ Unwrapped and on the table

 

^ Bachmann RMB (left) next to Hornby SK (right)

 

^ Bachmann RMB (right) next to Bachmann FO/RFO

 

^ Bachmann FO/RFO next to Hornby CK

 

^ A 3 coach train - BSK-CK-BSK

 

^ 4 coach train - BSK-CK-SK-BSK

 

^ 5 coach train - BSK-CK-SK-CK-BSK

 

^ 6 coach train with RFO/FO and RMB semi-permanently coupled - BSK-CK-SK-RMB/FO-BSK

 

^ 7 coach train - BSK-CK-SK-RMB/FO-CK-BSK

 

^ 8 coach train - BSK-SO-SK-RMB/FO-CK-CK-BSK

 

^ 9 coach train - BSK-SO-TSO-SK-RMB/FO-CK-CK-BSK

 

^ 10 coach train - BSK-SO-TSO-SK-RMB/FO-CK-CK-BSK-BG

 

^ 6 coach train formation BSK-SO-SK-CK-CK-BSK from BSK end

 

^ 6 coach train formation BSK-SO-SK-CK-CK-BSK from loco end

 

 

I now happily have a large number of formations which I can make up, and I can always add the Hornby Gresley FK if I want to add more first-class accommodation, along with a variation in livery and type of coach.

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

I have now changed the location of Dunoon.

 

Dunoon was originally WNW of Glasgow, so far closer to Glasgow than Edinburgh. New Dunoon is roughly ENE of Glasgow and WNW of Edinburgh. This is to allow for it to be realistic that trains would have run from both Glasgow and Edinburgh. I will do a zoomed-in shot which shows where the station is and how the track goes. Obviously the curves on real Dunoon are slightly exaggerated at a minimum of 5 chains to scale, and in theory the Glasgow line branches off to the left and Edinburgh continues on the model formation, however due to the space that will not be the case on the model.

 

Below is a map which shows what I mean. Dunoon (real) is to the far left of the map, and Dunoon (model) is where the pinpoint is. Glasgow is roughly in the centre and Edinburgh on the right.

 

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Here is the plan of the station.

 

This is very disproportionate, I only made a quick diagram to show it briefly. 

 

Black is the track on the model, and red is what it would be in reality.

 

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

And we're at Mk8! This time, the design is final, and covers the entire layout room, not just Dunoon. It measures 5m across and 7m lengthways.

 

I now have 5 platforms in Dunoon, which will be covered by a (scratchbuilt) train shed. The goods yard is significantly larger, however I will need to widen the existing baseboards to fit it in (probably by adding another section on). Dunoon MPD now has a 3 road shed and a siding for loco coal wagons. As before there is a 70' turntable at the north (south in reality) end. Dunoon South (originally North) starts at the crossover to the north (south) of Dunoon MPD on the mainline, and continues around some of the curve. Then there are the Colliery Transfer Sidings. On these, the NCB loco brings the train over a bridge over the main lines, comes around and then shunts its train into the relevant siding/s for a BR loco to collect and take to Dunoon for shipment. 

 

^ The Colliery Transfer Sidings

 

 

^ Dunoon Station

 

 

^ Dunoon MPD (Shed 65L)

 

 

^ Dunoon South and the Colliery Transfer Sidings

 

 

^ An overall plan of the layout

 

 

^ The station throat, showing the 11 curved turnouts required. All of these have been modified to suit the varying radius (between a scale 5 and 10 chains)

 

The minimum radius (except on Colliery line, where it is 300') is 5 chains however the main curves are between 10 and 20 chains. 

 

Peter

[Zomboid]

Still in P4? Very ambitious!

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Still in P4? Very ambitious!

Yes, I agree! However to get the formation I want in OO, I would still have to scratchbuild the track.

 

That being said... By my calculations I need a minimum of 203m of rail, so I'm saying 250 to be safe because the points won't be kits, they will be scratchbuilt over the templates... That means around 13,000 sleepers..... I think. Of course theres a high chance I'm really far out, as this is just an estimate. However. If that's 13,000 sleepers, I need to cut all of them to size (using C&L wooden sleepers that come in the 300mm lengths with 50 in a pack as is far cheaper than pre-cut wood or plastic), and I would also need to put down about 30,000 chairs taking into account the turnouts. Fun!

 

Either way though, I'd need the same amount of rail/chairs/sleepers in OO so for the extra realism it's pretty decent. 

 

Again though, these are just estimates...

 

Peter

[mightbe]

I would do a quick tester in P4 before committing to such a large project; a proving-ground, if you will. A modest inglenook, shelf layout, or what-have-you would give some instant gratification and help sustain interest (while moderating expenses!). I would generally suggest doing something that can be incorporated into a larger plan later-on, and the MPD seems ideal for this.

 

Ambition is healthy; success is good for the soul.

 

Quentin

Edited July 21, 2016 by mightbe

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

I would do a quick tester in P4 before committing to such a large project; a proving-ground, if you will. A modest inglenook, shelf layout, or what-have-you would give some instant gratification and help sustain interest (while moderating expenses!). I would generally suggest doing something that can be incorporated into a larger plan later-on, and the MPD seems ideal for this.

