Ffestiniog to build new Fairlie

[ngtrains.com]

I don't have a recent figure or one that I can easily extract a bogie cost from.

 

In 2006 I project managed Merddin's overhaul and that ran to about £160k+ but included two new bogies and extensive boiler repairs by an outside contractor.

 

More recently the pair for DLG with monobloc piston valves have been made but having not been involved I have no handle on the cost. I'll see if I can find out

 

 

UPDATE - according to the Society website the DLG bogies cost £200k

[Chameleon]

I had no idea they were all on new or nearly new bogies. Which leads me on to how much of the original Fairlie's are actually left? Are they all Triggers locos or is there still a fair bit of original loco left in some?

[ngtrains.com]

Not a lot.

Only Merddin in the operational fleet has any original bits and they're cosmetic bits plus it's lifting injectors. Not even the whistle is original having fell of a black 5.

 

Earl was built new, finished in 1979.

DLG was built new in 1992

Tal was new in 1999

 

Not surprising really when, typically, two of the Fairlies are warm from Easter to October and do 12k miles a year

[Zomboid]

How original is the one at the NRM? (assuming its still there - and is it in a state that anyone would even consider setting fire to it again?).

[Andy Kirkham]

How original is the one at the NRM? (assuming its still there - and is it in a state that anyone would even consider setting fire to it again?).

My understanding is that it is mostly "original" (i.e. dating from before the preservation era), although I don't know how much survives from when it was built in 1885; the old FfR in the days of its prosperity used to renew their locos quite drastically. I think the boiler is from 1906.

 

I believe it is completely worn out with no prospect of running again.

[rockershovel]

... which raises an interesting point about the usage of the term "original". If the FR possesses three Fairlies which never ran, or even existed under the pre-preservation regime, and those three locos are still largely as-built, then surely they are "original" in any proper sense of the term?

 

They may date from a later era, they may be so modified in design terms that they form a separate class or classes, but surely they are "original" in tne sense of being as constructed, and are true FR locos in the sense of being constructed to this highly distinctive design, to FR specifications, by the successor to the commercial company for duty on the FR as currently constituted?

[Zomboid]

That's a stone under which lurks an interesting debate...

They're definitely original in my mind, but couldn't be described as preserved, since they're new built steam locomotives for the railway as it stands now.

And does the railway itself (and many other heritage railways) count as preserved these days, given that it's mostly running new locomotives, hauling new carriages, over a partly newly built route? It's doing what the original company would have, had it survived IMO, so it's more preserved than a rolling museum.

[Dunsignalling]

I don't think the term "original" can or should ever be used in relation to a working steam locomotive of any real age. That's not how they function.

 

The nearest one can get is "restored to original specification" and even that is very unusual, simply because they were built to work and, if someone came up with a modification to make them work better, they got modified.

 

A good example is Rocket; the working replica looks far more like the as-built loco than does the actual loco which contains some of its original components but which received modifications that markedly altered its appearance. The process continues on railways of all sizes; check out the Plymouth Collision thread to see how 2nd Generation DMus are still evolving.

 

You are never going to get the "matching numbers" situation so sought after by collectors of old cars and motorcycles. I remember, years ago, reading an analysis of a stripped-down LMS Black Five which revealed that parts of it had previously featured in around two dozen other locos, not all of them Black Fives.  

 

It's a reliable rule of thumb that the economic life of a steam loco was/is about 40 years. Not everything wore out in that time but, in general, enough did to make replacement more sensible than repair unless special factors/needs intervened (e.g. the Lyme Regis branch).

 

Certain examples (like Rocket) may warrant historical conservation rather than active "preservation", but that's a different discussion. The FR conducted their own, less rigorous, conservation by combining parts of worn-out Fairlies to reproduce a more complete impression of the "originals" in static form.    

 

John  

[asmay2002]

It's a reliable rule of thumb that the economic life of a steam loco was/is about 40 years.

 

 

I'm not sure about reliable. That's the BR number I think.  They increased it to that as an accoutant's dodge because they couldn't replace them any faster in the 50s.  The LMS worked to 30 something and the LNWR reckoned on 18.

[Butler Henderson]

Usually a steam loco is accounted by its frames and whatever may be bolted on becomes part of it whilst bolted on. The classic example in preservation is Rood Ashton Hall which for many years was thought to be Albert Hall.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm not sure about reliable. That's the BR number I think.  They increased it to that as an accoutant's dodge because they couldn't replace them any faster in the 50s.  The LMS worked to 30 something and the LNWR reckoned on 18.

The LMS was, perhaps a slightly special case in having inherited large numbers of underpowered ex-Midland locos and a very mixed selection of locos built in small numbers from other constituents; replacement of which needed to be justified whether they were life expired or not. The LNWR are widely reputed to have worked their locos extremely hard so, in both cases, those figures would have reflected their own situation. The LMS was, as it turned out, not around to impose its accounting standard on locos of its own designs. 

 

BR certainly imposed a 30-year rule on coaching stock from c1960 but there but late 1920s/1930s steam locos had to be kept going until enough (reliable) diesels became available, whatever the accountants laid down.

 

By BR days, 30 (odd) years seems to have reflected reality in the case of most top-link steam locos doing the work they were designed for; beyond that, they were generally relegated to secondary duties (if suitable work existed) whilst providing a useful standby for their original purpose in an emergency.

