Ffestiniog to build new Fairlie

[EddieB]

Er ...... I remember it being in the shop, under construction, so now feel old.

 

 

Ah yes, the Summer of 1979.  I was doing a mapping project of the geology around Penrhyndeudraeth, or at least in between taking time off to photograph trains, go birding or listen to "From a Jack To a King" at the local watering hole.  (Is there still a jukebox, and is the track still a fixture?)  I'd seen the Earl nearing completion at Boston Lodge, then a few test runs across the Cob.

 

The nineteenth of July was a Thursday, so I should have been mapping rocks, but somehow found myself at Tan-y-Bwlch when the new Earl pulled in on its maiden passenger service. After a few pictures while the crew made checks, I drove up to Tanygrisiau (then the end of the line) to buy a ticket to ride part of the way back behind it..

 

 

I can't say that I was ever partial to that brutal, angular body design.

[TomJ]

I know the Ffestiniog doesn't really have a museum as such but is there any possibility of EoM being preserved as a static exhibit in the meantime? It is almost 40yrs old and is part of the Ffestiniog heritage - a heritage that didn't get frozen in 1939 or 1945 but carries on today. EoM is a big part of the story of the push to rebuild to Blaenau and is very much a project of its time. Clearly if the FWHR was building a brand new loco today (as indeed they are) they wouldn't build EoM but they did and it fitted the need for many years perfectly.It seems a shame if its structure was just to be hidden away in a shed for ever.

 

There is something ironic about a railway that prides itself on having some of the oldest narrow gauge locos withdrawing one of its newer ones for being life-expired!

[ngtrains.com]

TomJ, and others.......

 

I think you are missing one aspect of this plan to build a new Fairlie.

 

Plan A was the expectation that at the imminent end of its 10yr ticket EofM would be rebuilt with the new design of boiler which, whilst different, is designed to fit in the space envelope of the current boiler. Further, the expectation was that it would also be rebuilt with the traditional outline tanks that were made 10+ yrs ago. That would definitely been the end of The Square.

 

Instead, plan B, build a new one from scratch leaves the out of ticket EofM's superstructure in tact. There are absolutely no plans to scrap it anytime soon. This leaves the way open for longer term proposals for display/restoration to a different business model that Plan A would have precluded.

 

As a business its been decided that as a works job done by the paid staff and with the practical need to have an engine in traffic their money is best spent on the new one. The alternative could be that with separate fund raising model (rich sponsor, legacy, lottery win) and with volunteer labour over a longer period keeping the cost down it could be cosmetically restored or returned to traffic.

 

I would stress this next bit is me just thinking aloud but, say, the Square preservation society (when its formed) raised enough cash in five years the Square could get a second copy of the new boiler. If they took 10yrs then Merddin would be in for its next 10yr O/H at which time it's expected (as much as you can guessing the future) it'll get a new pattern boiler. Of the two 1968 boilers its likely that Merddin's is the better one to overhaul and could be reused on the Square.

 

Basically with no plan to cut it up there are future opportunities we don't know at this time

[dana]

I do like the looks of the square with its classic modern brutalistic looks. The beast shouts 70's to me and should be kept . A new build loco being built before the earl retires makes perfect sense to me . Looking forwards to updates .

[rockershovel]

The explanation above seems to me, a perfect explanation of what I have always understood the FR to be - an organisation focussed upon the practicalities of funding and operating a line of this sort. The first major project was to complete the re-assembly, re-erection or whichever is the correct usage, of a loco for which the major components were to hand. The Penryn "Ladies" were brought in because they were felt to be useful and have been highly successful, with ongoing development over time. Plus ca change...

 

Personally, I don't care for the looks of the beast but others do. It's certainly an integral part of the line's history and I get a distinct impression that there is an unstated offer to anyone who sees fit to arrange its preservation and restoration, without absorbing resources felt to be best employed elsewhere.

 

The FR has always seemed to me to be an organisation which "got things done"

[Merfyn Jones]

Sounds like 1979 all over again but with todays more enlightened times. No need this time for intervention from "​The Active Fourty"  .

