The omnipresent Western Region

[edcayton]

A bit chicken and egg, but the popularity of WR layouts has meant that the manufacturers have produced just about every class of loco that could be found on the prototype, which makes the lines easier to model. Where are the Johnson 0-4-4 tank, the C12 or even the N7?

 

In addition lots of ex-GW loco's were painted in lined express green, and the odd chocolate and cream through carriage could be seen. Most of the stations were pretty too. Before the rtr revolution the WR was in a similar situation with regard to kits.

 

Ed

[Dunsignalling]

I think the determination of BR HQ to bring the WR into line with everyone else must have been a fairly strong force for demoralisation in the mid '60's onward, and recall the phrase "professional iconoclast" being used by one writer to describe the new senior manager of the region installed at the time. From the platform end the condition of the locos was often clearly very poor.

 

Corporate blue livery and the premature end of the hydraulics seemed to finally finish off any sense of independence and the old traditions.

 

John.

Don't you believe it. The erstwhile GWR/WR may now look much more like the other regions (and electrification will strengthen that impression) but the time-honoured WR determination to do things differently (sometimes just for the sake of it) continued well into Railtrack days and still manifests itself occasionally even now.

 

John

[melmerby]

I tend to populate my layout with locomotives that I've seen running on preserved lines; from a quick survey of preservation websites, there are about 140 to 150 preserved GWR steam locomotives to 90 each for the LMS and Southern.  It seems likely that many more people today will be exposed to a GWR locomotive in steam than one of any other company.  The Western Region did have some concessions under BR, such as the chocolate and cream coaches when the standard was maroon, which helped the GWR live on, in a sense, after nationalisation while the other constituent companies merged more quickly.

The choc/cream livery was a re-introduction in 1956 when BR gave the regions a little more control mid 50s. The SR started painting coaches green again.

The rest of BR went for a newer Maroon colour

Before this the coaches had been painted variously in the two version of red and cream (or Crimson Lake for secondary stock)

 

AFAIK No GWR coach was painted chocolate and cream in BR days, only Mk1s.

 

Keith

[brianusa]

From the replies to this topic it would appear that there are a number of GW enthusiasts, including those on other GW themed sites, that RM follows the trend of modellers and prototype railway enthusiasts closely.  That's not to say that those who follow the products of Darlington or Ashford aren't as enthusiastic of their local railways, rather that there are more who are GW fans.  There is always an affinity for ones 'home town. railway which in my case included the Southern at 72D, but they were invariably overshadowed by those from 83D!

 

Brian.

[Clearwater]

Don't you believe it. The erstwhile GWR/WR may now look much more like the other regions (and electrification will strengthen that impression) but the time-honoured WR determination to do things differently (sometimes just for the sake of it) continued well into Railtrack days and still manifests itself occasionally even now.

 

John

I was in Cardiff on Monday. The station still has benches that say gwr and BR (w). Also, the preserved movement benefits from Barry's location and its predominance of ex-gwr types giving the gwr, due, prominence in preserved lines. My comparatively local Epping / ongar line frequently operates just ex-gwr types

 

David

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Also goes back to the time when Felix Pole was the GM - he knew the value of good quality publicity which has lingered down through the years.

[cary hill]

 

 

AFAIK No GWR coach was painted chocolate and cream in BR days, only Mk1s.

 

Keith

 

(Some) Ex GWR Restaurant Cars ?

[28XX]

For the novices reading this, the GWR had its own involvement with heavy-heavy industrial grime in the Black Country and South Wales.

[Zomboid]

For the novices reading this, the GWR had its own involvement with heavy-heavy industrial grime in the Black Country and South Wales.

Not commonly modelled though. The clichéd west country branch line or interchangeable 4-6-0s on a main line is the GWR/WR that's unrepresentatively popular.

And I suspect that's because a Devon/ Cornish holiday is just nice. Who wouldn't want to represent that? The LSWR didn't get to the really big resorts, and you can't open so many boxes of LSWR/Southern locos and stock as has been possible over the years with the western.

 

The GWR was enormous, but i could count on the fingers of one foot how many models of the West Mids GW I've seen. And the Thames Valley & South Wales is hardly any more common in my experience...

[chrisf]

AFAIK No GWR coach was painted chocolate and cream in BR days, only Mk1s.

