Melbourne Australia Level crossing removal

[kevinlms]

Progress on removal of several level crossings.

 

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/the-level-crossing-removal-authority-presents-game-of-drones/

[DougN]

Gees there becoming an endangered species around here! Total stuffed my area for a while in Blackburn. My comments are why did they not think of using the opportunity to fix the traffic flows and bus stops!

 

Good film though!

[Gwiwer]

With over 30 crossings on my 30-mile suburban line the current removal of three is only the top of the iceberg. They plan to do eight more and that's just in the initial programme of 50.

 

The plan to remove 50 of the "Most congested and dangerous" level crossings is a mix of practical reality and political point-scoring. It's no accident that my line has the greatest number of planned removals when it passes through several marginal constituencies.  But it also has the greatest number of crossings so this could be viewed in more than one light.

 

One of the first grade separations involved the very busy Gardiner crossing which was used by trams and trains.  That has reduced to three the number of places where our two electric railed transport networks cross on the level.  There are no plans to remove the others in the near future.

 

Currently three adjoining crossings, at Ormond, McKinnon and Bentleigh stations, are in the process of being "dug out" meaning the line is closed for five weeks and a large fleet of buses is replacing trains over a fairly short distance.  Two other lines are also closed for one week while piling and other early works are carried out.  The program is gathering momentum.

 

It is arguable as to whether all the 50 crossings need to be done.  Some are actually rather quiet roads and the crossings have no significant history of incidents.  Eel Race Road at Carrum is an example.  The planned removal of the nearby and busier Station Street crossing will result in massive works.  An all-new bridge at a much higher level is required over the Patterson River next to the crossing and station, a new station on a viaduct will be required and the stabling sidings will be lost.  Current thinking will have the line elevated all the way to and over Eel Race Road before returning to ground level.

 

Large sections of some routes are currently planned to be elevated in a "Skyrail" program which is generating significant levels of objection.

 

The only people who benefit from level crossing removal are road users.  Rail users suffer inconvenience during removal works (often taking a year or more from start to finish as most works are done at weekends) for no gain.  Surely rail should be seen as part of a solution to road traffic woes but here it is the vote which speaks and which unlocks funding and most adults drive.  

 

I am in no doubt that a few of the removals have been greatly beneficial on a regional basis in terms of assisting traffic flow but remain to be convinced that most of the 50 in the programme are really necessary.

[SRman]

Gees there becoming an endangered species around here! Total stuffed my area for a while in Blackburn. My comments are why did they not think of using the opportunity to fix the traffic flows and bus stops!

 

Good film though!

 

Well, at least the traffic will soon be backed up over a railway bridge instead of over a level crossing!

 

For anyone who doesn't know our area, heading northbound on Blackburn Road at present, one comes to traffic lights (South Parade), level crossing with lights phased in with the traffic lights, right turn at roundabout into Railway Road approximately three car lengths north of the level crossing!), left turn at traffic lights into Chapel Street, Right turn at Maroondah Highway (traffic lights), then Left turn into Surrey Road (traffic lights with filter lane) - Surrey Road eventually reverts to being called Blackburn Road. And that doesn't take account of cars that find themselves in the wrong lane at each of these turns! So, once the level crossing is gone, the rest of these dog-legs remain.

 

As Doug implied, they really should have taken the opportunity to streamline the flow of traffic by adding a deviation to the road through the former Leader Newspaper building site.

[kevinlms]

Well, at least the traffic will soon be backed up over a railway bridge instead of over a level crossing!

 

For anyone who doesn't know our area, heading northbound on Blackburn Road at present, one comes to traffic lights (South Parade), level crossing with lights phased in with the traffic lights, right turn at roundabout into Railway Road approximately three car lengths north of the level crossing!), left turn at traffic lights into Chapel Street, Right turn at Maroondah Highway (traffic lights), then Left turn into Surrey Road (traffic lights with filter lane) - Surrey Road eventually reverts to being called Blackburn Road. And that doesn't take account of cars that find themselves in the wrong lane at each of these turns! So, once the level crossing is gone, the rest of these dog-legs remain.

 

As Doug implied, they really should have taken the opportunity to streamline the flow of traffic by adding a deviation to the road through the former Leader Newspaper building site.

