************* Presents?

[rockershovel]

I have a long-standing connection with motorcycle track racing; I raced at one time, and now my son races and I have some involvement with organising. We've become involved in Flat Track in the past year or two, a quasi-commercial hybrid of motocross and speedway.

 

The organisers clearly intend to make money and promote their business interests, although to what extent they succeed is a matter for them. The track operators aren't charities. A handful of the riders (probably about 5%) have various commercial interests. I can't believe that anyone is getting rich from it.

 

So what do we get for our entry money, which isn't cheap by some standards but reasonable by others? Mostly, a well-run, slickly presented meeting at a (usually) good venue. The meetings depend on volunteers, who seem willing enough and at least, the club doesn't seem to have more than the usual problems with them.

 

The whole thing seem to me, to be a balance between varying interests which aren't necessarily compatible, producing an outcome acceptable to most; race meetings to an acceptable format, attracting entries and spectators. You might wrangle on indefinitely about the ins and outs of all this, but to what end?

 

I went to the Peterborough Show and enjoyed it. It was, after all, the only show in town. Traders were promoting themselves and apparently doing some business. Crowds were quite large and the catering, no worse than I tend to expect at such events. I was happy enough and I'd pay to attend another one.

 

I have to admit, I wouldn't call a child Dakota Dibben, but that's between him and his parents. My daughter had schoolfriends called Chelsea Bunn and Theresa Green, after all.

Edited March 1, 2017 by rockershovel

[Chris M]

I think it matters because, as I stated before, sole traders must put their name and address on all business communications and an advertising poster is almost certainly a business communication. Slightly off subject, to stay within the law all traders at a model railway exhibition must clearly show their business name and address on the stand and I'm sure that doesn't happen at every exhibition regardless of whether it is organised by a club or business.

 

Maybe someone should suggest that the proprietor of the exhibitions in question checks the rules on this. Also maybe all model railway exhibition organisers should ensure the rule regarding showing business name and address is followed.

[cromptonnut]

I have to admit, I wouldn't call a child Dakota Dibben, but that's between him and his parents. My daughter had schoolfriends called Chelsea Bunn and Theresa Green, after all.

 

This article from 2009 may provide some insight.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2011/sep/11/young-politicians-youth-of-Britain

 

I went to the Reigate exhibition, as it's only a few miles from where I live.  Apart from the lack of advertising banners on the road and a concern about a bottleneck to the stage (which could have been avoided with a little stand reorganisation) plus the heat in the hall (venue problem, not organiser's fault) I was quite happy with what I saw.  I did introduce myself to DD on his stand in the corner as an RMWebber and he seemed a pleasant enough chap to me, although there wasn't really anything of interest for me at present on his stand.

 

When it comes to visiting shows my decision on whether to return are based on the quality of what's there and the inconvenience of getting there (ie is it local enough to drive and is there good parking, or is it 5 trains and a replacement bus), not necessarily who's running it, and based on that I wouldn't have a hesitation in going back should there be one another year, or in that case any other DD shows.  But again, a DD show elsewhere may be different to the Reigate show so again you can't blanket say all DD shows are great or rubbish.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by cromptonnut

[bbishop]

I think it matters because, as I stated before, sole traders must put their name and address on all business communications and an advertising poster is almost certainly a business communication. Slightly off subject, to stay within the law all traders at a model railway exhibition must clearly show their business name and address on the stand and I'm sure that doesn't happen at every exhibition regardless of whether it is organised by a club or business.

 

Maybe someone should suggest that the proprietor of the exhibitions in question checks the rules on this. Also maybe all model railway exhibition organisers should ensure the rule regarding showing business name and address is followed.

 

Chris,

 

Names and addresses on stands is a Kent thing, may not apply elsewhere.

 

Bill

 

 

[Chris M]

The rules apply to the whole of England, not just the fiefdom of Kent.

[chris p bacon]

The rules apply to the whole of England, not just the fiefdom of Kent.

 

Having been a sole trader in the past, can you point me towards this rule please.

[Torper]

Slightly off subject, to stay within the law all traders at a model railway exhibition must clearly show their business name and address on the stand

 

 

I'd be interested to see the rule too.  If it is indeed the case, it is seldom observed.  Names on stand maybe, addresses no.  I used to exhibit regularly at local farmers markets; like the vast majority of other traders there, I had my trading name on public display, but not my address, although the latter was available on my leaflets.  Very much the same applies to traders I've seen at model railway exhibitions - while addresses are readily available on request, they're not generally displayed on the stand or if they are, they're done in such  a way as not to be readily visible.

