Paragon Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Hi all, I've been looking out for an Air Piped liveried brakevan as I have a 'standard' bauxite example and would like an 'exotic' one to break up the monotony, and having made much use of Paul Bartlett's exceptional site to do some research I have a few questions regarding their correct usage: -Some of the vehicles have certain 'to work with' instructions, I.e. Hopper circuits whilst also being labelled as under the care of the engineers department, what was their purpose in what I presume (possibly wrongly) were MGR workings? Was it for a required guard or as part of a wider trial/ specific purpose, I assume trial possibly incorrectly on the basis of the engineers department tag being on some as well as the circuit working instruction... So would I be able to have a HAA rake and a Piped van on the rear and if so what purpose would it fulfill? I do recall reading somewhere about a Derbyshire based example of an MGR working which needed to run with provision for a guard in order for them to operate a Xing on a route to a colliery but I may be mistaken, were there many (any?) MGR workings which would have contained a brake van in the consist? - piggybacking on this point, were there any 'required' workings for Air Piped vans as in my limited wisdom I've deduced that they were erstwhile found principally on unfitted/ mixed rakes and I thought they were made somewhat redundant by fully fitted air brake rakes or was it simply to convey a guard? I can see some where found in electrification and engineers liveries so I assume some requirement for them but on what basis I do not know... Could somebody clarify with regards to the regulations for me please, I know it's fairly cheeky to ask but even being pointed in the right direction of any literature or such that I can refer to would be brill. Thanks in advance, Paragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I am sure someome with more info will be along directly, but in the meantime I have some thoughts. You are correct about air-piped brake vans on the MGR services from Denby, as here https://www.flickr.com/photos/33751709@N05/14535434602/in/photolist-bzekiZ-dnJWju-g6qHEG-o9CBvi-97zstL-9tukLM-9tMK6g-o9rUiq-udXbkp-c8TBWo-qRevjf-c8TQVG-9zhudF-mMVewt-f944yy-aaNPwo-c8TGBh-gyFadz-eiw3tV-e3HaDN-5KdzqS-dfUtBU-t76Lt5-rZHXPA Some of the MGR trains to Fiddlers Ferry required a long propelling move at Warrington, notably those from Cumbria and a I have seen photos with brake vans on the rear of those trains, as here https://www.flickr.com/photos/75784477@N08/26836064010/in/photolist-oZyrCo-FTDUt6-dNdkBV-fXQBTQ-GTpQSN-xnTHjG-rhWLjH-sa6XG9-srvvqQ-75KuGi-aKDrji-e9KWVv edit There is also a requirement for a brake van to be provided for the guard when certain classes of dangerous goods are conveyed. This applied in the Speedlink era for some tanks received from the continent for Barry Docks. Hence there was regularly a CAR brake van on services from Dover - Willesden - A D Junction - Barry Docks route as here https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/11292975313/in/photolist-pqBLfB-duCk9a-dYwfZH-oQSfKx-mhwo5u-kq4Tc2-icVs7V-AT54UU-e6W772-q374Re-qmwe9z-cyiDLd-CmcYHv-duHU9d-atQsLt-bYHYs3-x2hjS3 cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 Thanks Kevin. Jon (Paragon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 You asked for literature references, these should assist Gent E (1999) British Railways Brake vans and ballast ploughs. Pub. By HMRS 92pp. ISBN 0 – 902835 – 16 –5. and Monk-Steel, David (2011) Merry-go-round on the rails. HMRS publishing, Butterley Station, Derbys. 196 pages ISBN 978-0-902835-30-6. Many reasons why brake vans continued in use. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 Thanks Paul, that is invaluable as I'm more than happy to do the legwork rather than fall back on the generosity of others to provide me with the information, I get quite nervous when asking things of people and I don't want to try anyone's patience! Jon Paragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 If you want exotic then the propelling vans for either Seaham Colliery or Sunderland, South Dock Petrofina would fill the void! Then there was one in full Loadhaul livery! Hope this helps? Mark Saunders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 IIRC, Class 20-hauled MGR trains retained a 'van, as the cab of the loco wasn't fitted with the requisite brake valve that the guard could operate. Dover Town Yard retained a small Pool of 'vans for use on trains conveying dangerous chemicals, as Kevin suggested. Whilst none were in the 'yellow panel' livery, there was one in RFS livery, that had previously been used to accompany trains of London Transport stock to or from one of the former BR works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Yellow-panelled CAR brake van on an interesting short train here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87703-Bachmann-announce-ffafga-early-container-flats/?p=1668455 And another one at Stratford, in 1985, "TO WORK WITH AIR BRAKE TRAINS ONLY" on the tail end of what is clearly not an air-braked train: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Thanks all for the above replies, guys, I have incidentally acquired an RFS liveried example and was wondering what it was for... Anyway, after careful revision I've come across a few oddities, in one case a ferry tank speedlink consist which had a guards van at both