The omnipresent Western Region

[The Stationmaster]

Exactly. The others had their foibles, but the SR was truly unique...

 

More like 'unique three times over' as in many respects it was still three different Pre-Group companies with some standardisation slapped on top of them but still with quite strong different identities in some respects in the three Divisions I think.  But in many respects all the regions had their differences from each other with very different working practices and methods in all sorts of areas of not only detail but general philosophy.  Not much f it was visible to non-railway folk of course (and quite a lot wasn't visible internally unless you were directly involved).

[bluebottle]

It was pushed very hard commercially in 4mm model form post war is the straight answer. The standardisation of the GWR meant that a relatively small number of models could supply a reasonably realistic model railway. Previously majority interest had focussed on the LMS and LNER in O gauge.

 

* And not just with rolling stock, but with lineside kits too. (I'm thinking of the likes of Ratio.) ...

 

Particularly the Ratio GWR cattle dock, which I've noticed at a few minor exhibitions, and, I think, on RMweb, on layouts purportedly representing non-Western locales. My self-imposed rule (learned the hard way) never to shoot the modeller who's only doing his best generally keeps things amicable. Nicely made kit, mate!

[Edwardian]

Well, this is slightly off-topic, because I have no particular interest in the Western Region, but the Great Western was my first, and is my most enduring, railway enthusiasm.

 

This is why - Kingswear, Tuesday, 29 July 1980; and, Bridgnorth, Saturday, 23 May 1981:

[Edwardian]

More like 'unique three times over' as in many respects it was still three different Pre-Group companies with some standardisation slapped on top of them but still with quite strong different identities in some respects in the three Divisions I think.  But in many respects all the regions had their differences from each other with very different working practices and methods in all sorts of areas of not only detail but general philosophy.  Not much f it was visible to non-railway folk of course (and quite a lot wasn't visible internally unless you were directly involved).

 

This, I think is a good point.  GW standard designs were introduced from the first years of the Twentieth Century.  That gave a 20-year lead on the other 3, which often failed to get into their stride in terms of their great standard designs until later.  The culmination of GW developments might, arguably said to be the Castle and the King, designs of the 1920s.  One might contrast that with the LMS and LNER, which seemed to reach the height of their powers in express passenger locos in the mid to late '30s.

 

A longer period of standard designs over a large company no doubt helped embed that essential GW image, plus the fact that the GW look was very, at first radically, different.  Yes, you can tell an Adam from a Johnson from a Dean, from a Stirling etc, but the contrasts between the designs of other railways are arguable not so stark as the contrast between the Churchward look and everything else, in which I include everything that ran before on the GW.  The GW style was standard, widespread and distinctive, and the style was very long-lived.

 

When it comes to infrastructure, again, the standard designs come early, turn of the century, and were widespread.  That said, in terms of architecture, much of the GW is, IMHO, best understood as a series of quite different companies, much in the way we think of the different styles of Grouping constituents.  The Berks & Hants had one style, the Berks & Hants extension, 20 years on, had another.  The Fighting Shrewsburys and the South Devon all have distinct styles.  

bCh

[melmerby]

This, I think is a good point.  GW standard designs were introduced from the first years of the Twentieth Century.  That gave a 20-year lead on the other 3, which often failed to get into their stride in terms of their great standard designs until later.  The culmination of GW developments might, arguably said to be the Castle and the King, designs of the 1920s.  One might contrast that with the LMS and LNER, which seemed to reach the height of their powers in express passenger locos in the mid to late '30s.

 

The LMS of course "caught up" when W.A. Stanier left Swindon for the LMS and injected a lot of "Western" into the LMS fleet, which was in need of a bout of "standardisation" itself.

His first design, the 2-6-0, was much inspired by the 43XX and was what happens when you "Westernise" a Crab!

The Black 5, 8F, Princess & Coronations all owe something to the Western way of doing things.

 

The GWR itself felt no need to radically change what were succesful designs so retained their familiar look almost right to the end.

 

F.W. Hawksworth did shake things up a bit towards the end with the 94XX, 15XX and the County. but they still looked every bit Swindon products.

Many of the Hawksworth era projected designs would have made them look even more like the LMS with for instance the long wide firebox boiler and outside valve gear on the "new" pacific.

 

I suppose the County could be seen as an answer to the changing times with a two cylinder layout to produce virtually the same power as the much more complex and expensive Castle.

(However it was still no more than enlarged Hall)

Shades of Britannia? However Castles carried on being built as well!