​

[David Bigcheeseplant]

EoM looks much better now than when first built with round smokeboxes and other alterations over the years. When ME was rebuilt in the late 1960s or early 1970s that looked really horrible, too small D shaped smokeboxes square tanks and a smokebox door hung on the other side. Over the years it has been modified to look much better. I think the current overhaul may improve it even more.

 

There is something about the old Spooner look that looked right, It will be interesting to see how James Spooner will look, I think the original was shorter than both ME or LT even after being rebuilt with a wagon top boiler. still looked slightly stumpy.

 

David

[ngtrains.com]

Well, the FR Society Magazine has landed and the official version is: -

• We build a new James Spooner, so new boiler, new body on The Square's bogies *
• We store The Square superstructure
• We work on new plans which include the restoration of Mountainer and The Square both of which are not easy or cheap tasks

 

* no such thing really. The bogies are independant of the loco and they are only the squares because its currently sat on them, they were Merddin's new ones before Merddin got even newer ones

[Horsetan]

i can also recall the new Earl being built in the mid-70's, so its done nearly 40 years since, ....

 

....which, oddly enough, was thought to be more or less the economic life of a steam engine in the days of steam.

[Zomboid]

EoM was (I think) the loco that I took uphill the one time I did the Ffestiniog (Think it was Linda on the downhill run). I remember wanting a ride behind Mountaineer, but that wasn't running that day. So where to I send the cheque for getting the Alco going again?

[Andy Kirkham]

....which, oddly enough, was thought to be more or less the economic life of a steam engine in the days of steam.

Yes, it's been in service longer than most Castles were.

[rockershovel]

Interesting to see Mountaineer back in the frame again. I've always found this an interesting engine.

[Horsetan]

Interesting to see Mountaineer back in the frame again. I've always found this an interesting engine.

 

I actually liked the original Mountaineer design when I saw her for the first time in 1981. Very modernist looks.

[PenrithBeacon]

I got used to it! I bit of distinction on a railway which nowadays lack variety.

 

 

Regards

[Dava]

At the risk of going off topic, I just wonder what 'the original Mountaineer design' is, so far as the ALCO on the FR is concerned. When first acquired from Pithiviers by Paul Ransom it was too big to run on the line so had to be drastically reduced in height,also width. Subsequent rebuilds and reboilering led to many further changes in search of performance and reliability. Actually looked quite close to WW1 condition running in WD grey in the 1990's. There is an historic bar frame in there somewhere, I don't know what else survives of the original. Possibly a Marmite/french mustard/peanut butter [depending on your taste] loco. Good to hear it is stored safely, what about future prospects?

 

Dava

[Zomboid]

I'm not familiar with the details, but would the original mountaineer fit on the WHR? That looks to have a bigger loading gauge.

Though I suppose its doubtful that it would be any use there given how powerful those garretts are.

[Baldwin30762]

I am sure Paul Martin can tell us more about Mountaineer, but personally I would like to keep as much of it as is possible, I understand she needs a new boiler to start with and I think the cylinders needed to be renewed, there was also a discussion that the frames are knackered as well, to be honest she has had a hard life and she is probably beyond economic repair for the sort of use the FR may require. Seeing that they can build new locos, I don't know why she is not just left as is and a new 2-6-2 to the FR loading gauge is not build to replace her? 

 

I am sure a heritage group could restore her to something like her WW1 condition if they wanted to without whole sale replacement of all the parts I have mentioned above, except for the boiler as I understand it will require a new one what ever way you go.  

[ngtrains.com]

Mountaineer........