ends to comply ( I assume) with barrier regulations and also to facilitate run around operations, I assumed this to be chemical tanks, but as Mark has pointed out there was also a precedent for barake vans to work with fuel workings although I think in this case it was an operational requirement rather than a barrier issue. Thanks all Paragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Thanks all for the above replies, guys, I have incidentally acquired an RFS liveried example and was wondering what it was for... Anyway, after careful revision I've come across a few oddities, in one case a ferry tank speedlink consist which had a guards van at both ends to comply ( I assume) with barrier regulations and also to facilitate run around operations, I assumed this to be chemical tanks, but as Mark has pointed out there was also a precedent for barake vans to work with fuel workings although I think in this case it was an operational requirement rather than a barrier issue. Thanks all Paragon The RFS liveried one worked with the RFS liveried VDA's converted to adaptors to work with underground stock moving to and from RFS Doncaster. Mark Saunders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Thanks all for the above replies, guys, I have incidentally acquired an RFS liveried example and was wondering what it was for... Anyway, after careful revision I've come across a few oddities, in one case a ferry tank speedlink consist which had a guards van at both ends to comply ( I assume) with barrier regulations and also to facilitate run around operations, I assumed this to be chemical tanks, but as Mark has pointed out there was also a precedent for barake vans to work with fuel workings although I think in this case it was an operational requirement rather than a barrier issue. Thanks all Paragon There is a brake van at each end of these ammonia tanks, https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidhayes/5358116206/in/photolist-9atKgU-onsAH7-oc4mXW-6PrLnS-6J7DRZ-cHG7FS-fpdoFP-bD9H8V-jDkhYk-7g6dFb-fz2KWa-dQr1iJ-dNaSzR-dK8ohr-f28Q7R-wybcuh-74Bgeb-dpGS17-hQc61j-cUt6AC-87ZsMM-7QZSc6-ahLstf-dhw2oy-knEpnG-GNPzcS-9hnbmx-dNima7-pUpBy9-pHbajH-5ntYgs-4yWd4P-9rjp3Q-poWHjk-79Gc1L-3KQ7g2-79G2gw-f12q7H-deourK-7RGuJX-6W1y1X-aZvXJF-ejXeew-8SWQye-7RGwDB-7RGz5M-6d687V-48doA3-ke4px-cpa22j We used to get similar trains of liquified anhydrous ammonia from Haverton Hill arriving at ICI Severnside, in later years air braked tanks were used with air piped brake vans and sometimes there was a brake van at each end which simplified things when reversing the train at Hallen Marsh and Severn Beach, cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 29, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2016 IIRC, Class 20-hauled MGR trains retained a 'van, as the cab of the loco wasn't fitted with the requisite brake valve that the guard could operate. IIRC it was early-mid '80s before the 20s had the emergency brake valve put in? once fitted, then the guard could ride in the cab of the rear 20 of the pair (I presume all cl.20 hauled MGRs were double-headed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold AWM Posted June 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2016 I can confirm a Railfreight livery CAR Van with Coal Sector markings that I photographed in York Wagon Works in the early 90's. It was deemed beyond economic repair and so I had the complete air and vac brake pipe installation off it to install on the 'Dutch' Livery ZTO van that I bought at the same time for heritage railway use. Incidentally, this van was originally vac. fitted, not just piped, like most BR Std. vans were of course. If required I can look out some photo's of the CAR van for you. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippel Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Hi there, back in the eighties the MGR trains to Fidlers Ferry from the Lancashire coalfields (Bold/Sutton Manor/Parkside/Bickershaw/Abram) would have a brake van with narrow footboards so that they could fit between the daleks in Fidlers. The principal reason was so they could propel (and thus not need a draw-back loco) between Arpley Junction and Walton Old Junction. The Cumbrian MGR trains should have had them too, but sometimes they didn't so the 08 on Target 16 would get used as a draw-back. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 Thanks all. Much appreciated. Paragon (Jon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I am sure someome with more info will be along directly, but in the meantime I have some thoughts. You are correct about air-piped brake vans on the MGR services from Denby, as here https://www.flickr.com/photos/33751709@N05/14535434602/in/photolist-bzekiZ-dnJWju-g6qHEG-o9CBvi-97zstL-9tukLM-9tMK6g-o9rUiq-udXbkp-c8TBWo-qRevjf-c8TQVG-9zhudF-mMVewt-f944yy-aaNPwo-c8TGBh-gyFadz-eiw3tV-e3HaDN-5KdzqS-dfUtBU-t76Lt5-rZHXPA Did the Denby MGR trains have a brake van at both ends for the gaurd to drop down and close the crossing gates? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted July 2, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2, 2016 The Redcar to redmire train had a van on from Tees to redmire and back this was because of a propelling move at Northallerton and for the guard to close crossing gates on the branch Nuclear trains had a van right up to DRS taking over the services in 1998 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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