 

The 15XX with outside Walschaerts and lots of welding and no running plate! Very modern but still Swindon.

 

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

This, I think is a good point.  GW standard designs were introduced from the first years of the Twentieth Century.  That gave a 20-year lead on the other 3, which often failed to get into their stride in terms of their great standard designs until later...

 Unavoidably so. All the others contained multiple major companies of similar scale and traditions, whereas the GW subsumed only a few minor lines in Wales and quickly imposed its monoculture, the rapeseed blight of the UK railway. There's not a single RTR model of any of those Welsh railway's products. None of the pre-group charm of infinite variety that can be enjoyed in happier locations.

[The Stationmaster]

 Unavoidably so. All the others contained multiple major companies of similar scale and traditions, whereas the GW subsumed only a few minor lines in Wales and quickly imposed its monoculture, the rapeseed blight of the UK railway. There's not a single RTR model of any of those Welsh railway's products. None of the pre-group charm of infinite variety that can be enjoyed in happier locations.

 

I would suggest the fact that many of the engines taken into total stock from the various amalgamations continued until they ended their natural lives hardly suggests that their individuality was totally lost although, for obviously sensible reasons, most acquired GWR standard fittings and even boilers where it was logical and cost effective to do so.  The Grouping in fact merely continued what had been going on in GWR history for many years in that it had grown by a succession of amalgamations rather than takeovers although the latter certainly applied in respect of some lines of a fairly local nature.  In reality something over 25% of the engines which came into GWR ownership at the time of the Grouping were still in traffic a quarter of a century later at the time of nationalisation - notwithstanding major renewal and building programmes from the late 1920s onwards.

 

The interesting thing about the company as it grew was how it was moulded into a whole by a succession of fairly strong characters although that was really little different from what happened on many other companies - the notable thing was that the Churchward era brought massive advances in loco engineering which helped stamp an particular appearance on much of the company's engines although rather perversely its most numerous class owed virtually nothing to Churchward's ideas and was actually contrary to some of them.

 

As far as 'minor lines in Wales' are concerned it all depends how you define 'minor' as the two largest were both highly profitable and contributed a number of departmental officers to the Post-Group GWR in exactly the same way as did, for example, some of the companies which were absorbed into the LNER grouping.  True Swindon held sway in loco and rolling stock engineering terms, and Reading held a similar position in signal engineering (there being no alternative anyway), but there is an awful lot more to a railway than its trains and signals although many most lineside observers simply do not know about or are not interested in such things and thus do not realise their impact.

[brianusa]

There is a whole treasure trove of models waiting to be produced of amalgamated locos and stock which might be applicable to at least pre-war times and layouts. Not only tank engines but also tender engines and unique vans and wagons. Most readers here are aware of them all or some but whether it would be a commercial proposition would be open to conjecture, as the times and layouts would be limited to the GW. Good for GW enthusiasts though!

 

Brian.

[bike2steam]

 but whether it would be a commercial proposition would be open to conjecture,

Brian.

If they were, I'm sure one of the manufacturers would be making them.

[melmerby]

How about this "Westernised" long lasting relic of an absorbed railway taken in 1964:

 

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/051264.jpg

 

Keith

[brianusa]

If they were, I'm sure one of the manufacturers would be making them.

Those manufacturers seem quite happy churning out the same locos and rolling stock year after year and when was there last, a major introduction of something different. Wouldn't want the hobby to stagnate!

 

Brian.

[Andy Kirkham]

It's perhaps worth noting one field in the the Western is not ominipresent - namely the the category of elite main-line layouts with scale-length trains. Where is the Western equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham, The Gresley Beat, Copenhagen Fields etc? And why is it specifically the Great Northern (rather that just the East Coast Main Line) that has attracted all these top modellers?

[chrisf]

It's perhaps worth noting one field in the the Western is not ominipresent - namely the the category of elite main-line layouts with scale-length trains. Where is the Western equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham, The Gresley Beat, Copenhagen Fields etc? And why is it specifically the Great Northern (rather that just the East Coast Main Line) that has attracted all these top modellers?

 

Small is beautiful?

 

Chris

[Zomboid]

I wonder if a manufacturer were to build a range of Taff Vale rolling stock, would that lead to a proliferation of South Wales layouts? I guess the manufacturers are still responding to what's historically been popular, going back to when RTR was considerably worse than it is today, so if anyone had wanted Taff Vale trains they would have built them.

