The omnipresent Western Region

[Paragon]

Well, I think that there is probably again a staple diet of branches in the GWR/ Western Region which survived closure, as mentioned earlier, due to the geography of the countryside/ coastal areas. Hence the proliferation of smaller branchline layouts over full scale length named expresses. Also as earlier mentioned, space/ time/ affordability.

I'm enjoying reading all these responses, thanks all. I think that there are a lot of individual reasons behind the choice of region to model, and of course there will be 'unique points' to all of them in some way or another, be it stock types, electrification and reminiscences of the areas/ eras.

Another very valid point that's been made is the sheer amount of GWR/ Western Region RTR stock that has been produced, not to mention kits as well, certainly when considering for example that until the last 10 or so years, I believe, there was a shortage of RTR emus based on the 3rd rail electrified types and A/C overheads as well which lasts, in the latter case to this day, although this maybe will be more relevant to Diesel and Electric modellers with the exception of the SR stock of course which ran in Steam times.

Thanks for your contributions,

Paragon

[melmerby]

And of course thinking back there were some rather good (by the standard of the time) GWR layouts about in the 1960s and I do seem to recall that Pendon is GWR, there is a rather excellent model of Totnes about, there is another very heavily based on Pontrilas of course - so that's three GW mainlines for a start.

And if you have the room, how about a four track mainline with a typical wandering branch joining, (or two as at Tiverton Jn!). Several of those on the GWR - best of both worlds

 

I wonder whether there is a perception that a major main line layout needs pacifics and hence LNER where there were more than plenty?

I haven't see so many LNWR/LMS main line layouts around and there is lots of scope for big trains there.

 

Keith

[BG John]

I wonder whether there is a perception that a major main line layout needs pacifics and hence LNER where there were more than plenty?

A major main line needs Rover class 4-2-2s, or the earlier Irons Dukes. Or as it gets deep into the West, 4-4-0 saddle tanks .

[Zomboid]

The LNER has/had Mallard and Flying Scotsman. Both of which are very well known to even non-railway types, and when I was 5 and first getting into trains, "The Mallard" was my favourite engine, and hence the LNER was my favourite. I think it's because of that that even now I have more interest in goings on relating to the ECML and GEML to anything in former LMS territory.

It also helps that Gresley's large engines have the nicest aesthetics of any British steam loco. That's opinion obviously, but they have cleaner lines due to the round top fireboxes, which (IMO) gives them a graceful appearance and proportions which have never been bettered. Not in this country at least. His streamliners actually lasted until they were withdrawn too, which can't be said of the other three. So if I was in the market for a British steam era main line layout, somewhere to run some of Sir Nigel's finest would be a big draw for me.

[Andy Kirkham]

"Elite"

IMHO That smacks of being somewhat sniffy.

 

Keith

I didn't mean to provoke anyone by using that word.

I was thinking of the sort of layouts that astonish us by their ambition, size and truth to the prototype, which most modellers do not have the resources to emulate.

[coachmann]

I'm rather glad I wasn't bogged down by 'Mallard' or 'Gresley' drivel as I was able to make up my own mind. Due to moving towns, I didn't start school until I was five and so perhaps this is why I can recall that first day. There were two other new starters with me in spring 1947 and we were left in a room with a box of books. I found one with coloured illustrations of locos, saw the ones labelled LNER that i regarded as 'ours' and some with 'LMS' on them, initials that I had noticed when visiting my mothers town. The weirdest locos to me were the ones with no dome and no valve gear, but as my years accumulated I became fascinated by the GWR and to a lesser extent some other pre-group companies. Enter library. 

 

The problem other railways have even to this day is they are only associated with key express engines while the lesser brethren are barely mentioned. This happens far less on the GWR because it seems folk are as much acquainted with a King or Castle as they are with a Hall or Grange or Manor or even a 14xx and Dean Goods. In short, GWR enthusiast know their locos showed the other companies the error of their short-travel ways and so they have on need to boast.

 

   Spit the pips out of that... 

[melmerby]

Posted in error

[melmerby]

 

 His streamliners actually lasted until they were withdrawn too, which can't be said of the other three.

Had it been practical they would have been de-streamlined as well. it would have meant fairly major work on a loco that was working OK as it was, unlike the" Spam Cans" which had problems

It served no useful purpose and hindered maintenance. The LMS was already de-streamlining theirs before nationalisation.

The GWR..................!!!

