mosquito Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Does anybody know if it is possible to replace the motor of an old Keyser kit with a more modern motor, the motor fitted at present looks like an old Triang 04. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 You could replace the motor and final drive gear with a Mashima motor and High Level gearbox. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Depends what chassis you want to use under it. If it's the original old style K's chassis, it could be a problem, otherwise build a new chassis then I would agree with the above post. Which kit is it?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Which kit is it? I have a K's 57XX which runs beautifully. The old complete K's kits came with K's Mk 1 or Mk 2 motor, with two magnets and a flywheel. Quite honestly apart from poor torque which is curable, there is nothing wrong with the K's Mk 1 or Mk2. The torque can be improved by substituting 3 pole Triang Power bogie armatures. The flywheel makes them very smooth running. Changing the drive gear on a K's chassis is a challenge as the wheels were pressed on at the factory, The alternative is Romford wheels and gears but that gets expensive. Add in a High level gearbox and Mashima motor and you are talking serious dosh. Later K's kits came with a tiny joke motor just about powerful enough to power a Dapol Railbus, The X04 is not too bad as long as it is on appropriate gearing, the Triang TT single start worm is a direct substitute for the standard brass worm, If the kit is a bodyline on a Hornby chassis you are looking at a new chassis if you want to fit a motor gearbox, and that gets expensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallmodelspares Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 The current RailRoad 0-6-0t like the jinty has a useful gear system, which could be adapted to suit the chassis, Sometimes a remag might be needed on the motor if its not great as mostly these motors might have been taken apart or used then shelved several times in its life Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosquito Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 It's an old Black 5, no idea what kind of wheels or chassis, I connected 12 volts direct to the motor and nuffin, didn't try the magnet but I will have a look at again this evening and post a pic or two later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosquito Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Here it is in all it's glory, as you will see on the third photo down the axle bushes are held by some kind of aged adhesive, chassis detail can be seen on the last pic. Any advice much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Its a K's Mk 2 I think with the armature shaft cut short and no flywheel. The chassis has some K's wheels I am not familiar with but appear to screw on. The chassis is a masterpiece of bodgery. Respect. Obviously it is a K's of some vintage . The axle bushes are in backwards, the flange fits outside the frames ans there should be no need at all for adhesive, but and the side frames appear to have been spaced apart to allow the motor to sit lower?. Bin it. Fitting valve gear will be a problem and really there is very little to work with. Keep the motor, it is a shame the shaft has bee shortened so you can not fit a flywheel but a bit of oil in the bearings and it will probably be fine. You have to break the pole pieces off the magnets to change the armature on these, I have done one aralditing it back together but it was awkward, the MK 1 is easier, but difficult to fit as it lacks a flat base. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosquito Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Bin it?? No way, I am a stubborn old fart and too miserable to turf it in the bin. Later today I will take it apart and see why it does not run, if I can't get it running then I have a good old 04 motor which will be fitted then the resurrection will continue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 You will have to butcher an X04 to fit, the pole pieces are almost certainly too wide and the front plate has locating ears which will have to be filed off and there is no tapped fixing hole in the lower pole piece. The brush gear is also much wider and may not fit the body Remove the motor and test it. The motor looks fine to me, no overheating, maybe a stuck brush?. The chassis will be better if you can get the wheels off and turn the top hat bushes the right way round. I always try to put shims between the drive gear and the chassis to limit side play instead of relying on the back of the wheels against the chassis. If the gear moves sideways the drive train will bind and that may be why it wont run. I suspect someone has tried to get your chassis around 17" or less radius curves, which is not going to happen with all flanged wheels and non jointed coupling rods. File the top hat flange on the rear drivers down if you need sideplay. 4-6-0s are best driven on the front axle as it cannot have sideplay or the crankpins foul the connecting rods. I spent ages on a K's Dean Goods chassis before I binned it in favour of re working a Triang Jinty chassis with Romford wheels etc and even now I eye up the old chassis side frames and think of re doing it to fit a Pannier Tank. Maybe if I live to 150 I might get round to it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 How is the motor secured? If there is a screw into the tapped hole in the pole piece, that had just shy of two turns of thread. By the time the bolt has engaged it with any solidity the armature is mechanically locked solid. If the motor does turn by hand, then as above probably a brush out of contact preventing it running when given power. To redouble on what has already been posted. With the motor out, try rolling the chassis through the smallest radius curve you want the model to negotiate. It will derail if I am any judge, unless your layout is in the 'all greater than 36" radius' category. It has been neatly constructed, but you will have to find your own way in making it a practical running proposition. If it can be made to work on the minimum radius you require, then a Mashima motor and kit gearbox to the front axle is the way to go. Quieter and smoother running than the direct drive open frame motor combo, and it won't disintegrate an hour after you have the model completed: that's the K's mk2 (glued together) motor's specialist party piece... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 ....Later K's kits came with a tiny joke motor just about powerful enough to power a Dapol Railbus, .... That's assuming it didn't overheat first - the front of the motor spindle (at the plastic gear box end) had no bearing at all, so it revolved in plastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosquito Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Took it to bits today and found that the top brush is the culprit, I got it running but do not trust the the brush assembly which was held in place with glue so the motor is destined for the bin. Decisions decisions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlswood Nob Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Good morning all I am a great fan of High Level Gearboxes. They do a planner on their website with details. I recently had an old Kays Mk1 motor fail with the top brush coming loose, with the carbon brush almost disappeared. It was built over 40 years ago and had great pulling power, so I'm not unhappy with it. In this case I have built a scratch chassis and fitted a Mashima 1624 with a High Level Road Runner Plus gearbox. If you want to keep the original chassis the High Level Slimliner will fit between the frames. I find that the Mashima/High Level combination gives Portescap performance at half the price. It is also much quieter that a Portescap. Earlswood nob P.S. I have no connection with any supplier other than a satisfied customer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Mosquito You have several options firstly regarding the motor, these do come up quite regularly on eBay ( I have built up a small stock) quite cheaply, you can either buy one to replace it or use as spares for yours. The gears look like Romfords (do they have grub screws) as the K's worm gear was a push/glue fit The wheels are the newer plastic D type and to be quite honest if they work leave them alone as taking them off then putting them back may damage them Longer term it might be worth keeping an eye out on eBay for a replacement set of Romfords/Markits wheels, then a slimline Highlevel gearbox with a decent modern motor would improve matters further. If going to that expense then an etched chassis will be even better, but then is the loco worth the expense. I would initially have a short term plan, give the chassis and motor a good clean then lightly oil. If you are unhappy with the motor look out for a replacement/spares and buy one. I would also have a longer term plan, Its worthwhile sourcing a set of decent replacement wheels, as they should have 6' wheels then 24 mm Romfords do come up on eBay sometimes cheaply. Mashima motors also are available, just wait for one no one else spots. This way you will not pay a kings ransom for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosquito Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 Thanks for all the advice and information gents, I am going to have another go at getting the brushes secure and the motor running but if no luck then the High Level stuff well be the way to go as far as the gearbox and motor is concerned. It might take ages to find a replacement on e bay but there is no rush. . One thing I have found out is that I need to go to an opticians for a new pair of glasses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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