Ffestiniog to build new Fairlie

[ngtrains.com]

 

The definition of a double fairlie is two boilers back to back on one frame

cobblers

 

A double Fairlie only has one boiler. It may have two fireboxes (Little Blunder only had one), and it may have two sets of tubes and two chimneys but its just one boiler. The water and steam space is common throughout and passes completely through the cab. Another difference, although i don't know if its a defining factor, is seperate regulators to power supply steam to each bogie. So you can drive it around with one only one end going chuff however, apart from light engine shunting moves or if we've broken it, we don't.

 

Merddin Emrys - Naked

 

Merddin Emrys & David Lloyd George - race to completion of overhauls

A single Fairlie has both a powered and unpowered truck that articulate.

 

A mason bogie is nothing more than a single Fairlie designed by someone trying to avoid paying the dues on the Fairlie patent. Each one built had yet another varient of live steam or exhaust steam flexible connections each trying to make it work without incurring patent fees. Any extension of range is down to size.

 

That thing above with two boilers isnt a double Fairlie and its probably another patent avoiding attempt

[PaulRhB]

Ah one of your colleagues on the FR explained it as two years ago in just this debate because of the two fireboxes, mind you that was in The Ship! I see the point though as it's a common steam space, it's one pressure vessel.

What a tangled web of definition as usual

[rockershovel]

I'd always understood that the principal types were as follows

 

Double Fairlie - built under Robert Fairlie's patents; symmetrical, double-ended loco with single common steam space (although YEC are stated to have built locks under Fairlie patents with independent boilers). Fully articulated (swivelling) power bogies under the boiler. No carrying wheels, although YEC are stated to have built a batch of 2-6-6-2 units. Steam transmitted through ball joint at centre of motion of power bogie. Cylinders under smokebox. Simple expansion, unsuperheated.

 

Single Fairlie - one end of the above, cab supported on fully articulated (swivelling) unpowered bogie.

 

Golwe, modified Fairlie, Mason etc - variants of the above with varying combinations of the main features but not within Fairlies patents.

 

Forney - not an articulated loco at all, look similar to Masons but that's all

 

Meyer, Kitson Meyer - single overall frame carrying single boiler, bunkers and water tanks supported over two fully articulated power bogies. Carrying wheels, if fitted, are integral to power bogie - not mounted to main overall frame. Cylinders disposed almost anywhere, sometimes with auxiliary exhausts protruding here and there. May be simple expansion, compound, superheated or unsuperheated according to taste. May be fitted with rack gear, assymetric wheel arrangements, frames variously disposed on the two bogies, generally odd looking bloody things.

 

Du Bousquet - French Meyer, basically.

 

Garratt - boiler on central bridge. Outer ends supported by power bogies carrying water and bunkers. Cylinders generally at outer ends. Power bogies on fully articulated pivots, but not symmetrical about centre of bogie. Carrying wheels integral with power bogies

 

Mallet - single boiler with non-articulated rear power unit, semi-articulated front power unit wth rear swivel behind power unit and load bearing slide under the front of the boiler. TRUE Mallets are compound expansion but the term is often misapplied to simple-expansion designs. Swan neck exhaust pipe under smokebox from front power unit, on compound designs

[ngtrains.com]

You have clearly misunderstood the Double Fairlie.

 

Live steam does not pass through a ball joint in the centre of rotation. That was one of the many of Masons ideas which included using the weight of the body to create the seal. More likely to have represented an early attempt at vertical take off.

 

Live steam exits the body at the base of the smokebox facing the centre. In a pipe layout that represents an n on its side it goes towards the centre, down and the back to a flange on the steam chest. Variously this pipe has included cast iron swivelling joints, ones with PTFE in them and, now, lengths of armoured wire reinforced flexible hose.

 

Exhaust steam is directly below the chimney with top and bottom spherical joints for side to side movement and sliding tubes to allow for vertical movement.

 

You haven't got Garratts right either. Cylinder position isn't part of the spec. Ref K1.

[asmay2002]

Double Fairlie - built under Robert Fairlie's patents; symmetrical, double-ended loco with single common steam space (although YEC are stated to have built locks under Fairlie patents with independent boilers). Fully articulated (swivelling) power bogies under the boiler. No carrying wheels, although YEC are stated to have built a batch of 2-6-6-2 units.

 

 

 

Avonside 1241-2 of 1879. One of two built for Western Australia.  Contemporary with Merddin Emrys.

[rockershovel]

.... hence, "cylinders generally at outside ends". AFAIK K1 was/is the only Garratt with inboard cylinders? Exactly why they have outboard cylinders, I don't know.

[John_Hughes]

I'd always understood that the Mason Bogies were built under licence and paid their dues accordingly. The Forneys were a sort of half-and-half arrangement, looking like a single Fairlie without actually being one - despite which they were reputedly excellent runners.

[rockershovel]

I'd always understood that the Mason Bogies were built under licence and paid their dues accordingly. The Forneys were a sort of half-and-half arrangement, looking like a single Fairlie without actually being one - despite which they were reputedly excellent runners.