 

Keith

[brianusa]

We are all aware of the GWs misguided efforts at streamlining; something that was to appease some worthy's idea of competition with the other two. Of course, it was a silly attempt; the public for whom the image was was intended didn't care for it neither did the railway if truth told. It suffered the same maintenance accessibility problems and bits were soon removed until only the cab remained. The Southern found out the same thing later with the MNs/WCs and shed the skin altogether on a lot of engines and luckily what was left was rather an attractive loco. The A4s never looked as good with the fairing removed and the LMS probably had the best looking attempt worthy of the more numerous American streamliners of the day!

 

Brian.

[Zomboid]

I'm sure they would have destreamlined the A4s had it been practical, but they didn't. So to me as a small child in the 80s, they still had that glamour. The practicalities of the arrangement didn't matter to me then...

Anyway, that's just why I would model the LNER if I wanted a steam era main line.

[Clearwater]

I quite like the streamlined duchesses. The high flare tenders in particular. However when in austerity black and no lining, the shape looks awful. I had my duchess of Hamilton running around this afternoon with a few Crimson red coaches. Was quite impressive. I'd pay to seen Hamilton back in steam in streamlined form... I don't think anyone has suggested streamlining with 6023 or 7027... Though doing something to 7027 is preferable to its current state!

[Big James]

I'm slowly being seduced by the charms of the western region. I've just treated myself to a rake of Hornby collett bow ended stock in Crimson and cream along with a collett goods engine. Seriously being tempted by a star class. My first love will always be the southern region. But I think every railway is unique in my eyes. I love the fact that on the SR & WR nothing was wasted parts of older engines was recycled into newer engines.

 

Big james

[martinT]

And of course thinking back there were some rather good (by the standard of the time) GWR layouts about in the 1960s and I do seem to recall that Pendon is GWR, there is a rather excellent model of Totnes about, there is another very heavily based on Pontrilas of course - so that's three GW mainlines for a start.

 

Not forgetting the Dainton-based (7mm) layout I saw a few years back.

 

A friend of mine is modelling Box in EM - but he's run out of space & is running out of time (he's 86).

 

Martin

[Craigw]

It's perhaps worth noting one field in the the Western is not ominipresent - namely the the category of elite main-line layouts with scale-length trains. Where is the Western equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham, The Gresley Beat, Copenhagen Fields etc? And why is it specifically the Great Northern (rather that just the East Coast Main Line) that has attracted all these top modellers?

 

Pendon?

 

Craig W

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I wonder whether there is a perception that a major main line layout needs pacifics and hence LNER where there were more than plenty?

I haven't see so many LNWR/LMS main line layouts around and there is lots of scope for big trains there...

 Well of course they do, and look so lovely doing the work! Aesthetics are a tricky thing but a big round top is hard to beat, it just looks so right. But concerning LNWR, the big trains were a major problem as I recall from those trying to model this company or the early LMS' WCML routes, using the modelling resources of the 1960s. Such tiny locos in which to try and cram the not particularly good mechanisms of the day, which then had to haul the great caravans of the West Coast services.

 

...The problem other railways have even to this day is they are only associated with key express engines while the lesser brethren are barely mentioned. This happens far less on the GWR because it seems folk are as much acquainted with a King or Castle as they are with a Hall or Grange or Manor or even a 14xx and Dean Goods. In short, GWR enthusiast know their locos showed the other companies the error of their short-travel ways and so they have no need to boast...

Growing up in Hatfield on the GNR route there was great appreciation of the Doncaster development. The legend of Stirling was still alive, and not just for the fabulous singles: note that one of the first privately preserved locos (1959) was Captain Smith's J52 initially located at Marshmoor, a loco with a direct connection to Stirling's standard shunter. Likewise the N2 was very highly regarded as a suburban service machine with a lineage of earlier Ivatt and Stirling types built for the same work. There was no small regret that one of the closely related J6 'Knick-knacks' didn't get preserved, a very well liked loco for the same reason as the N2, the prodigous work that could be got out of such a small machine. (It was said in jest that the Midland would have demanded two locos and the Lickey banker to get each evening departure of a pair of Quads off the 'Hotel curve' platform at KX.)

 

But naturally enough it was Doncaster's progress from Stirling's bogie single through Ivatt's atlantics to the pacifics and V2s that was the crown of all this. As the direct development path to the best format for maximum power UK steam there is none other like it. As with all development engineering, it was built on what had gone before, and Gresley was explicit in his praise for the debt he and others owed Churchward. But he had many other debts, of whom Chapelon deserves specific mention: good principles for improvement of the breed were also to be found elsewhere than Swindon.

[melmerby]

. Such tiny locos in which to try and cram the not particularly good mechanisms of the day, which then had to haul the great caravans of the West Coast services.

 

 

But naturally enough it was Doncaster's progress from Stirling's bogie single through Ivatt's atlantics to the pacifics and V2s that was the crown of all this. As the direct development path to the best format for maximum power UK steam there is none other like it.