 

Carping on about possible trading standards technicalities that may or may not exist and that very few other people seem to observe does seem to be verging on the personal.

 

DT

Edited March 1, 2017 by Torper

[Chris M]

I'd be interested to see the rule too.  If it is indeed the case, it is seldom observed.  Names on stand maybe, addresses no.  I used to exhibit regularly at local farmers markets; like the vast majority of other traders there, I had my trading name on public display, but not my address, although the latter was available on my leaflets.  Very much the same applies to traders I've seen at model railway exhibitions - while addresses are readily available on request, they're not generally displayed on the stand or if they are, they're done in such  a way as not to be readily visible.

 

Carping on about possible trading standards technicalities that very few other people seem to observe is really getting quite tedious.

 

DT

Not carping, just trying to pass on information that may or may not be of interest to small traders. Someone from trading standards told me about this but info can be found at https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/business-information-other/company-and-business-names .

[chris p bacon]

Thanks for the link, looking at it, it does not require a sole trader to have their names on advertising material but displayed within any premises they operate from or that customers can visit and on official documentation pertaining to invoicing/ordering. This is as I understood it from when a sole trader.

 

His advertising has a contact number and if you were attending who's to say he wouldn't give his contact details in full if asked.

 

Business names display

Where a sole trader or partnership carries on business under a name that is not that of the proprietor or partners their details must be fully disclosed to customers and suppliers in order to inform them who they are doing business with.

The information that is required to be disclosed is:

• the full name of the proprietor or of all of the partners
• an address at which the business can be contacted and have legal documents formally served on it

The required information must be:

• displayed in a prominent position in all business premises where customers and suppliers have access
• included legibly on all business documents:
  - letters
  - written orders for goods or services
  - invoices and receipts
  - written demands for payment
  - business websites (a requirement under the Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002)
• given immediately in writing to any customer or supplier who requests business details information

[TonyA]

I believe the legislation that Bill referred to applies to dealers in second hand goods based in or operating in Kent and Medway.

 

Details can be found here. http://www.kent.gov.uk/business/business-licences-and-registration/register-to-sell-second-hand-goods

 

As noted in the guide, similar legislation is in force in some other local authority areas.

 

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

Not carping, just trying to pass on information that may or may not be of interest to small traders. Someone from trading standards told me about this but info can be found at https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/business-information-other/company-and-business-names .

 

Perhaps it would be simpler, and quicker, to start by taking to court most of the shops in most towns I've ever visited where such information is not displayed on an easily seen sign you walk past when entering the premises.  Simple fact is that if you are looking to throw the book at someone make sure you aren't doing so from a glass house and that you aren't surrounded by houses made of glass.  I can dig out a load of receipts from some very well known and some not so well known model railway, and other, retailers trading under business names and none of their receipts I have ever seen tell me the name of the proprietor of  or any of the partners.  In fact you could add the John Lewis partnership - among many 'High Street' retailers - to that list and if it were to list all their partners I've no doubt one of their till receipts or one from Waitrose would be the best part of 100 yards long or use microscopically small print - or both.

 

Quite bluntly some aspects of this thread seem to be akin to counting the angels dancing on the head of a pins.  I have been going to model railway exhibitions for more years than I care to think about (over 50 of them) and I can't recall seeing any trader displaying their full name and address let alone the name of the proprietor (if different) although at least the company's name and address usually appeared in the exhibition guide (but not the name(s) of the owner(s).  If we are going to get down to - as I say - the business of counting angels on the heads of a pin let's extend it to include all the pins - i.e. all the exhibitions, all the trade stands at them, and all the organisers instead of just picking on one bloke who goes about things in a different way, runs some quite good little exhibitions and approaches the public in a rather different way which actually attracts non-hobbyists and families to a greater extent than some shows organised by clubs.

[dasatcopthorne]

Gentlemen

 

And I'm sure you all are.

 

I'm not quite sure why some posters seem always to want to go off subject. If you want to talk about other aspects, start your own thread.

 

This is about Model Railway Show being organised under spurious names, some of which don't exist. As in some advertised as being by clubs.

 

I've met Dekota and he's a pleasant guy. However, he has followed this thread from early on and he must think that the world is against him. Also he doesn't seem to have learnt from it. Like Reigate / Malden Presents. Why not use the suggestion above DD Enterprises ?

 

I do still have a problem with shows organised purely for profit and not by a Model Railway Club. Meaning none of the income is ever likely to go near supporting any Club.