 

Ambition is healthy; success is good for the soul.

 

Quentin

I totally agree. I have actually turned an old shelf into a small diorama, a railway on an embankment crossing over a river in the middle. I've also built a turnout in P4 and converted some wagons and coaches, and I'm pretty happy with it so far.

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Well I've just finished counting sleeper lengths on Templot, and here's the data - 

 

I need 278.46m of 10" wide sleepers for plain track. In C&L packs of wooden sleepers (300mm long to cut to length), they are sold in packs of 50. I need 19 packs of these to make up the plain track, and maybe more to allow for offcuts etc. So make that 20 packs. 

 

I need 60.268m of 12" wide sleepers for turnouts. Again these are sold in packs of 50 with each length being 300mm to be cut to length. This means I would need a fraction over 4 packs, so I will be getting 5 packs.

 

I will be making a jig for sleeper cutting (for plain track, turnout sleepers will have to be cut to suit the track plan), to enable me to cut either 5 or 10 sleepers (300mm sort) at once, depending on how wide I can make the jig. This means I can cut either 40 or 80 sleepers at once, as each length allows me to make 8 sleepers with .8 of a sleeper as offcut. I will figure out what to do with the offcuts, but they will most likely become sleepers on the side of the tracks or wagon loads.

 

Overall, the cost of sleepers comes to 177.08GBP minus VAT (Inc.VAT is 212.49GBP), or $313.42 (AUD). 

 

Now I have done this, I can go through and calculate how much rail I need. And start saving!

 

Peter

[Gordon A]

I suggest your colliery sidings need re working.

I am assuming the single line is the colliery line.

 

How are you going to shunt those sidings without running out on to the main line?

You will need a longish head shunt which could be part of a loop

The colliery loco would not be allowed onto a busy mainline just for shunting moves.

 

Have you thought about the movement of your trains that deliver empty coal wagons to the exchange sidings and take the loaded wagons away?

In what direction will the loaded train depart ?

 

How will the loaded train be formed for departure with the brake van at the rear?

 

Gordon A

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

I suggest your colliery sidings need re working.

I am assuming the single line is the colliery line.

 

How are you going to shunt those sidings without running out on to the main line?

You will need a longish head shunt which could be part of a loop

The colliery loco would not be allowed onto a busy mainline just for shunting moves.

 

Have you thought about the movement of your trains that deliver empty coal wagons to the exchange sidings and take the loaded wagons away?

In what direction will the loaded train depart ?

 

How will the loaded train be formed for departure with the brake van at the rear?

 

Gordon A

I hadn't actually thought of those   

 

I think what I'll do is put another single-slip on the under the first one, and then have it maybe as a loop joining on at the top of Dunoon North, or even going around it and joining on closer to where the MPD joins the main. 

 

A loop siding in the transfer areas will need to be put in, to enable a brake van to be put on. 

 

Thanks for pointing that out before I printed out the track plan!

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

I suggest your colliery sidings need re working.

I am assuming the single line is the colliery line.

 

How are you going to shunt those sidings without running out on to the main line?

You will need a longish head shunt which could be part of a loop

The colliery loco would not be allowed onto a busy mainline just for shunting moves.

 

Have you thought about the movement of your trains that deliver empty coal wagons to the exchange sidings and take the loaded wagons away?

In what direction will the loaded train depart ?

 

How will the loaded train be formed for departure with the brake van at the rear?

 

Gordon A

 

Here is an adapted plan. There is now a dead-end siding for the colliery loco to take the train into to stop the need to go onto the main.

 

There is now also a crossover at the end of two sidings to enable a short loco (0-6-0 or such, probably a J50 or J94) to put a brake van on the end of the train before the loco then brings the train back to Dunoon along the main.

 

 

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Well I have the fully filled out BRMA membership form sitting on my desk to be posted tomorrow on the way to school!

 

After quite a while of procrastination, I have gone and done it!

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

The BRMA form has subsequently been sent off to BRMA.

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

I have a question for anyone reading this who may be able to help

 

I currently have both a Heljan Class 128 DPU and a Bachmann Class 108 DMU

 

I would like to convert these to P4 asap, but can't find suitable replacement wheelsets. 

Does anyone know if anyone makes replacement sets for one/both of them, and if so who?

 

Along with this, four more Gresley coaches have been "purchased" i.e. Dad got them and they are going away until I earn them. At least this way I don't have to worry about the potential of them selling!

 

So for now, I just need to earn the money for the Gresley's and then it's back to the layout and P4 conversions.

 

Peter

[Gordon A]

If Ultrascale do not manufacture a suitable set of wheels, try Gibson Wheels.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[mightbe]

Multiple units don't necessary fall under the purview of the conversion "kits". You'll likely have to buy coach wheels of the proper diameter for all the unpowered axles. ISTR that the 108 has a proper Ultrascale kit, but their waiting list is over 7 months long.