I'd also understood that Mason Bogies were basically US Fairlies, but having looked up the subject (including the Festipedia article covering Fairlie's patent) this doesn't appear to be correct. The "pendulum pipe" steam delivery on Fairlies is a case in point.

 

The Mason Bogie idea of a swivel joint using the weight of the supported component to load and hence, secure the seal across the joint faces is an American idea which appears in various applications. It's one if those things that looks attractive, but doesn't actually work as well as you might think.

 

Forneys are not articulated, full stop. They derive from the American lineage of lightly-built 4-4-0 types built to cope with light track and sharp curves, before the effective side-springing of bogies was understood - some 4-4-0 types also have flangeless leading drivers for the same reason. Forneys were very successful for stop-start, short-haul elevated urban services where they ran cab-first, until replaced by electric traction

[Titan]

So what do you make of this then?

 

[rockershovel]

So what do you make of this then?

 

It's a Fairlie Ingenious...

[rockershovel]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLUxzdpfI9Crun_OUaN7c5ojGWptO3dW4r&v=Xb13gN1RUis

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KO_WFu5LwEo

[rockershovel]

Digressing slightly, while following up the various points raised in this thread, I encountered a point which is certainly new to me.

 

It seems that Mason had a background in textile machinery manufacture. It seems that in that industry, machinery must be finished to a high standard so there are no points to snag on, damaging the fabric. Textile machinery was a major early category of factory machinery, so the early locomotive designers brought those standards with them.

[Titan]

My favourite...

 

https://youtu.be/fYWInVJ12Ag

[John_Hughes]

(snipped)

 

Forneys are not articulated, full stop. They derive from the American lineage of lightly-built 4-4-0 types built to cope with light track and sharp curves, before the effective side-springing of bogies was understood - some 4-4-0 types also have flangeless leading drivers for the same reason. Forneys were very successful for stop-start, short-haul elevated urban services where they ran cab-first, until replaced by electric traction

 

There were also very successful on the Maine 2-footers, and tales are told that they could be worked up to a mile-a-minute. Pinch of salt time, to be sure, but it shows what smooth runners they were.

[rockershovel]

There were also very successful on the Maine 2-footers, and tales are told that they could be worked up to a mile-a-minute. Pinch of salt time, to be sure, but it shows what smooth runners they were.

The 4-4-0 was by far the most successful type on American railroads during the nineteenth century, and the original urban commuter Forneys were intended to be run cab-first (effectively, a cab-first 4-4-0). How were they used on the narrow gauge lines?

[John_Hughes]

Here's a picture of one of them in preservation.

 

Lovely little things! As far as I know they were generally also turned to run bunker-first, but pictures do exist of them running t'other way.

[rockershovel]

Here's a picture of one of them in preservation.

 

Lovely little things! As far as I know they were generally also turned to run bunker-first, but pictures do exist of them running t'other way.

They do have a certain "something", don't they?

[John_Hughes]

They do have a certain "something", don't they?

 

Yes - wouldn't it be nice to have a spanking new one to pull the Carrabassett parlour car on its visits to the Ffestiniog / WHR!

[Mike 84C]

Thank you Paul for explaining the future plans for the new Fairlie build and the definitions of other articulateds, please keep the thread up to speed.

Was there not a plan years ago to rebuild the Alco as a tender 2-6-2 much like the Sandy River locos or did I dream it! I'm sure I didn't.

Was'nt K1 built to the original patent which included compounding? so short steam pipes need inboard cylinders I believe the only other Garrat built as a compound was 1 for Burma but I could be mistaken.

I always thought, as explained by Bob Harris and Fred Boughey, that the weakness in Fairlie boilers is that as they expand they tend to take on a banana shape this can cause cracking around the throat plate. Is this resolved with modern design? I remember steam coming out from underneath the lagging on M.E. Quite a problem!

Mick

[Andy Kirkham]

I see the boiler barrels for James Spooner have been delivered http://www.isengard.co.uk/images/JPEGS/James%20Spooner_F&WHR2-12-16boiler%20barrel.jpg and I'm very interested to note that they appear have a genuine tapered profile. I believe preservation era Fairlie boilers until now have been parallel with a cosmetic hump. Nice to see that G.P.Spooner had it right all along!

[David Bigcheeseplant]

David Lloyd George has a taper boiler

[Hando]

Hoped for a moment it was Moel Tryfan....

 

Don't we all!

[SWTH]

I see the boiler barrels for James Spooner have been delivered http://www.isengard.co.uk/images/JPEGS/James%20Spooner_F&WHR2-12-16boiler%20barrel.jpg and I'm very interested to note that they appear have a genuine tapered profile. I believe preservation era Fairlie boilers until now have been parallel with a cosmetic hump. Nice to see that G.P.Spooner had it right all along!

The Merddin and LT were built with wagon top boilers rather than taper boilers. James Spooner was fitted with a wagon top boiler later in its life, having been built with a parallel boiler originally.

 

The David Lloyd George was the first FR Fairlie to have a taper boiler, the new design is a combination of the best bits of the DLG's boiler design and the firebox staying arrangements of the Hunslet-built parallel boilers currently on ME and EoM.