How many unfitted brake vans on unfitted freight, late 30s

[ColHut]

Can anybody point me to where the requirements for brake vans in unfitted freights might be found. Time period is the mid to late 30s.

 

The General Appendix provides the various requirements for express (including unfitted), mixed trins and coaching stock trains, but my interest is in common or garden unfitted trains. I understand how to calculate braking effort, but I am guessing there was a ready reckoner or table based upon the engine and number wagons with some equivalences for differt tpes of wagon which was used. Maybe it even referred to the weather and rail conditions? Accident reports though do usually refer to the percentage of braking force available so maybe not.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Regards

[Andy W]

You'd normally only ever have the one brake van, because an unfitted brake van requires a real live guard to apply the hand brake. On an unfitted train the real purpose of the brake van is to keep the couplings taut to avoid couplings breaking or jumping off the hook when the gradient changes. Of course it does play a part in slowing the train when necessary, but the brake force is mostly supplied by the locomotive, and it would be more far usual to add another loco than to add more brake vans and guards.

There are tables in the freight working timetables showing the maximum load that could be worked by various classes of locos on individual sections of line, and of course the maximum length of trains also has an effect, if the sidings and goods loops can't take 120 wagons there's no point in running trains that size, even if there is no problem starting and stopping them.

[LMS2968]

You'd normally only ever have the one brake van, because an unfitted brake van requires a real live guard to apply the hand brake. On an unfitted train the real purpose of the brake van is to keep the couplings taut to avoid couplings breaking or jumping off the hook when the gradient changes. Of course it does play a part in slowing the train when necessary, but the brake force is mostly supplied by the locomotive, and it would be more far usual to add another loco than to add more brake vans and guards.

There are tables in the freight working timetables showing the maximum load that could be worked by various classes of locos on individual sections of line, and of course the maximum length of trains also has an effect, if the sidings and goods loops can't take 120 wagons there's no point in running trains that size, even if there is no problem starting and stopping them.

Couldn't have said it better. The requirement was for one brake van only. If the number of wagons / weight of train exceeded what the single van could manage then the load would be reduced rather than add more vans. Such a case was the Bootle Branch down to Liverpool docks: the management wanted to increase the loadings with the introduction of (I think) Super Ds but the guards pointed out that these new loadings were beyond the capacity of the van to control them and they were never instituted.

 

You could get more than one brake in the train. There were various reasons: 1) to return one or more vans to a starting point due to unbalanced workings not providing a loaded return; 2) at the head of the train if it was to reverse at some point in its journey; 3) at a point where the train was to be split and proceed in different directions; 4) at the head or rear of a train of inflammable material to act as barrier wagons. But only one van - the rearmost - would be manned.

[HillsideDepot]

A couple of points to bear in mind, the speeds of unfitted goods trains were generally low, and whilst things could (and did!) get out of control it's perhaps difficult for us, in our modern high-speed everything world, to appreciate that. Also, good driving technique is to use external factors to control the train, rather than just power and brake. So the driver would use an up hill gradient as a brake, he'd shut off power early to allow the rolling resistance of the train to slow things down. It's still good driving practise to do this, but the modern congested railway (and power brakes on all vehicles) means that things need to be worked a bit harder. When an unfitted train reached the top of a steep down gradient it would be stopped and the Guard would pin down the appropriate number of wagon brakes to control the train as it descended. Again, things didn't always go to plan!  

 

Finally, and after the 1930's era of the original question, there was a move to providing a "fitted head" of vacuum braked wagons to assist in braking, sometimes wagons were there just for that reason, and not to carry loads at all. Likewise the invention of the diesel brake tender, again developed for reasons slightly different to the original question, but mentioned to show that while various ideas were used over the years to improve braking performance, they didn't include extra brake vans.