[coachmann]

I seem to recall a very early whitemetal bodyline kit was for a Taff Vale 0-6-2T to go on a proprietary chassis. In those the model railway scene was littered with odd choices such as a 94xx Pannier tank and a 97xx condensing pannier tank. In an age of little choice they were found their way onto many a GWR BLT...! Hornby Dublo produced the SER R1 0-6-0T ~ gawd knows why in a wide open market, but it's 2-rail chassis was the carrot for kit builders. Andy Kirkham makes a good point about the lack of GWR mainline layouts the equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham etc........Yet I painted a heck of a lot of BSL and etched GWR Dining Cars over the years and no doubt Hornby is pleased with its sales of Kings and Castles, Stars and Counties.

[Dunsignalling]

The biggest reasons for the initial and continuing popularity of late-GWR and BR(W) branch line layouts can be summed up in four words, Holidays, Space, Availability and Standardization.

 

Holidays because the population of England and much of the wealth were, and still are, concentrated in London and the South East. In the days before cheap turboprop air travel to the continent, Devon and Cornwall were THE places to go and the roads and cars were such that getting there by rail was much more satisfactory. There's the inspiration.

 

Space because a few pioneering layouts demonstrated that it was possible to compress many GWR branch termini to a family friendly size without losing their essential character or omitting too many of the facilities.

 

Availability because the kit manufacturers of the day (especially K's) offered enough to get such a project off the ground without leaving many obvious gaps. The difference between then and now is purely that what once had to be built is now available ready made and those who want to make can now agonize over what diagram of auto-coach to tackle next.

 

Standardization because the locos in use on most such lines were drawn from a relatively small number of types (see: Availability above). Neither did you need much in the way of coaches; an Auto-coach and/or a B-Set plus a BCK for the occasional through coach to London did the job.  OK there was considerable prototype variety within those categories but good basic coverage was, and is, straightforward to achieve. This simplicity also keeps such layouts from being too demanding in terms of cost.

 

 

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

I seem to recall a very early whitemetal bodyline kit was for a Taff Vale 0-6-2T to go on a proprietary chassis. In those the model railway scene was littered with odd choices such as a 94xx Pannier tank and a 97xx condensing pannier tank. In an age of little choice they were found their way onto many a GWR BLT...! Hornby Dublo produced the SER R1 0-6-0T ~ gawd knows why in a wide open market, but it's 2-rail chassis was the carrot for kit builders. Andy Kirkham makes a good point about the lack of GWR mainline layouts the equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham etc........Yet I painted a heck of a lot of BSL and etched GWR Dining Cars over the years and no doubt Hornby is pleased with its sales of Kings and Castles, Stars and Counties.

 

The Wills TVR U1 is what you're thinking of Larry.  Cotswold did at least two different Valleys company kits which occasionally appear but go for very high prices - I seem to recall that one was TVR and the other was RR but both were in 'Swindonised' format - it's possible that South Eastern Finecast could supply as the Cotswold kits went into the Nu Cast range and subsequently to SEF whence at least one (the 16XX) is slated to/has reappeared plus a new etched chassis for it.  

 

The biggest problem for any 'Valleys' based model is suitable coaching stock as in terms of Post Group loco types it is more or less totally covered from r-t-r sources in 4mm scale.

[melmerby]

It's perhaps worth noting one field in the the Western is not ominipresent - namely the the category of elite main-line layouts with scale-length trains. Where is the Western equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham, The Gresley Beat, Copenhagen Fields etc? And why is it specifically the Great Northern (rather that just the East Coast Main Line) that has attracted all these top modellers?

"Elite"

IMHO That smacks of being somewhat sniffy.

 

Keith

[ejstubbs]

Those manufacturers seem quite happy churning out the same locos and rolling stock year after year and when was there last, a major introduction of something different. Wouldn't want the hobby to stagnate!

 

Brian.

 

AFAIAA both Hornby and Bachmann have in recent years released a number of locomotives that have not previously been made available rtr.  That said, they do seem to have been mostly post-grouping and in to BR era.  (One peripheral advantage of that to the manufacturers is that their existing coach and wagon ranges don't necessarily need urgent additions to match the locos.)