 

One of the problems with getting it to the front of the overhaul queue is the issue of deciding what it should look like. The majority of those who are likely to be the ones actually doing any of the overhaul would mostly like to see it stay looking as it is now and in which form it did most of its useful work. This is the view that Paul Lewin also suggests in the current FR Society Magazine.  The trouble is there have been a long line of proposals which cover everything from WW1 condition, as recived by the FR (and a significant number mistake the two for each other forgetting in came with an abortion of a French sugar railway cab), original slopey FR cab and the present one. There have also been proposals that we should sell it or that it should  go off site to be restored whilst b*ggering about with its wheels to regauge it for pure 2ft gauge as part of WW1 commemerations. There are issues with both of those:-

• I am not sure that we can sell it. It was given to the Railway (maybe loaned/gifted - not sure of the exact term) and I believe that included some ties that would make a sale complicated if not impossible.
• As a matter of principle any work done to it will be done at Boston Lodge. An overlooked thing in the more hair brained schemes is we would want to keep the work in house to sustain local employment and keep our own works staff in jobs. It actually goes further than that in that the more work of this nature they take on increases the works's capability. If you see the FR/WHR or FR/WHR insider Facebook groups (a lot of which gets shared to other groups) you will see the wide range of work getting done with two new boilers in build for example (Construction of Welsh Pony's has started, parts have arrived for the new Fairlie boiler)

The multiple schemes suggested by different people and those who like to tell the railway how they're doing it all wrong split the effort/interest so actually nothing happens and also have one other key characteristic - the forthrightness of thier view is inversley proportional to the money they're offering to do it right.  Until the money stacks up how it looks is immaterial - to some extent if you turned up with £400k expressly for Moutaineer you could have it look how you wanted it.

 

A quick note on the WW1 recreations/commemerations - The FR/WHR recognised the importance of these in the next few years and considered what their reaction should be. After due consideration it has been decided that others such as Apedale have this exceptionally well covered and that doing something on either the FR or WHR didn't fit in with the day to day business or the railways own history based galas like the annual Victorian Weekend in October and would run the risk of looking half baked and poorly done compared to the offers by others. As a result the FR/WHR aren't planning anything online but are supporting others. For example our Simplex, Baldwin and buster are off to France at the beginning of May

 

Back to Mountaineer....

 

I am not going to list the full repair list here as some of it is conjecture at this time but it sits safely stored out of ticket with a cracked firebox tubeplate and is generally very worn out after years of hard work.  When the commemeration idea was still a possibility there was a suggestion of welding up the tubeplate and retubing it to get it a boiler ticket and restricting it to light duties but even that needs a budget of £20k (ish) and a proper repair makes more sense.

 

If you take a simplified view that its knackered from the rails up you'll have an idea of the extent of the repair/overhaul needed. There are issues with overhaul of the bar frames, cylinders, valves and boiler that however they are addressed will attract a big bill. For example we know the boiler is poorly, whether we mend it or replace it it'll still be a big bill. Only when a full assessment gets done will we know the detail and formulate a plan. I could tell you what I think but then it would only be my view and someone else will tell you different

 

 

[ngtrains.com]

 

Thx for the informative insight here Paul. Do you happen to know if FR management has looked at cosmetically restoring the loco to a presentable "as-is" condition and have it on display for the duration of finding funds as well as resolving the "how should it look" feud discussions?

 

Damn, my internet connection burped as i started this reply

 

Simple answer no!

 

Longer answer. The loco is mothballed, greased up and stored in the dry at Glan-y-Pwll and is quite safe where it is for now. It is on the rails and it mobile and was actually on display at Boston Lodge for an event last year. Any cosmetic tarting up is counter productive being undone the instant you start the scoping the coming work, uses money that isnt there, uses resources that are busy and lacks the venue to display it and will do so until we ever get the mythical musuem built.

 

Actually having typed both those versions I'll ammend the first one to

 

Simple Answer, Yes and dismissed it.

[Baldwin30762]

Thanks for the update Paul, as you say there are many ideas about how various people feel they would like to see Mountaineer, As I see it there are three issues that need to be addressed and they are not for sites like this:-

 

1 An agreed business plan for Mountaineer which will include restoration costs and to estimate just how much it would cost to do each of the variations there of:- WW1 condition, Sugar beet Railway condition, as first rebuilt condition, as later (current rebuilt condition).