[Rivercider]

I have not got time to read through properly yet but the SR General Appendix to the WTT from March 1934

shows requirements for brake vans on the incline from Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central, and more than one is required on heavy trains,

 

cheers

[LMS2968]

I have not got time to read through properly yet but the SR General Appendix to the WTT from March 1934

shows requirements for brake vans on the incline from Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central, and more than one is required on heavy trains,

 

cheers

That's a very strange way of doing things. The more usual way on steep down gradients is as HillsideDepot says: pin down an appropriate number of handbrakes on the normal wagons. At Exeter, I can assume only that the extra vans simply had their brakes screwed down during the descent but were not actually manned.

 

Very odd!

[The Stationmaster]

That's a very strange way of doing things. The more usual way on steep down gradients is as HillsideDepot says: pin down an appropriate number of handbrakes on the normal wagons. At Exeter, I can assume only that the extra vans simply had their brakes screwed down during the descent but were not actually manned.

 

Very odd!

 

Yes and no.  The additional brakevan(s) was(were) required to be attached next to the engine and one was manned while if there were two the other had the handbrake screwed down.  In other words - apart from one potentially having the handbrake continuously under the control of the second Guard they were no different from, and only supplemented, the pinned down handbrakes on the wagons.

 

When you think about this is the obvious way to add brakeforce as putting them at the rear of the train and applying extra brakeforce there might cause the train to part as the van brakes would effectively be holding almost the entire weight of the train on a very steep gradient.

[LMS2968]

Hmm... even the Lickey Incline didn't merit that!

[Fat Controller]

It should be noted that some railways in pre-Grouping days had built six and eight-wheel brake-vans for use on heavier trains on steeply-graded lines, whilst the Folkestone Harbour line had a small pool of specially-constructed vans used for the very steep gradient from Folkestone East to the Harbour.

[ColHut]

Interesting in light of mixed trains requiring progressively heavier goods brake vans depending on the number of unfitted wagons attached, (albeit the usual limit was 30 vehicles of all types) in addition to any braked coaching stock including passenger brake vans.

 

Noted Station Masters comments above, I suppose like unfitted express freight (limited to 45 full or 50 empty wagons) in which "two or three fitted braked wagons" were to be connected up behind the engine where such were included in the train, doubtless for some additional braking capacity.

 

Was there a formula for determing the braking percentage then depending on gradients and weather?

 

Regards

[Fat Controller]

Interesting in light of mixed trains requiring progressively heavier goods brake vans depending on the number of unfitted wagons attached, (albeit the usual limit was 30 vehicles of all types) in addition to any braked coaching stock including passenger brake vans.

 

Noted Station Masters comments above, I suppose like unfitted express freight (limited to 45 full or 50 empty wagons) in which "two or three fitted braked wagons" were to be connected up behind the engine where such were included in the train, doubtless for some additional braking capacity.

 

Was there a formula for determing the braking percentage then depending on gradients and weather?

 

Regards

'Express' often related, not to the maximum speed permitted, but to the number of stops to examine the train that had to be made. Such freights would be composed of wagons with the more-recent oil axleboxes, rather than than grease boxes; wagons using the latter would be stopped every twenty or so miles to check the boxes weren't running hot, so the average speed would be painfully slow. 

There will have been tables indicating how many brakes would be needed to be 'pinned down' on certain gradients, presumably with mention of figures for wet rails- I've witnessed the results when someone has mis-calculated. My first eighteen years were spent in a house overlooking the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr Railway, which had several long and steep gradients; every so often, a long blast on the horn would be heard, indicating that the train was running away. If the driver was lucky, the train would stop before the sand-drag protecting the main line at Old Castle; on at least one occasion it didn't, ending up with its nose half-buried in the cutting side.

[keefer]

re: pinning down of brakes - there would often be instructions in the Gen App/Sec.App supplemented by trackside notices.

The general principle was that enough brakes were pinned down so as to hold the train on the incline - the loco would then move the train.

This meant that the loco and brakevan brakes would be available as additional braking, over and above that applied by the wagon brakes - particularly useful should the train start to slip or run away. 