But if you did that, then the allocation of funds will go nowhere. Such is the depth of Melbourne's level crossing problem (there are currently over 170 such crossings in the Metro area), for a city that is expected to have double the population by 2050. Fact is the elimination of level crossings ought to have been done progressively over the past 50 years. A few were done in the 1970s, then virtually stopped for many decades.

Nor can all the money be spent on the Lilydale/Belgrave group of lines. In fact in some ways the Dandenong & Frankston groups ought to have a higher priority, as they both have some freight/country services, whereas the Lilydale/Belgrave group doesn't and also has a 3rd track, a considerable portion of the way.

Some sections of the lines past Caulfield, have the barriers down on average over 60% of the time, during the morning & evening 2 hour blocks each period.

 

The drone video, clearly shows the problem, with putting crossings underground, is the huge trench dividing a suburb. There is no easy way of eliminating railway crossing, obviously the railway has to go below or over the existing road. Sometimes its best to go under, other times its over. But IMO, it needs a plan to remove them and the sooner the better, its already taken far too many years.

 

Railway crossing elimination is undoubtedly a huge ticket item, but ought not be delayed, by minor roadworks, like a shortcut through the old Leader site. That's something that the council & VicRoads need to design. Or the Federal MP, did he have that in his election information, not that I can see on his website. Instead for another road project which has been cancelled, rather than something in his own electorate!

[DougN]

Rick, the benefits have been calculated in the report from PTV which was accepted by Vicroads, I know the author of the report classifying the level crossings and ranking them. Yes there has been political interference with which gets what first. I have had long discussions on this and the whys and wherefores.The complexity of the "political decisions" is created in the relationships of Electorate, Cost, Community benefit, Safety, and disruption. I have a bit of unique view with my Construction industry contacts so; the construction "scuttle butt" which I here through the industry and through other sources. Here is some! (accuracy is, I will admit, hit and miss!)

The historical record of the delivery of the level crossing removals dates back a large number of years.

 

The first modern removal I am aware of is 1998 Boronia station which was delivered under a lump sum contract. The massive issue with this one is the design work was carried out on a haphazard way and soil testing was only carried out to level for half of the length indicating clay sub-straights. SO easy digging.... what they found was as this was only half carried out the balance was in Rock and doubled the value of the contract.

 

The next major level crossing removal was in 2007 of Middleborough Rd Blackburn/ box hill. There was a massive argument (should that be negotiation??) between the government and the contractor (John Holland) with the government saying the contract can be carried out with the methodology and with John Holland refusing stating the timing was too quick and wouldn't work. Subsequently the Government and JH came to a settlement and JH did manage to get it done in time and I believe on budget. I have not heard any scuttle but if JH made a massive profit out of it or not. There was also a couple of logistical benefits for this removal. 1 there was a dump site very close by (old Nubrick quarry near the corner of Middleborough and Burwood hwy) and the high school and council oval could be used on the north side of the site for a staging point.

 

As the above crossing was a success JH went onto to carry out 2010 Springvale Rd Nunawading which used the same methodology. Once this was a success again using at times the old nubrik quarry above but not as the primary dump site.

 

Mitcham Station was carried out in 2014 along with the removal of the Rooks rd and Mitcham rd level crossing. Were these needed even I will admit that they were not high volume roads!

 

Since these were a success along with the removal of Gardener station/Burke Rd 2016

 

Now this year they are dealing with the Frankston line removal of the 3 stations, Ormond, Bentleigh and Mckinnon Stations and the removal of North Rd, Centre rd and Mckinnon Rd will make the road net work around these areas more or actually allow them to flow! This will no doubt be also brought up to the move to higher capacity on the Frankston line as this line is dealing with a lack of capacity and growing numbers using the network. So this might seem like vote buying but it is also required on safety grounds as over packed trains create issues for people with medical conditions and emergencies.

 

When you go through the in construction and planning lists, the highest as per the VicRoads/ PTV report are all included however the orders have been changed. Main Rd St Albans should be higher for instance and so should anything on the Dandenong line as this carry's larger volumes and Freight. These are both increasing BUT they are also creating the same problems. EG the steel trains that rubble at 12.05PM through South Yarra (OK it is what I can have lunch around this time in the office) would take approximately 50 trucks to move and there are 3 to 5 of these trains per day. How can you arrange a LC removal to coincide with BHP rolling shut down and Visy paper to shut down and then take out the trains!