 

I should add; if wanting to get something running for its own sake, take the most pedestrian little loco you have (i.e. No valve gear/external workings) and get an AG kit. Jinty, 08, Bo-Bo diesel, etc

Edited July 25, 2016 by mightbe

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Multiple units don't necessary fall under the purview of the conversion "kits". You'll likely have to buy coach wheels of the proper diameter for all the unpowered axles. ISTR that the 108 has a proper Ultrascale kit, but their waiting list is over 7 months long.

 

I should add; if wanting to get something running for its own sake, take the most pedestrian little loco you have (i.e. No valve gear/external workings) and get an AG kit. Jinty, 08, Bo-Bo diesel, etc

Alright.

 

I would like to get something running.... But the only loco I currently have that would be suitable for P4 conversion (my Hornby A4 is in pieces, as is my L1, and the Bachmann A4 needs a new chassis) is a Duchess. I'm hoping to get a Heljan 27 or 17 or something similar, as apparently Heljan locos are easy to convert. Either that or I'll get a Bachmann J72 or something as I would like one of them.

 

As well as that I'm thinking of doing a small layout to exhibit next year at Caufield as I've recieved invites every year for the last three years, but the first year wasnt able to exhibit as I had other things on, and then my brothers subsequently decided N scale was as robust as wooden Thomas train sets, and I'm thinking of using the first 3 constructed Dunoon boards to make a small layout to exhibit, again based in Scotland, and use locos like the Bachmann Standards, Heljan 17 and 27 as well as my 108 and 128 if they are on P4 by the time I exhibit (if I do exhibit it).

 

Will be posting about the exhibition layout when I've decided whether to go ahead and/or printed the track plan. 

 

Peter

[mightbe]

Many have said that (uncoupled) diesel locos are dead-easy to convert to P4, regardless of manufacturer. Not owning any diesels myself, I can't say for certain but it stands to reason. No coupling rods, no quartering, no valve gear, etc. 

 

AG also sells the necessary back-to-back gauge for P4, labelled as "S4". Typically the two abbreviations are used to denote two different standards, but in this case S4 means regular P4.

[Zomboid]

I thought EM was popular for diesels, partly because 18.83 puts the wheels that much closer to the frames (which are designed for 16.5) that it could cause interference issues, whilst 18 fits more readily.

But that's probably 1995 information so could well be out of date by some margin now.

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Many have said that (uncoupled) diesel locos are dead-easy to convert to P4, regardless of manufacturer. Not owning any diesels myself, I can't say for certain but it stands to reason. No coupling rods, no quartering, no valve gear, etc. 

 

AG also sells the necessary back-to-back gauge for P4, labelled as "S4". Typically the two abbreviations are used to denote two different standards, but in this case S4 means regular P4.

Yeah, I have heard that too. It does make sense given quartering and so on. I've converted a few Hornby Mk1s to P4, by pushing the wheels out, and that's very easy, so is probably as easy with diesels except slotting in new wheels. 

 

I thought EM was popular for diesels, partly because 18.83 puts the wheels that much closer to the frames (which are designed for 16.5) that it could cause interference issues, whilst 18 fits more readily.

But that's probably 1995 information so could well be out of date by some margin now.

Yeah. The same also goes for diesels and coaches (My Hornby Gresleys were a right pain in the ar$e to convert, in the future I'm just going to get whitemetal sides and coach compensation units from MJT).

 

Brassmasters and Ultrascale do overlay sideframes for steam locos to make it seem more like the wheels are next to the frame, which are definitely going to be used on the relevant locos (Brassmasters do the EasiChas for the LNER A1/A3 and A4, LMS 3F and 4F, SR C class and GWR 42xx and 72xx and a detailing kit for the 4MT but the detailing kit doesn't include side frame overlays and Ultrascale do the ROD and 2800/3800. 

 

My application for BRMA has gone through!, and I hope to be going to the next meeting.

 

Sadly nothing will be purchased until I've paid for 4 Gresley's which I mentioned above (there are 2 BGs, a Buffet and a Sleeping car) and I will then purchase CCUs for them and the one Gresley I haven't converted yet, and maybe brass sides to turn the Sleepers and FK into a couple of SKs and BSKs to fit on the planned layout.

 

Peter

[Gordon A]

I thought EM was popular for diesels, partly because 18.83 puts the wheels that much closer to the frames (which are designed for 16.5) that it could cause interference issues, whilst 18 fits more readily.

But that's probably 1995 information so could well be out of date by some margin now.

 

That might have been the case many years ago but not now.

EM has two standards 18mm and 18.2mm.

IIRC 18mm standards accommodate 00 standard wheels while 18.2 tend to use finer flanges.

 

Gordon A

Edited July 26, 2016 by Gordon A

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

That might have been the case many years ago but not now.

EM has two standards 18mm and 18.2mm.

IIRC 18mm standards accommodate 00 standard wheels while 18.2 tend to use finer flanges.

 

Gordon A

Yeah

 

I only found out about the 18mm one while reading through a bunch of old Model Rail Journals I was given, until then I'd thought EM was 18.2mm.

I think that's correct about the 18mm using 00 but 18.2 using finer flanges.

 

Peter