[The Stationmaster]

There were never any sort of Instructions I'm aware of giving a number of brakes to  be pinned down - in fact to do so would be courting danger as people would simply apply that number and assume all was well,  Instead the principle was entirely practical - get the train onto the gradient and apply sufficient wagon brakes to hold it stationary with the engine and brakevan brakes released.  Thus the train was effectively its own brake and the engine had to apply power in order to start it - with the engine (and tender if it had one) brakes then being used to control it and keep the speed down to little more than walking pace.

 

On a diesel the loco's straight air brake would be used for that purpose hence the advantage of having a heavy loco with, ideally, more than two axle bogies - which made teh EE Type 3s such ideal locos for incline working.

[Nearholmer]

I'll ferret through a 1930s SR sectional appendix if I get a spare half-hour, because I know ( but can't recall exactly where) that there were SE and C Section requirements for abnormal van arrangements. Some were "head and tail", to avoid loads of shunting in busy places, on services that zig-zagged about a bit.

 

K

[Gordon A]

My research on the Bitterley branch from Ludlow has shown that if the train was more than 12 wagons there would be two brake vans with one in the middle. The train would be split with the first half proceeding to on to Bitterley. The engine would then return to pick up the second half.

 

Gordon A

[Rivercider]

Here is a scan of the page from the March 1934 SR General Western Appendix giving details of working

Downs Goods and Ballast Trains from Exeter Central to Exeter St Davids.

 

 

I had a scan through the Appendix for other locations where more than one brake van is required to be manned.

I found two more in the West Country with which I am familiar.

 

 

Mortehoe to Ilfracombe goods trains were limited to 25 loaded goods vehicles including brake vans.

In summary if the train is worked by 1 loco. 

Not exceeding 11 vehicles    1 van

11 - 15 vehicles   2 ten ton vans or 1 twenty ton van (with a man in each)

16 - 25 vehicles   1 ten ton van and 1 twenty ton van (with a man in each)

When two brake vans are attached the twenty ton van goes on the rear, the ten ton van after the 11th vehicle.

(if the train is worked by two locos then only one twenty ton van is required on the rear.)

 

Between Tipton St Johns and Sidmouth.

'A goods train between Tipton St. Johns and Sidmouth must have a heavy brake van of not less than 20 tons, which, wherever possible, should be fitted with sanding apparatus.  Should, however, a brake van of this desciption not be obtainable, two smaller brake vans, with a man in each, must be provided at the rear' .

 

Edit -  and Tipton St John was among the relatively small number of locations listed in the above publication that kept a supply of brake van sand.

 

 

There may be other examples in other parts of the Region.

 

cheers

[ColHut]

Thanks for that. Very interesting. I must see if I can find something similar for the LNER.

 

Regards

[ColHut]

Having done some trawling of my meagre resources, I found only one reference on the M&GN where on heavy loads either one 17ton or two 10 ton brake vans were to be attached at rear.

 

Most additional vans were to run next to he engine.

 

Regards

[Nearholmer]

I did make a brief foray through the Eastern & Central Appendix to the SR WTT of 1935, and the Folkestone Harbour Branch and a couple of other notably steep sections were covered by specific rules about the "tonnage" of vans per quantity of wagons (seems to work out at about 1T of brake van per wagon).

 

I couldn't find anything about attaching vans at both ends of trains that reversed at busy places en-route, but I know for sure that this was a convention, not for braking-power, but to avoid shunting, so perhaps it was set-out in marshalling instructions, or as a footnote in the WTT proper.

 

Kevin

[number6]

All this talk of pinning brakes has me wondering... 

 

If the train has to traverse a continuous gradient I guess experience and rules can tell the number of brakes required to hold the train. If it has to descend a number of different gradients is it likely that you'd have to drag the train part way down. Or is that a situation where further stops would be made to adjust the balance of brakes applied?