 

Dave.

[chris p bacon]

Gentlemen

 

And I'm sure you all are.

 

I'm not quite sure why some posters seem always to want to go off subject. If you want to talk about other aspects, start your own thread.

 

This is about Model Railway Show being organised under spurious names, some of which don't exist. As in some advertised as being by clubs.

 

I've met Dekota and he's a pleasant guy. However, he has followed this thread from early on and he must think that the world is against him. Also he doesn't seem to have learnt from it. Like Reigate / Malden Presents. Why not use the suggestion above DD Enterprises ?

 

I do still have a problem with shows organised purely for profit and not by a Model Railway Club. Meaning none of the income is ever likely to go near supporting any Club.

 

Dave.

Threads will always flow like a conversation, trying to make posters stick to a script is nigh on impossible.

 

 

I've no idea who the chap is but he's spotted a gap in the market and has decided to fill it, surely promoting the hobby has to be good for it whether by club or individual. I'm part of a club and we run a yearly exhibition and it is not an easy thing to do with a huge amount of risk attached. The main way of mitigating the risk is to get people through the door with advertising,  He has decided on a way of advertising his shows which you don't agree with, but as he is not doing anything illegal what is the real problem. 

 

There have been murmurs in the past from some that think the big club exhibitions like York, Warley etc can actually hurt smaller clubs as they dominate areas or times of the year and concentrate spending. I don't agree and think they're catering to some that just don't bother with small shows.

 

I would say that if you really aren't keen on private shows then try helping a local club to organise one in competition.

Edited March 2, 2017 by chris p bacon

[Georgeconna]

Surely if a club attends one of these events they are given enough expenses to enable a contribution to their club (Is is asked of normally?). Plus the fact they get to advertise their club and benefit from recruiting additional members without having the need to actually stage a show where they could be subject to a Minus balance sheet with the large overheads to stage these.

 

On the Disposable cups. They probably were disposed of a the end of the day so you can rest easy.

 

There is no harm if these are washed and reusing some of these items. People are far too used to throwing things away after single use.

 

I must admit there is a plot for a novel somewhere in this thread!

 

Intriguing reading indeed!

[cromptonnut]

You have to remember Reigate is a very special place.

 

In most normal towns, if cups got low you'd just send someone out to the nearest pound shop to pick up a stack or two.  There was total uproar in the town when Poundworld wanted to open in the high street as it would 'lower the tone'.  It was only after some very heated debates that the local council "reluctantly" allowed them to open in the town as there was really no legal basis for them not to - seemingly an empty retail unit was better than a 'low brow' shop such as Poundworld.

[Dagworth]

Surely if a club attends one of these events they are given enough expenses to enable a contribution to their club (Is is asked of normally?). Plus the fact they get to advertise their club and benefit from recruiting additional members without having the need to actually stage a show where they could be subject to a Minus balance sheet with the large overheads to stage these.

That's not how expenses work, expenses is the replacement by the exhibition of the money it has cost the exhibitor to attend the exhibition. The exhibitor does not make money out of exhibiting and generally doesn't even ask for the full cost of what the exhibition has cost to attend. That's why it narks that other people are making money for themselves out of the generosity of exhibitors.

[chris p bacon]

That's why it narks that other people are making money for themselves out of the generosity of exhibitors.

I assume from that, those that are 'narked' know what's been paid to exhibitors. 

[298]

Surely if a club attends one of these events they are given enough expenses to enable a contribution to their club (Is is asked of normally?). Plus the fact they get to advertise their club and benefit from recruiting additional members without having the need to actually stage a show where they could be subject to a Minus balance sheet with the large overheads to stage these.

 

 

In addition to Dagworth's post, there is often a reciprocal agreement where a club whose layout has been invited will offer a space for the host to bring one of their exhibits (either a club layout or one from one of its members)- advantages are your punters get to see something new, the hospitality is returned and expenses and costs are equalized.

 

Obviously this doesn't apply to every layout or exhibition, but where is the opportunity for a commercial show to give something back into the hobby instead of just taking money out...?

[Crofton]

There must be an end to this saga somewhere!!

[phil-b259]

You have to remember Reigate is a very special place.

 

In most normal towns, if cups got low you'd just send someone out to the nearest pound shop to pick up a stack or two.  There was total uproar in the town when Poundworld wanted to open in the high street as it would 'lower the tone'.  It was only after some very heated debates that the local council "reluctantly" allowed them to open in the town as there was really no legal basis for them not to - seemingly an empty retail unit was better than a 'low brow' shop such as Poundworld.