 

Keith

 

We have covered this before.  When the BR version of choc-cream was introduced there were hardly any Mk 1 catering vehicles.  Until these came on stream, therefore, it was necessary to deck out GW design examples, which remained in front line service for a few years.  The Red Dragon, a prestige business train, had to wait for its chocolate and cream Mk 1 diners until January 1962 - just three months before the decision to abandon chocolate and cream.  Other GW design stock to receive chocolate and cream in BR days included slip coaches [because the Cornish Riviera slipped at Westbury until quite late on], the Super Saloons used on Ocean Liner boat trains and other VIP work, two Hawksworth BCKs also reserved for VIP work [7372 and 7377, which not only escaped blood and custard but survive in preservation], another VIP saloon W9005W which receoved an early set of B4 bogies,  three Hawksworth BCKs converted to slip coaches in 1958 and later used on branch line work on the West Country, some inspection saloons and the dynamometer car converted from a Hawksworth SK in 1961.  Finally IIRC there was a Hawksworth auto trailer used by the Derby research centre which is preserved at Butterley but not in choc-cream.

 

A full list, which the above probably isn't, may be found in the dropbox bit of Robert Carroll's Yahoo group.

 

Chris

[bike2steam]

In response to post numer 25, all thanks to Dai Woodham, but don't forget the Southern Region had it's green coaches for longer than the Western mark 1 repaints.

[Ozexpatriate]

Why are there so many Western Region/ GWR (I don't do steam or Big 4 terminology really) themed layouts?

It was pushed very hard commercially in 4mm model form post war is the straight answer.* The standardisation of the GWR meant that a relatively small number of models could supply a reasonably realistic model railway.

* And not just with rolling stock, but with lineside kits too. (I'm thinking of the likes of Ratio.)

 

And pragmatically speaking that is why I ended up choosing the Great Western, despite never having lived in Britain. 

 

But I happily stuck with that theme - though I did allow a "west country" flexibility that includes the ex-LSWR SR and the S&DJR to coexist - but have never really wavered from GWR at the heart of it - for many of the reasons stated already including the historical longevity and consistency of the company, the engineering innovations (I don't so much mean inventions, but practical engineering, like standardization, manufacturability and infrastructure) and the scenic opportunities the landscape it passes through presents.

 

Despite the cliché, BLT still means bacon, lettuce and tomato to me. The GWR was more than that.

[28XX]

Not commonly modelled though. The clichéd west country branch line or interchangeable 4-6-0s on a main line is the GWR/WR that's unrepresentatively popular.

And I suspect that's because a Devon/ Cornish holiday is just nice. Who wouldn't want to represent that? The LSWR didn't get to the really big resorts, and you can't open so many boxes of LSWR/Southern locos and stock as has been possible over the years with the western.

 

The GWR was enormous, but i could count on the fingers of one foot how many models of the West Mids GW I've seen. And the Thames Valley & South Wales is hardly any more common in my experience...

My Stourhampton layout may eventually help redress that balance.

[railsquid]

For the novices reading this, the GWR had its own involvement with heavy-heavy industrial grime in the Black Country and South Wales.

 

 

The GWR was enormous, but i could count on the fingers of one foot how many models of the West Mids GW I've seen. And the Thames Valley & South Wales is hardly any more common in my experience...

 

If it's any help I'm planning on dedicating part of my layout to a station not entirely unlike Birmingham Moor Street. Unfortunately it won't be a proper model and will take some very fictitious chronological liberties (among others assuming the GWR route to Wolverhampton stayed open as a diversionary route) so may disappoint, but I hope it will capture something of the (ex) GWR Midland route.

 

Despite spending many of my formative years in/near Birmingham I was never really aware of the former GWR main line there, it's been pretty much wiped off the map, though looking at videos of Snow Hill from the 1960s there was a fascinating variety of trains running.

[muddy water]

The locomotives were not renumbered when they came into British Railways. Also they retained their Brunswick green livery. Change the tender crest and you can run your engine from 1930 till 1960. Rather than buying multiply locos with different liveries. (class 90 electrics have had nearly 30 liveries in 30 years!)

[melmerby]

 Also they retained their Brunswick green livery.

Initially only top link passenger engines.

Mixed traffic were lined black

Goods locos/shunting tanks etc were plain black

However eventually BR(W)was even lining out tank engines that were plain green in GWR times!

 

Keith

[coachmann]

Another point in the Western Regions favour was it's continuing and unchanged presence into the 1960's. In major cities and towns where buses were ever so convenient, the local railways succumbed to closure in the mid 1950s or DMU operation from 1958.  Country areas where hardship remained a consideration were different, there remained a parallel universe particularly on the Western Region. Where I lived in a satellite town of Manchester, the ex LMS and LNER railway scene was dead by 1960 and Beeching still hadn't been heard of. But when I think back to 1960 - 1964 on the Western, it was like stepping into the past on some backwaters. Chocolate & cream or light & dark stone buildings were the first signs that we were in a different world. The western was always a journey of discovery and it might be difficult to imagine the magic of it today. However, I mustn't overlook the fact that the people speaking here of their experiences were all young people then and perhaps easily impressed by things that were sometimes not as elderly as we imagined.

[Edwardian]

Given the inherent superiority of All Things Swindon and the Great Western Way, there was serious support during the 1950s for allowing the Western Region to regain complete autonomy.  Fortunately for the sake of a unified system, Wrexit never happened.