 

Did wheels lock up? Or is the act of pinning just a drag on the wheel? Wheel flats seem very common these days - were they also common during unfitted days? I presume loaded wagons behaved differently to lightly loaded or empty one? Wheels on locos picked up all the time - and of course was the cause of many runaways - I assume that wagons could also lose traction and slide on the rail head to?

 

if you could get the handbrake on sufficiently tight on a brake van could you lock the wheels up. Or is that what the guard is for - to avoid that happening. I presume a braked but rolling wheel has more traction on the rail than a sliding one.

[Fat Controller]

All this talk of pinning brakes has me wondering... 

 

If the train has to traverse a continuous gradient I guess experience and rules can tell the number of brakes required to hold the train. If it has to descend a number of different gradients is it likely that you'd have to drag the train part way down. Or is that a situation where further stops would be made to adjust the balance of brakes applied?

 

Did wheels lock up? Or is the act of pinning just a drag on the wheel? Wheel flats seem very common these days - were they also common during unfitted days? I presume loaded wagons behaved differently to lightly loaded or empty one? Wheels on locos picked up all the time - and of course was the cause of many runaways - I assume that wagons could also lose traction and slide on the rail head to?

 

if you could get the handbrake on sufficiently tight on a brake van could you lock the wheels up. Or is that what the guard is for - to avoid that happening. I presume a braked but rolling wheel has more traction on the rail than a sliding one.

I mentioned earlier, I believe, about living at the lower end of the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr Railway, where brakes were pinned down for the descent from Cynheidre. It was common to see brake shoes glowing red with the heat generated by friction. On a memorable occasion, this caused the oil in the brake van axleboxes to catch light, with the wooden body following. Flats were commonplace, as were the regular thump of brake-shoes against flat, when the brakes hadn't been secured in the off position.

[John_Miles]

The Neath & Brecon WTT for around 1904 states that on the climb from Ynisygeinon to the Bwlch (Bwlch just means pass in Welsh), there had to be a brake van for every 15 wagons and they all had to have guards present. The confusing thing was that the this part of the N&B was worked by the Midland so the requirement applied to Midland trains. When the Midland built some 20 ton brake vans, the requirement was changed to a single 20 ton van. The ruling gradient on this line was 1 in 50 and there was an uninterrupted climb of around 13 miles for trains from Swansea to Brecon and although most trains were banked, the requirement still applied.

[mike morley]

Did wheels lock up? Or is the act of pinning just a drag on the wheel? Wheel flats seem very common these days - were they also common during unfitted days? I

 

The Brecon and Merthyr became extremely unpopular with their neighbours because they used to sprag wagon wheels (Shove a substantial piece of wood between the spokes) on gradients and wear flats in the tyres rather than use brakes.

[LMS2968]

The Brecon and Merthyr became extremely unpopular with their neighbours because they used to sprag wagon wheels (Shove a substantial piece of wood between the spokes) on gradients and wear flats in the tyres rather than use brakes.

It certainly wouldn't win you any friends!

 

You would need to try really hard to lock up wagon wheels with the handbrake lever, but the brake van was a different matter. It was advisable in poor rail conditions to wind it partially off then back on again repeatedly to prevent wheel slide, and hope it worked. That is probably the reason for the multiple manned brake vans mentioned in various posts above: screwing down the brake then leaving the van unattended would allow the wheels to pick up, and a sliding van has far less retarding force than one whose wheels are revolving within the brake blocks.

 

I don't recall any requirements for multiple vans on the LMR, though. Even Miles Platting - 1 in 47 for some distance, with a major junction and Victoria station at the foot - only required wagon brakes to be pinned down. Different Railways, different working methods...

[Edwin_m]

Does the question of extra vans versus pinning down brakes depend on the variability of gradient on a particular incline?  If it is a constant downgrade then the number of brakes to pin down can be established during a stop at the top, so the train runs at a sensible speed with the loco and van brakes held "in reserve" in case a stop is needed.  But if the gradient changes significantly then the train would have to be stopped to adjust the number of pinned brakes, unless the extra brake vans could be used to adjust the brake force while on the move.