Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Hi Tony. From what I understand K's assembled their Coronation kits themselves (or subcontracted out) for Wrenn with Wrenn telling them where extra mounting plates/brackets needed to be. Some of the Coronations had transfers supplied to do it yourself and those are maybe what I have seen, I know Rails of Sheffield had one recently and the lining was lifting off every boiler band. At least a professional would know how to put them on and seal them in place. I don't know if they could have made a full body mould from an assembled kit regarding the Radial but as you say we can only guess now. I have no idea what the SR guards van was although if it is a bogie one (Queen Mary) then no they did not make it. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 16, 2016 Author Share Posted April 16, 2016 Interesting information about the Wrenn A4 chassis being adapted from the City - one of my HD gaps at the moment is Golden Fleece so I've never had the HD A4 to compare. It would explain why the Mk2 version of the A4 and City came out simultaneously. The Wrenn/Ks Coronation has always rather appealed to me because it such an interesting hybrid, but so few got successfully made that it is unlikely ever to be cheap. However, as we have discussed prices are pretty stable these days, and with patience, who knows? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I am a little unfamiliar with what is the Mk2 chassis? If that was with the larger wheels then the one fits both was out a long time before that but I cannot say when. I can say I have never had a large wheeled chassis. You cannot fit a Wrenn A4 chassis into the Dublo body as they are completely different fittings. It would take a lot to match the two, Dublo A4's had a plate riveted on by the buffers and had a screw riveted in it that slipped through the chassis. Wrenn had a tapped hole in the smokebox behind the sloping doors. I am not saying it cannot be done but not easy. Good luck with your search for the Coronation. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 16, 2016 Author Share Posted April 16, 2016 Thanks for the info on the construction differences between the HD and Wrenn A4s. The Mk2 chassis for the City/A4 was introduced at the same time as the Streamlined Coronation, and used the larger wheels from the Castle, flanged on all axles, with a centre wheel pickup added. A 5-Pole motor was fitted. The Mk2 City locos also had a backhead casting fitted to the cab, as used in the Streamlined model. There was no additional sideways springing on the centre axle and some Wrenn users apparently complained that the Mk2 chassis didn't like sharper radius curves, so models still continued to be made with the Mk1 chassis. From around 1989, the larger wheels began to be fitted even to Mk1 chassis, but with unflanged centre drivers. The larger wheels do make a difference to the look of the model, I've always viewed them as the ultimate evolution of the Dublo models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I had no idea that Wrenn was quite so arcane - I am loving this thread! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Thanks for the info on the construction differences between the HD and Wrenn A4s. The Mk2 chassis for the City/A4 was introduced at the same time as the Streamlined Coronation, and used the larger wheels from the Castle, flanged on all axles, with a centre wheel pickup added. A 5-Pole motor was fitted. The Mk2 City locos also had a backhead casting fitted to the cab, as used in the Streamlined model. There was no additional sideways springing on the centre axle and some Wrenn users apparently complained that the Mk2 chassis didn't like sharper radius curves, so models still continued to be made with the Mk1 chassis. From around 1989, the larger wheels began to be fitted even to Mk1 chassis, but with unflanged centre drivers. The larger wheels do make a difference to the look of the model, I've always viewed them as the ultimate evolution of the Dublo models. Does anyone have pictures of the different models with both Mk1 and Mk2 chassis with the different sized wheels for a side by side comparison? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 16, 2016 Author Share Posted April 16, 2016 Here are links to two images, one of the W2228 City of Birmingham: http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=603581 ...and one of the W2228M2 Mk2 version with larger wheels, 5 pole motor and backhead detail. http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=570203 Both from the Vectis website, you can enlarge them by clicking on them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 I believe Dapol have retooled the FRUIT D body - the two I have are different from the Dublo and Wrenn versions I have. I'm not sure about the other ex-Dublo wagons in their range. Some are available unpainted very reasonably direct from Dapol. Not having one, I was unaware of the modifications to the A4 chassis. My Dublo 'City of London'* runs on a Wrenn chassis which fits perfectly. At least the block is Wrenn; the wheels are Dublo and the cylinders and valvegear are from a Dublo Duchess. I think the mazak crosshead looks better than the later pressed tin effort and Dublo valvegear is much easier to obtain anyway. * My City was assembled from parts. Originally she had a Duchess chassis with a hole drilled in the front for the fixing screw (It should have been Meccano Whitworth thread, but was actually metric A little force and it will modify the thread.) A piece of PCB board cut to shape took care of the rear mounting. She now has the correct screw! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 17, 2016 Author Share Posted April 17, 2016 I believe Dapol have retooled the FRUIT D body - the two I have are different from the Dublo and Wrenn versions I have. I'm not sure about the other ex-Dublo wagons in their range. Some are available unpainted very reasonably direct from Dapol. Thanks, yes, I've been made aware that the Fruit D in the Dapol range is not the HD model. I did buy a Dapol Gunpowder Van at Ally Pally this year and that definitely is from the HD body tool - looking very good after all these years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Thanks, yes, I've been made aware that the Fruit D in the Dapol range is not the HD model. I did buy a Dapol Gunpowder Van at Ally Pally this year and that definitely is from the HD body tool - looking very good after all these years. I understand some examples of the Dapol model have running problems - my two run on Dublo underframes.... The Dublo models were state of the art in their day and most are still acceptable today. Unfortunately, there are a few dimensional errors due to a common underframe and having to fit a standard box (Dublo were/are not alone in this!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted April 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2016 If I recall correctly Wrenn once listed the EMU for reintroduction in maroon livery which I think would have looked well. Sadly it never appeared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steam69 Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 If I recall correctly Wrenn once listed the EMU for reintroduction in maroon livery which I think would have looked well. Sadly it never appeared. Colin Since the demise of Wrenn, Cooper Trains have produced this model now sold out. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Colin Since the demise of Wrenn, Cooper Trains have produced this model now sold out. Richard I did email Tony Cooper a couple of weeks ago & he still has two if you are interested.I would have loved a set but i`m a runner & i would never put it on the track so i had to decline,pity Wrenn never made it. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 18, 2016 Author Share Posted April 18, 2016 Yes, they listed two proposed liveries - Midland Region maroon and Southern Region Green. Hornby Dublo only issues it in the SR version. The EMU was actually a fairly good model of a London Midland class 501 EMU, but in real life they ran in MU Green, lined brunswick green, blue and blue-grey so neither the HD version or the proposed Wrenn version used actual liveries.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dublodad Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Andyman7 The 501's were built at Eastliegh, and were originally painted southern green. After overhaul, which was at Wolverton, they were painted in DMU green. As you say they were never painted Maroon. this livery is a figment of those who never lived in the London area and never ever saw them. I have been having a similar discussion on the HRCA members only forum Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 I have posted a video in the Dublo section of a Wrenn A4 chassis under a Trix A3 body (The White Night, Flying Scotsman has a Dublo chassis). If interested here is the link http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103302-playing-with-Hornby-dublo-3-rail-again/page-3&do=findComment&comment=2278045 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 18, 2016 Author Share Posted April 18, 2016 Andyman7 The 501's were built at Eastliegh, and were originally painted southern green. After overhaul, which was at Wolverton, they were painted in DMU green. As you say they were never painted Maroon. this livery is a figment of those who never lived in the London area and never ever saw them. I have been having a similar discussion on the HRCA members only forum Terry Yes, they were my local trains when I was young so I knew them very well indeed - one of my specialist subjects so to speak. MU Green = 'Southern' green; the DMU green is the same as the loco green and as per many DMUs was complemented by straw lining. You can see why the (proposed) Wrenn model intrigued me as a lad... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Interestingly when you compare the Dublo A3 to the Wrenn one in my video the Wrenn is at is maximum haulage capacity. The Dublo would pull a few more. One of the possibilities which has been discussed several times is the plating of the wheels. A lot of people have commented on the fact that the original Dublo mazak wheeled locos pulled better than when they changed to plated wheels. If you saw my earlier video with Evening Star on its maximum was the 5 the A3 had plus 3 short parcels vans. The A3 could not manage one of those as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 It was just a minor mistake at Doncaster works during overhaul when the fitter forgot to put the covers back on Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Yes, they were my local trains when I was young so I knew them very well indeed - one of my specialist subjects so to speak. MU Green = 'Southern' green; the DMU green is the same as the loco green and as per many DMUs was complemented by straw lining. You can see why the (proposed) Wrenn model intrigued me as a lad... I can't see where the maroon livery came from. AFAIK all the BR built multiple units were in green. The Dublo ones were presumably lettered Southern as there was a mania for such things in the early sixties, following laments in the modelling press about the shortage of SR models. A pity, as they were nearly the right length for the Midland units, but short for the SR version (like most of their coaches - only the full brake and maroon suburban coaches* were near correct). We got a 'Schools' (a rough approximation) and an E2 from Trix**, an R1, a rebuilt WC and an EMU from Dublo and an L1 and air-smoothed BoB from Tri-ang. There were already a Tri-ang EMU and utility van dating from the mid fifties. * Not the SR version of the latter of course, as these were all on the long underframe. ** This always struck me as undernourished even for 1/80 scale. Not having one (A gap in the collection!) I have never been able to confirm this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 I can't see where the maroon livery came from. AFAIK all the BR built multiple units were in green. . The Eastern Region class 309s were painted maroon on delivery, and of course there were the Glasgow Blue Train EMUs. http://s880.photobucket.com/user/peter_f55/media/Rail/BR/emu309627.jpg.html https://www.flickr.com/photos/tobester_35/1879607722/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I seem to remember that the early electrics out of Euston in the 1950s on the Watford service were maroon but i think they were the LNWR Oerlikon units!!!. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Here you can see the same chassis block for the A4 and Duchess. When you look at the A4 you can see the recess where the Duchess cylinder mounting goes and where a plastic spacer is used on the rear part of its own valve gear. On the Duchess chassis casting directly behind the valve gear is the now open casting where the A4 gear is fitted. Using this casting for the A4 chassis did actually lift the body slightly which was needed for the Dublo one to align the cab roof with the tender cowl. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I was working in Patricks Toy Shop in Fulham when HD shut down. Wrenn were outing the EMUs at the now silly price of about 10/6d for the driving trailers and something like £4/19/11 for the motor coaches. Mr.Patrick wouldn't order any so I ended up buying some from Hobby Supplies opposite Chiswick Station. Mr.P did however let me order a HD AL1 which also cost £4/19/11!! That was in an HD box but was supplied by Wrenn. There was also a little shop on the corner of Battersea High Street and Battersea Park Road that had a good stock of HD, presumably bought in from Wrenn, but it was all 3-rail. Being about 13 at the time on paper round money, I could never afford to stock up on the stuff! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted April 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 20, 2016 After Wrenn started production of the previous HD stuff some HD items were still in stock. I remember being shown the Wrenn version of the 8F goods set (Still boxed) in a model shop shortly after the Wrenn takeover The loco had the castings modified to show "Wrenn" but the wagons were still marked "Hornby Dublo" Don't ask me what couplers were fitted! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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