I have heard much the same said about Tunbridge Wells when Poundland wanted to open up there.

[Rivercider]

There must be an end to this saga somewhere!!

No, I hope it keeps going, at some stage this thread will advertise an exhibition close enough for me to visit that I had not previously heard of, 

 

 

cheers

[Ravenser]

In addition to Dagworth's post, there is often a reciprocal agreement where a club whose layout has been invited will offer a space for the host to bring one of their exhibits (either a club layout or one from one of its members)- advantages are your punters get to see something new, the hospitality is returned and expenses and costs are equalized.

 

Obviously this doesn't apply to every layout or exhibition, but where is the opportunity for a commercial show to give something back into the hobby instead of just taking money out...?

 

Such "reciprocal arrangements" - the "show for a show" system , which I gather is rife in Scotland - are pernicious and to the disbenefit of most of the stakeholders in the hobby. This is not an argument in favour of club shows, but an argument against them

 

Firstly, the paying spectator is disadvantaged because the layouts which benefit from these "you scratch my back , I'll scratch yours" deals tend to be poorer quality. Scottish experience seems to be that this system results in shows containing plenty of mediocre club layouts which are not there because they are good, but because Club B is taking advantage of its guaranteed slot at Club A's show to give an outing to a layout which isn't really good enough to get an invitation on its own merits. That's not good for the punter, and it's not particularly good for the hobby either. Don't we want our best stuff in the public shop window??

 

Secondly  it creates a protected niche for mediocre layouts, which are guaranteed a place in the sun so that two club treasurers can "line their pockets", rather than on their merit as modelling. I'm not sure how that benefits the hobby.

 

Thirdly, it seriously disadvantages the considerable number of modellers who build exhibition layouts as private individuals . They are partly frozen out , and passed over by shows in favour poorer-quality layouts which happen to be owned by a club. "Its not what you know, it's who you know " is not a terribly attractive proposition, and the idea that good layouts by good modellers won't be exhibited because they are not built by a club group isn't something that warms my heart.

 

Fourthly - it is very likely to disadvantage the people behind the layouts concerned . If the layout is not being paid expenses, it's  a near certainty that the people taking it to the show won't be getting their travel expenses covered. Effectively they are being made to treat their travel and other costs as a donation to club funds - probably made under a degree of moral blackmail about their duty to help the club - and that's not good for anyone either.  Scottish shows don't even feed their exhibitors - more money for club funds!

 

(And as for club members being expected to exhibit their own layouts as part of such a deal - if anyone ever suggests I ought to take my layout to a show at my own expense so that a club can get a free layout at a show as a quid pro quo  in some backroom deal they will get a very curt response)

 

The only people this wretched lurk favours is club treasurers.

 

It needs to be said that a majority of active modellers - probably a substantial majority - are not members of clubs. A majority of club members are not actively involved with club layouts. What's being suggested is effectively that a fairly small group within the hobby should be the exclusive financial beneficiaries of the exhibition circuit, and any money it generates.

 

And I remain extremely sceptical that anyone is actually making much money from a model railway exhibition - other than the venues. There is no crock of gold at the end of this rainbow - other than for the venue owner. I doubt if Doncaster, Peterborough , Ally Pally or Gaydon shows actually make any significant profit for Warners or Hornby Mag. I reckon Dakota Dibben will have been lucky to make the price of a new RTR loco out of his efforts at Maldon.

 

But Doncaster Racecourse, the East of England Showground,  Alexandra Palace, and the Motor Museum at Gaydon will have taken many tens of thousands of pounds out of the hobby and given absolutely nothing back - and the silence on here  is deafening. (And the Plume School, Maldon and Reigate Scholl will have made far, far more money than Mr Dibben out of his shows and the hobby, with no risk, and no effort)  

 

The moral indignation is so very selective. Why such shaking of heads at a small show of pretty good quality layouts in Maldon for "taking money out of the hobby" when Southend show - where all the profits go out of the hobby to the Council - passes entirely uncriticised?? Why is it okay for exhibitors to "line the pockets" of Southend Borough Council and Brighton City Council - but the fact that a number of people have happily exhibited at Dakota Dibben's exhibitions is a matter of sucking of teeth . Unlike the Councils he's actually in the hobby

[t-b-g]

Reading through the thread, I am not sure that there is any great groundswell of opinion against shows arranged on a commercial basis, as long as that is what they are advertised as.