 

Getting people out of cars is not going to solve the problem as the network is at its limits to various lines but the "swinging" seats will always get the $$$$ from any government wanting to stay in power. OK I will add another one John Holland is the only contractor carrying out these works. WHY? because the Leighton group which is very involved are part owner in the operator of the tram & train network.

 

Therefore this is more complex than first meets the eye. For example the Report that was written was the first one of its type in the world with a methodology to rank the infrastructure and benefits for the community!

 

Dare I say this is the reason why our public transport system is so antiquated as this has been happening through out its history, For examples the outer circle railway, the Victorian Government railway Vs the Victorian railway, the MMTB and the other one! (standard gauge and broad gauge trams any one?) All seem to be competing in various areas and not co operating for mutual benefits! Even the current arrangements for the PTV buses on 3 year contracts is not encouraging innovation but to chase the dollar down as low cost path as possible. I just hope that the private Melbourne company (Ventura) can maintain its dominance against the international competition from Degramont!

[Gwiwer]

I understand from two contacts that Eel Race Road, which I mentioned above, is 90th on the list of "most dangerous" and is nowhere in the frame for level of road traffic or delays.  I suspect that as with McKinnon, which is not as busy as its two neighbours but sits awkwardly in between, its removal is being included while they are doing the big one up at Carrum station also mentioned above.  

 

Not strictly under the purview of the Level Crossing Removal Authority but inevitably linked to events is the proposed electrification beyond Frankston to Baxter.  Land exists there for a stabling facility which would replace about one-for-one the spaces to be lost at Carrum.  My understanding of the current proposal is that the track would be doubled at least part of the way to Baxter, possibly all the way, that Leawarra and Baxter stations would of necessity be rebuilt and that the interchange between suburban electric and the diesel trains for Stony Point would also move out to Baxter.  There have been suggestions that the only electric trains to run beyond Frankston would be empty cars to and from the berthing but that seems criminally wasteful.

 

Frankston station, already one pf the more modern on the network and which received significant expenditure only in the past few years, will be rebuilt as part of the deal.  I can only think that this might be needed in order to provide two through platform roads otherwise it seems a monumental waste of money.  Currently the one through road, designated platforms 2 and 3, is used for interchange between electric and diesel services with about half the suburban electrics using the dead-end platform 1.  The demand on the Stony Point service is for travel to and from Frankston; interchanging at Baxter helps no-one.  I'm not sure if Baxter level crossing then gets grade-separated but it would surely need it to handle the increased traffic.  

 

Electrification of the entire line is needed and if it has to be split then Hastings, not Baxter, as by far the largest town on the route should be the interchange point with direct trains to Melbourne.  That would also provide direct electric trains for the fast-growing town of Somerville which is also beyond the proposed limit of electrification and which would also benefit from a level crossing removal if train services were improved to a sensible level.

[kevinlms]

Rick, the benefits have been calculated in the report from PTV which was accepted by Vicroads, I know the author of the report classifying the level crossings and ranking them. Yes there has been political interference with which gets what first. I have had long discussions on this and the whys and wherefores.The complexity of the "political decisions" is created in the relationships of Electorate, Cost, Community benefit, Safety, and disruption. I have a bit of unique view with my Construction industry contacts so; the construction "scuttle butt" which I here through the industry and through other sources. Here is some!  (accuracy is, I will admit, hit and miss!) 

The historical record of the delivery of the level crossing removals dates back a large number of years. 

 

The first modern removal I am aware of is 1998 Boronia station which was delivered under a lump sum contract. The massive issue with this one is the design work was carried out on a haphazard way and soil testing was only carried out to level for half of the length indicating clay sub-straights. SO easy digging.... what they found was as this was only half carried out the balance was in Rock and doubled the value of the contract.  