[Andy Kirkham]

Apart from the self-evident (at least to a Bristolian such as myself) aesthetic supremacy of Great Western locos, there is the fact that the Great Western seems to have had a lot more branch lines for its size than most other companies, and so if you are constrained by your resources to model a branch line, the Western offers the most inspiration.

 

I think this can be explained by the geography of the areas it served. For instance the West of England is a long peninsula with a highly indented coastline. It would not have been possible to build a continuous coastal railway, so many of its ports and and holiday resorts had to be served by branches and the main line followed a mostly inland route. Conversely, where Western main lines did run near the sea, then the hinterland tended to be hilly, and any lines that penetrated these areas had to make use of dead-end valleys.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Re branch lines, some companies (especially the Midland Railway) were actively adverse to them, by joining them up to form through routes.

 

Examples: Little Eaton - Ripley extended to Butterley on the Ambergate - Pye Bridge line

                 Garsdale Road - Hawes had an end-on junction with the North Eastern

                 Fiskerton - Southwell extended to Mansfield

[melmerby]

Apart from the self-evident (at least to a Bristolian such as myself) aesthetic supremacy of Great Western locos, there is the fact that the Great Western seems to have had a lot more branch lines for its size than most other companies, and so if you are constrained by your resources to model a branch line, the Western offers the most inspiration.

 

I think this can be explained by the geography of the areas it served. For instance the West of England is a long peninsula with a highly indented coastline. It would not have been possible to build a continuous coastal railway, so many of its ports and and holiday resorts had to be served by branches and the main line followed a mostly inland route. Conversely, where Western main lines did run near the sea, then the hinterland tended to be hilly, and any lines that penetrated these areas had to make use of dead-end valleys.

A lot of the branch lines were built by (sometimes only notionally) independent companies which were only later taken into the GWR fold.

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

I think the determination of BR HQ to bring the WR into line with everyone else must have been a fairly strong force for demoralisation in the mid '60's onward, and recall the phrase "professional iconoclast" being used by one writer to describe the new senior manager of the region installed at the time. From the platform end the condition of the locos was often clearly very poor.

 

Corporate blue livery and the premature end of the hydraulics seemed to finally finish off any sense of independence and the old traditions.

 

John.

 

No - in many respects once the Ibbotson regime was forgotten the Region returned to many of its old ways albeit sometimes updated by very often still better than those of the lesser places - and that continued right up to the end (and some of us made darned sure that it did).  And some of us acted as disciples spreading the message and methods further afield - indeed even to another continent in my case.

[hmrspaul]

In response to post numer 25, all thanks to Dai Woodham, but don't forget the Southern Region had it's green coaches for longer than the Western mark 1 repaints.

Brought up on the Southern but with a line to the WR (Staines) I am always surprised at the idea that the WR had some sort of independence and difference. I know I am going OT but the SR was the different  region. My memory is that everything stock wise was green, and of course the third rail electrics were unique (I didn't get up north much!). The green was adopted by BR for multi units so it even spread to other regions (don't lets argue about shades PLEASE). The steam locos, which lasted much longer, were unusual - our local yard was shunted by a coffee pot on wheels (Q1) and the mainline by moving boxes with masses of green (unrebuilt Bulleid Pacifics - and they could really motor!). Now I'll admit for a while the WR was nice with its bright green locos, Pullman multiple Units (I wiped the entire class out of my Ian Allan combined volume one morning in an hour at Paddington)  but soon  the locos were absolutely dreadful. There wasn't the enthusiast cleaning that happened up north in 67-8, you had to be there to see what the last Halls etc looked like with their numbers scrawled large on the cab sides. To get back to the SR differences, our steam pickups were replaced by the gloriously individual electro diesels - even our diesels were unique and very capable with their huge hauls of oil to Birmingham and cement to Scotland. The SR even went on building Mark 1s years after the others finished - yes they put an electric motor under them but ...

 

Paul

[brianusa]

But I happily stuck with that theme - though I did allow a "west country" flexibility that includes the ex-LSWR SR and the S&DJR to coexist - but have never really wavered from GWR at the heart of it - for many of the reasons stated already including the historical longevity and consistency of the company, the engineering innovations (I don't so much mean inventions, but practical engineering, like standardization, manufacturability and infrastructure) and the scenic opportunities the landscape it passes through presents.

 

Despite the cliché, BLT still means bacon, lettuce and tomato to me. The GWR was more than that.

 

 

You've been here too long, Michael!

 

Brian.

[Zomboid]

Brought up on the Southern but with a line to the WR (Staines) I am always surprised at the idea that the WR had some sort of independence and difference. I know I am going OT but the SR was the different region.

Exactly. The others had their foibles, but the SR was truly unique...