 

Any objections seem to be against the idea of an individual putting on an exhibition and making it look as if it is for the benefit of a model railway club.

 

Going back to a show like Doncaster, this is a railway town, with a great railway history but for several years, had no model railway exhibition. I won't go over the reasons now but the last time one was put on, it didn't end well for the club involved.

 

Now, at least, we have a show and it is stewarded by members of the Doncaster Model railway Club, who I understand gain some financial reward for the club for doing so. In my view, that is better than no show at all and I am not sure that the club would ever have had the financial resources to hire the racecourse. Alexandra Palace is, in effect, a show organised in part by The Model Railway Club with financial; backing from BRM/Warners (I hope I have got that right as I am not 100% sure).

 

Would I prefer it if the Doncaster show was purely a traditional club show? Yes I would. Would I rather have a commercial show than none at all? Yes again. 

[Ravenser]

......

 

Now, at least, we have a show and it is stewarded by members of the Doncaster Model Railway Club, who I understand gain some financial reward for the club for doing so. In my view, that is better than no show at all and I am not sure that the club would ever have had the financial resources to hire the racecourse. Alexandra Palace is, in effect, a show organised in part by The Model Railway Club with financial; backing from BRM/Warners (I hope I have got that right as I am not 100% sure).

 

Would I prefer it if the Doncaster show was purely a traditional club show? Yes I would. Would I rather have a commercial show than none at all? Yes again. 

 

My understanding is that Ally Pally is organised by Warners, but with the  provision of layouts , societies, and much stewarding subcontracted to the MRC. I gather fire stewards are now provided by the venue. The MRC obviously also has a substantial stand at the show.

 

I believe that one of the local clubs (possibly Market Deeping) helps with Peterborough, and presumably the arrangement is mutually beneficial.

 

If Warner's had not got involved, I seriously doubt that there would have been a big model railway exhibition in London - or anywhere else south of Coventry - this century. That would have been damaging to the hobby in a large part of the country

 

Much of the recent discussion in this thread has been provoked by the exhibition at Maldon last weekend, and to a lesser extent that at Reigate. The thread was revived by the OP at #152, in an open attempt to discourage people reading RMWeb from going to those events and the show at Rye - see post154.

 

None of those 3 events was advertised in any way as being organised by an MRC - the only reason for  encouraging prospective visitors and exhibitors to shun the events was that any profits would  go to someone other than a model railway club (Even though nobody seems to have any qualms about either the Plume School or Southend Council taking money out of the hobby)

 

As I've posted elsewhere http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120345-exhibition-at-maldon-25th-feb/  it was very noticeable that a number of layouts came from local clubs or local club members, and their operators were very prominently wearing club sweatshirts. 3 or 4 local clubs were involved, and flyers for 4 or 5 local shows were in evidence. There are no other shows in Essex at this time of year.

 

Given that the Maldon event was supported by quite a few of the Essex  modelling community , including a number of clubs and club members, I'm a little surprised by the high-minded efforts of some club modellers  from other areas to discourage it in the name of protecting the local modelling community, and especially the local clubs. Evidently several Essex clubs and their members don't know what's good for them, and need to be reminded by outsiders

[Ravenser]

That's not how expenses work, expenses is the replacement by the exhibition of the money it has cost the exhibitor to attend the exhibition. The exhibitor does not make money out of exhibiting and generally doesn't even ask for the full cost of what the exhibition has cost to attend. That's why it narks that other people are making money for themselves out of the generosity of exhibitors.

 

I've exhibited my layout at Gaydon. I and my operator got our petrol money, overnight accommodation to a good standard, with breakfast , and lunch at the show. There was a modest after-show reception . Considering the layout isn't that big, I thought that was generous, and I don't feel exploited. And I'm not sure HM are making a profit out of Gaydon - I suspect losses might be viewed as marketing promotion expenses

 

In contrast when, a good many years ago, I helped operate a club layout at the Model Engineering Exhibition I got no travel expenses and had to pay for my own lunch in a commercial cafeteria.

 

(That event originated as the Model Engineer Exhibition, promoted I believe by Model Engineer magazine. The company behind it, Percival Marshall, made a very large contribution to the hobby in the first half of the 20th century. And it's currently organised by Meridienne Exhibitions. Nobody criticises the Model Engineering Exhibition in the way Ally Pally and Doncaster have been sniped at over the years.)

 

I also remember Hornby Magazine's layout appearing at Southwold show a few years back, which raises interesting questions about exploitation and "what do they put back into the hobby?" (Black Country Blues anyone?)