Exactly what was "tiny" about WCML locos? The Claughton from 1913 had 27000lbs T.E (only 2000 less than Gresley's A1 of 1922) and was hardly small

 

Also arguably the ultimate in UK passenger loco design is not the round top firebox 3 cylinder conjugated gear loco but the flat top 4 cylinder approach (Coronation)

 

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Oh I rather think that four hundred three cylinder UK pacifics, including the last two built, over a paltry fifty with four rather carry the day don't you? And there was never anything wrong with using cheaper to construct round tops, look around the world and there's plenty of examples with far greater power output than UK Belpaire firebox types. That was just a religious pietism in UK steam boiler engineering.

 

While there were some larger LNWR types, what people wanted to model were more than these: the Jumbo 2-4-0s and the 4-4-0 Precursors and Georges were the popular items, or so it seemed to me.

[coachmann]

Comical how a discussion on the popularity of the GWR gets shunted into a sand drag by Gresley and Bulleid grief junkies.... 

[bike2steam]

 But I think every railway is unique in my eyes. 

 

Big james

Yep agree, each railway has a differing set of demands put on their operating departments, but we still have to suffer the constant ad-nauseam of  repeats of the same argument that one railways locos are better than the other. In my mind usually perpetrated by those without an engineering background.    Wasn't this thread about GW/WR locos ??

[Andy Kirkham]

Pendon?

 

Craig W

Fair point of course, but Pendon was begun many decades ago and I was thinking of the preferences that determine what layouts are built in the present day.

[bluebottle]

Reading this thread with mild interest, my thoughts paddling off down a stream of consciousness ... seems quite appropriate that "The King" is often thought of as the ultimate in steam power ... I don't bother arguing with Elvis fans either ... so long as they don't disparage Buddy Holly ... wonder who's gigging at "The Railway" on Friday ...................?

[melmerby]

Oh I rather think that four hundred three cylinder UK pacifics, including the last two built, over a paltry fifty with four rather carry the day don't you?

What's numbers got to do with it?

50 million flies can't be wrong?

 

Keith

[Roger Sunderland]

It's perhaps worth noting one field in the the Western is not ominipresent - namely the the category of elite main-line layouts with scale-length trains. Where is the Western equivalent of Retford, Little Bytham, The Gresley Beat, Copenhagen Fields etc? And why is it specifically the Great Northern (rather that just the East Coast Main Line) that has attracted all these top modellers?

Not really the case. Your post Spurs me to mention 'Horfield' as a worthy current example. As an occasional member of the operating team I know the builders would certainly not classify their creation among the " elite" group mentioned earlier, but as an example of a prototypical four track mainline running 12 coach and 50 wagon trains along its 35' length it surely fits the bill. Not only this but ALL the stock is expertly weathered to represent a true picture of the Western Region in BR days Ie. filthy.

 

It's replacement is already in the advanced planning stages and will also depict a, much better known, section of WR main line. Meantime Horfield continues on the circuit and can be seen in action at the Swindon festival of steam on Sept 10/11th and also at the Wigan finescale exhibition on October 1/2nd 2016. The layout was featured in Hornby magazine February 2014 and BRM February 2016.

[ejstubbs]

Oh I rather think that four hundred three cylinder UK pacifics, including the last two built, over a paltry fifty with four rather carry the day don't you?

 

Couldn't that have been as much due to traffic requirements on the different networks, as to any innate superiority of one design over the other - at least up as far as nationalisation?

 

Forgive my ignorance, but which were the last two UK pacifics to be built?  I'm probably dropping a massive clanger here but I would have assumed those would have been been Britannias which don't fall in to either of the above categories.  (I wouldn't have thought that Tornado counts, since it's an enthusiast project which has little to do with the engineering, operational and economic exigencies of a real railway.  Are you cheekily counting 60103 as the other one?!)

[melmerby]

Couldn't that have been as much due to traffic requirements on the different networks, as to any innate superiority of one design over the other - at least up as far as nationalisation?

 

Forgive my ignorance, but which were the last two UK pacifics to be built?  I'm probably dropping a massive clanger here but I would have assumed those would have been been Britannias which don't fall in to either of the above categories.  (I wouldn't have thought that Tornado counts, since it's an enthusiast project which has little to do with the engineering, operational and economic exigencies of a real railway.  Are you cheekily counting 60103 as the other one?!)

I assume he meant DoG & Tornado one of which was an experimental engine and the other a reproduction!

 

DoG is hardly representative of UK Pacifics having Caprotti gear, but it does have a Coronation inspired boiler.

 

Keith