 

The next mayor level crossing removal was in 2007 of  Middleborough Rd Blackburn/ box hill. There was a massive argument (should that be negotiation??) between the government and the contractor (John Holland) with the government saying the contract can be carried out with the methodology and with John Holland refusing stating the timing was too quick and wouldn't work.  Subsequently the Government and JH came to a settlement and JH did manage to get it done in time and I believe on budget. I have not heard any scuttle but if JH made a massive profit out of it or not. There was also a couple of logistical benefits for this removal. 1 there was a dump site very close by (old Nubrick quarry near the corner of Middleborough and Burwood hwy) and the high school and council oval could be used on the north side of the site for a staging point.

 

As the above crossing was a success JH went onto to carry out 2010 Springvale Rd Nunawading which used the same methodology. Once this was a success again using at times the old nubrik quarry above but not as the primary dump site. 

 

Mitcham Station was carried out in 2014 along with the removal of the Rooks rd and Mitcham rd level crossing. Were these needed even I will admit that they were not high volume roads! 

 

Since these were a success along with the removal of Gardener station/Burke Rd 2016 

 

Now this year they are dealing with the Frankston line removal of the 3 stations, Ormond, Bentleigh and Mckinnon Stations and the removal of North Rd, Centre rd and Mckinnon Rd will make the road net work around these areas more or actually allow them to flow! This will no doubt be also brought up to the move to higher capacity on the Frankston line as this line is dealing with a lack of capacity and growing numbers using the network. So this might seem like vote buying but it is also required on safety grounds as over packed trains create issues for people with medical conditions and emergencies. 

 

When you go through the in construction and planning lists, the highest as per the VicRoads/ PTV  report are all included however the orders have been changed. Main Rd St Albans should be higher for instance and so should anything on the Dandenong line as this carry's larger volumes and Freight. These are both increasing BUT they are also creating the same problems. EG the steel trains that rubble at 12.05PM through South Yarra (OK it is what I can have lunch around this time in the office) would take approximately 50 trucks to move and there are 3 to 5 of these trains per day. How can you arrange a LC removal to coincide with BHP rolling shut down and Visy paper to shut down and then take out the trains!

 

Getting people out of cars is not going to solve the problem as the network is at its limits to various lines but the "swinging" seats will always get the $$$$ from any government wanting to stay in power. OK I will add another one John Holland is the only contractor carrying out these works. WHY? because the Leighton group which is very involved are part owner in the operator of the tram & train network. 

 

Therefore this is more complex than first meets the eye. For example the Report that was written was the first one of its type in the world with a methodology to rank the infrastructure and benefits for the community! 

 

Dare I say this is the reason why our public transport system is so antiquated as this has been happening through out its history, For examples the outer circle railway, the Victorian Government railway Vs the Victorian railway, the MMTB and the other one! (standard gauge and broad gauge trams any one?) All seem to be competing in various areas and not co operating for mutual benefits! Even the current arrangements for the PTV buses on 3 year contracts is not encouraging innovation but to chase the dollar down as low cost path as possible. I just hope that the private Melbourne company (Ventura) can maintain its dominance against the international competition from Degramont!  

Thanks Doug for your insights.

 

You've missed a couple that I know of in recent times. There are two out Sunshine West way that got completed last year. They are only a few hundred metres apart. Sometimes it makes good sense to do lesser need crossing, if they are close by. That way men & equipment can be utilised better, by using them only a short distance apart. Which why I suspect Rooks Road got done the same time as Mitcham Road.

 

As I mentioned earlier, your local Federal MP ought to be pleased, as just about all major crossings in his electorate, have been removed, or work nearing completion. No wonder he has time to go pushing for roads outside his patch!

 

I thought St Albans, is high up the list, isn't works well advanced now?

[Horsetan]

Gees there becoming an endangered species around here! Total stuffed my area for a while in Blackburn. My comments are why did they not think of using the opportunity to fix the traffic flows and bus stops!

 

Good film though!

 

Well that's changed the area out of my recollection!

[SRman]

SWMBO and I had dinner tonight with John and Mary from Brunel Hobbies in Cheltenham (Melbourne). Cheltenham station is on the Frankston line and has level crossings near both ends of the station. I asked John what was supposed to happen with them, and he replied that one of the crossings was on the list (some way down), but the other isn't. This caused us all some amusement, because of the short distance between the two crossings and the station's position, the station would have to be rebuilt and the gradient would be like a roller coaster!