 

Taking the argument that ready availability of GWR prototypes in rtr drove the popularity of that network as a modelling subject, could it be argued now that what feels to me like a preponderance of BR steam models, in livery if not origin, is partly responsible for the popularity of 1950s-1960s BR as a modelling subject?  Agreed it may also be driven by that era being what a lot of current modellers remember from the halcyon days of their youth (if they weren't exactly the halcyon days of the railways themselves).  I think there might be a kind of virtuous circle formed between the nostalgia and the rtr availability, each feeding the other.  I certainly can't help noticing the high percentage of exhibition layouts these days that seem to be based on that period.

 

My own experience of railways in my youth started with SR EMUs, which I found then and still find now uninspiring.  I have a very diffuse recollection of seeing a tank engine of some kind from a bridge over the Bromley North branch in what would have been the early sixties, but that could well be a false or confused memory.  I do have affectionate memories of the Peaks which used to haul me up and down to London when we lived in Derby in the 1970s, and the class 20s which I used to watch double-heading freights through Duffield where I went to school, but even back then my greater interest lay in a railway that existed before I was born.  My Dad used to wax lyrical about the West Coast main line pre-war when as a lad he lived in Morecambe, and the first train set he bought me was the Hornby Express Passenger set with 6201 featuring synchrosmoke and 'exhaust steam sound' (who needs DCC?!)  Ever since those days I've felt a spiritual allegiance to the Midland and the LMS.

 

(Call me peculiar, but I find it difficult to get anything like as excited about GWR locomotives.  I'm afraid just find them rather samey and uninspiring.  A bit like BMWs: I can recognise and accept that they have sound aesthetic and engineering qualities, but they simply don't stir the blood the way a Black 5 or a Duchess does.  I guess I'm not that fond of green engines, and the brass domes don't do anything for either.  Sorry 'n all that...)

[coachmann]

"Elite"

IMHO That smacks of being somewhat sniffy.

 

Keith

It must be how people "read" into things, as I saw the word 'elite' to mean the named-train Western equivalent of LMS/LNER/SR mainlines as distinct from backwater lines.

[melmerby]

It must be how people "read" into things, as I saw the word 'elite' to mean the named-train Western equivalent of LMS/LNER/SR mainlines as distinct from backwater lines.

Picking out mainly one company (GN) and associating it with "top modellers" gave me that impression.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[Kris]

I wonder if there are fewer mainline GWR layouts due to the negative preconceptions some modellers have about GWR lines, brought on by people saying that there are too many GWR lines, meaning BLT's.

[Clearwater]

Hungerford is a great "mainline" gwr layout.

 

I have pondered on the question as to distribution of layouts and agree there are more ecml based scale length layouts than others. Liverpool Lime Street is fantastic though. Wasn't there a shap layout a few years ago? As with anything else, fashions come and go. With two excellent rtr kings on the market, we may see more western themed layouts

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Hungerford is a great "mainline" gwr layout.

 

I have pondered on the question as to distribution of layouts and agree there are more ecml based scale length layouts than others. Liverpool Lime Street is fantastic though. Wasn't there a shap layout a few years ago? As with anything else, fashions come and go. With two excellent rtr kings on the market, we may see more western themed layouts

 

David

 

And of course thinking back there were some rather good (by the standard of the time) GWR layouts about in the 1960s and I do seem to recall that Pendon is GWR, there is a rather excellent model of Totnes about, there is another very heavily based on Pontrilas of course - so that's three GW mainlines for a start.

[John_Miles]

The Wills TVR U1 is what you're thinking of Larry.  Cotswold did at least two different Valleys company kits which occasionally appear but go for very high prices - I seem to recall that one was TVR and the other was RR but both were in 'Swindonised' format - it's possible that South Eastern Finecast could supply as the Cotswold kits went into the Nu Cast range and subsequently to SEF whence at least one (the 16XX) is slated to/has reappeared plus a new etched chassis for it.  

 

The biggest problem for any 'Valleys' based model is suitable coaching stock as in terms of Post Group loco types it is more or less totally covered from r-t-r sources in 4mm scale.

 

 

"We" (i.e. the Cardiff 4mm Group) have built two pre-grouping Taff Vale layouts in 4mm. The first was Aberdare TV which went to most of the major exhibitions and quite a few of the smaller ones. Our current exhibition layout is Ynysybwl. There is a lot of building to do in terms of C&W and locos and a lot of research is required but it is rewarding and gives a good flavour of the valleys and what was for many years one of the most profitable railways in the UK. Also doing your own thing is better than opening boxes.

 

The Gibbon brothers also built a 7mm layout with an Ynysybwl flavour - although it was not true to the prototype.