 

On that basis, the iconic high-power passenger locos (with the exception of the Southern Lord Nelsons somewhat earlier) would not be superseded by new steam power but, had not dieselization happened, a programme to replace the "7P" and "8P" classes with a new generation of steam locos would have had to begin by the mid-1960s.

 

That would have been interesting to see. 

 

John

 

EDIT: Sorry    Forgot what thread this was in when I replied!

[PenrithBeacon]

The 30 (or 35, take your pick) was imposed by the annual Finance Acts as are all other accounting rules.

 

Prior to 1844 there was no regulation on railway finance, but since then successive regulatory acts have tightened up the rules. The then government passed a Railway Loans Act in, I think 1929, which really tightened up the rules on railway accounting. It was because of this Act that the railways had to be much more careful about using the term 'rebuilt' and why the last batch of Patriots were considered to be new-builds and the Scots were 'converted' not 'rebuilt'.

 

Nowadays, the annual Finance Acts determine accountancy rules for all companies, rail and otherwise.

 

Regards

[Dunsignalling]

The 30 (or 35, take your pick) was imposed by the annual Finance Acts as are all other accounting rules.

 

Prior to 1844 there was no regulation on railway finance, but since then successive regulatory acts have tightened up the rules. The then government passed a Railway Loans Act in, I think 1929, which really tightened up the rules on railway accounting. It was because of this Act that the railways had to be much more careful about using the term 'rebuilt' and why the last batch of Patriots were considered to be new-builds and the Scots were 'converted' not 'rebuilt'.

 

Nowadays, the annual Finance Acts determine accountancy rules for all companies, rail and otherwise.

 

Regards

But the fact that the book value of an asset had been written off didn't necessarily mean that it was of no further physical use.

 

The 40 year lifespan related more to the point at which further repairs wouldn't really achieve anything in mechanical terms; i.e. another major item would be likely to fail before the cost of the work had been recovered.

 

Modern engineering, particularly welding techniques and materials, makes it possible to repair/restore much that would have been considered "too far gone" in the not-so-distant past.

 

John

[mcowgill]

And does the railway itself (and many other heritage railways) count as preserved these days, given that it's mostly running new locomotives, hauling new carriages, over a partly newly built route? It's doing what the original company would have, had it survived IMO, so it's more preserved than a rolling museum.

 

Unlike almost all other heritage railways, the FR Company did survive, today's railway is run by the same legal entity that opened it in 1836.

 

Martin

[Chameleon]

Isn't the Talyllyn the only line that never officially closed? The preservationists took over straight from the original operating company. The Ffestiniog was closed for 8-9 years before takeover.

[PenrithBeacon]

But the fact that the book value of an asset had been written off didn't necessarily mean that it was of no further physical use.

 

...

 

John

Very true but after the value of the item was fully written off it would no longer be part of the companies capital value or at least it would only have residual value.

 

Important for taxation purposes I believe but then I'm not an accountant so I might be wrong. No doubt somone will tell me if I am

 

Regards

[rockershovel]

Unlike almost all other heritage railways, the FR Company did survive, today's railway is run by the same legal entity that opened it in 1836.

 

Martin

Yes, but the structure of Company, Trust and Society is specific to the preservation era.

[Butler Henderson]

Isn't the Talyllyn the only line that never officially closed? The preservationists took over straight from the original operating company. The Ffestiniog was closed for 8-9 years before takeover.

Vale of Rheidol?

[Chameleon]

, forgot about that one. I suppose you could include the snowden railway too.

I could quantify that by saying the Talyllyn was the only "working" railway that never closed, as opposed to tourist lines like the other two.

[Zomboid]

The 15 inch version of Ravenglass? Didn't that open as a freight and tourism concern in 1920-something and continue to operate ever since? And the RHDR for that matter...

[ForestPines]

Isn't the Talyllyn the only line that never officially closed? The preservationists took over straight from the original operating company. The Ffestiniog was closed for 8-9 years before takeover.

I've a feeling the Middleton Railway also never closed.

 

Some part of the FFestiniog was always used for operating trains even when most of the line was closed: one of the slate quarries used the FR main line to reach the ex-LNWR exchange sidings.

[rockershovel]

The VoR was nationalised, as were the Welshpool and Corris lines so whichever legal form they now take, it isn't the original company.

[Marshall5]

The VoR was nationalised, as were the Welshpool and Corris lines so whichever legal form they now take, it isn't the original company.

The W&L and VoR were taken over by the Cambrian and all 3 were absorbed by the GWR long before nationalisation but your point is still valid.

Ray.

[Andy Kirkham]

Vale of Rheidol?

I think VoR services were suspended during World War 2.

[Andy Kirkham]

The 15 inch version of Ravenglass? Didn't that open as a freight and tourism concern in 1920-something and continue to operate ever since? And the RHDR for that matter...

I think you're right. At the time the Talyllyn first  proclaimed the "We Never Closed" slogan, the R&E would still have been operating commercially, but it later passed seamlessly into preservation. 

 

How about the Kingswear line? I think it was purchased from BR as a going concern, but I guess there must have been a gap between the end of BR services and the beginning of private ones.