 

2 To decide exactly what you want her to do, IE stay with the FR or let her go out on long term loan to other railways to promote the FR and regain some of the restoration cost via hire fees (oh and did I say provide those that would be interested some of the FR volunteers with some GGF in the process at other railways).

 

3 Finally set up an active group to raise the funds for the agreed course of action.

 

That said, someone, somewhere needs to decide who is going to be responsible for this project and give them the mandate to carry it out.

 

As I understand it the FR Trust own the loco and so in the real world they should decided on what happens, They could start with consulting with the FR Membership and listen to all the proposals, that would allow point one to go forward.

 

After that they can discuss with the FR Company as to what is to happen with her and if she fits in to the the current business model for the Railway, that would take care of point two.

 

Finally if she was to get the green light, appoint some one to become the project manager to over see her restoration. point three made.

 

As Paul Lewin has indicated the consultation period with the FRS members will start soon, so if anyone wants to have there suggestion heard then why not join the FRS now

 

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Rainsbury

[ngtrains.com]

Oh goody, someone else with no money telling us what to do

[Baldwin30762]

No, when some one with the authority tells me what they want to do with her, then I will consider putting my money into the project, I don't think it is to hard to ask for a project to be well managed before you start asking for money.  

[Chameleon]

Getting somewhat back to the OP, are all the bogies interchangeable between locos, including Talesin? Are there any spares? I take it, building a couple of new ones would be prohibitively expensive? Is Talesins bogie the only non original (ie, new) one they have?

[ngtrains.com]

Now you are asking.........

 

Musical Bogies have been the subject of full articles in the society magazine so I don't plan on re hashing the full saga here, even if I could remember it all, so here is an abridged version

 

The basic core of the bogies are interchangeable but some details are different requiring alteration. The result is that bogies can be swapped but its not quite a simple as lifting the body wheeling one lot out and wheeling the others in. Things like lubrication, brake and speedo connections need adjusting between the loco's. They are also treated as pairs so a top end and a bottom end bogie because one end has to built to run in reverse when the other is in forward. Swaps have been done overnight. DLG ran a season on, I think, Merddin's bogies and it all connected up except the handbrake as the arrangements were quite different. At night in the shed it was chocked and as you rolled it out of the shed to light it up. Once in steam its was fine as the steam brakes are all you need. The `modern' Fairlie bogie has the steam brake cylinder built into the back of the bogie so the mechanical linkages are short with a flexible hose connection to the body. This is a lot better than the old arrangement where a single brake cylinder was on the footplate connected to the bogies by mechanical linkages. Given only the inner axles are braked this could result in some heart stopping moments as you rolled down 4 rd towards a set of coaches and, on the tight curve, apply the brakes and all it does is take up the slack in the linkages. Back when the engines were like that drivers were very attept at poling the reverser and applying some steam - reverse thrust effectively.

 

Building new bogies is an expense but its something that Boston Lodge has done regularly as all three and half of the Fairlies are now sat on modern era bogies.  The saga goes something like this......

 

• Merddin is on bogies built in 2006 (ish)
• Earl is on bogies originally built for Merddin in the mid 90 but freed up by Merddin's late 90's boiler ills
• DLG is on new ones with piston valve cylinders built about three years ago
• Tal is on its own bogie which was built as slide valve but now has the piston valve monoblock cylinders

 

• Spare - two completely knackered ones that contain bits of ancient bogies. These latterly came from under the Earl. They were withdrawn as they are completely worn out. a rebuild of these would involve replacing so much that you would just build new. They would do for cosmetic display of the Earl

 

That's where they have ended up but they may have got their via other engines

[rockershovel]

That was my understanding of the "Mountaineer" position - that it was a "heritage loco" in more ways than one; an early bequest/sale hedged about with conditions about its subsequent possible disposal, completely life-expired, and of little functional use to the present railway in any case. 

 

Sounds to me, that as it is in safe hands and in secure storage, it might as well stay there until some useful proposal emerges. There are plenty of "preserved" engines which can't say that.