This would be another case like Mitcham and Rooks Roads, where one is busy and congested (Mitcham Road), while the other is not all that busy but the gradients and landfalls meant that both had to be done at the same time.

[Gwiwer]

Charman Road at Cheltenham is on the list and has the banners up proclaiming it to be "One of Victoria's 50 most dangerous level crossings - that's why we're removing it".

 

Park Road at the other end of the station is not so adorned.  The limited amount of detail so far made available to Joe Public does not offer any comment on whether the railway would go over or under these but under is assumed.  Neither is there any suggestion (known to me) that Cheltenham station would be rebuilt though that would also be needed.  Along with Mentone next down the line it is of architectural and historical interest and just as with Mentone there are already rumblings about somehow keeping the existing structure in use.

 

Cheltenham also has a terminating bay platform which sees regular use and would need to be retained in any future rebuild.

[kevinlms]

SWMBO and I had dinner tonight with John and Mary from Brunel Hobbies in Cheltenham (Melbourne). Cheltenham station is on the Frankston line and has level crossings near both ends of the station. I asked John what was supposed to happen with them, and he replied that one of the crossings was on the list (some way down), but the other isn't. This caused us all some amusement, because of the short distance between the two crossings and the station's position, the station would have to be rebuilt and the gradient would be like a roller coaster!

 

This would be another case like Mitcham and Rooks Roads, where one is busy and congested (Mitcham Road), while the other is not all that busy but the gradients and landfalls meant that both had to be done at the same time.

There are lots of similar locations. Bayswater is one, with Scoresby Road & Mountain Highway at opposite ends of the station. This project has started, at both ends, I might add and there is a complication of a train maintenance depot opposite the station.

 

Its no big deal, that the list gets amended as things progress, IMO,

 

FWIW, here is the current list - for 50 crossings in 2 terms (8 years), a respectable plan, by any way of counting, for which they ought to be congratulated.

 

http://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/crossings

[DougN]

Thanks Kevin, interesting to see that Toorak rd is so far down the list. I know there has been some work carried out on it... I drive across it most days! It is also one of the least reliable boom gate sets in Melbourne.

 

Scoresby and Mountain hwy I have thought they may raise the roads rather than drop the railway as the land form around there does agree with the idea. It however may require some compulsory purchases of property. There was some noise about this in the local rags in the last few months along with complaints that mountain hwy was only going to be 2 lanes in each direction.

 

Just to reinforce my point about the John Holland/Leighton tie in, note on the map there is no crossings up for tender!

 

Our federal MP is a bit unknown at the moment as Blackburn went from Deakin to Chisholm so as I keep saying to people we love swinging! Being incredibly marginal does get us more attention to local issues. Does this affect the Feds I would guess not. Does it scare the state MPs you bet! Don't even know who our sitting member is!

 

Rick the thinking behind the upgrading of lines and new builds of stations infuriates me. There is a lack of foresight and planning. I agree that to get a station at Somerville makes all the sense in the world. But from what I have seen, and I use lakeside Pakenham here as an example. They build the housing and allocate land.... 4 years later they build the station with out the grade separation and limited parking and they have relocated the station from the original position from one side of the level crossing to the other. If it was me as town planner. Station first with shopping centre next to it. (Lakeside shops is about a good 2kms away!) good allocation of area for long term parking and good bus inter change point. Along with grade separation. Pushing most of this on the land developers to pay for. The discussions I have had the reason behind not doing this is the government position and minimum volumes required...their view is the volumes have to be there day 1 if not it is shelved! Until it becomes economic against volumes.... But the cost has increased due to the congestion... Let alone in conviniencing as many people as possible. The same thing is happening out west where the roads and rail can not cope!

[Gwiwer]

One only has to look at the development of Lynbrook to see what Doug means.  The first houses went up perhaps 12 years ago.  The station was promised.  It finally opened well after thousands more homes had been built, everyone already had their travel plans and a least one car and the community is cut in half by the railway.  There is no open road crossing though one exists.  It has remained closed and protected by large concrete blocks in the road despite having fully-working booms and warning lights.

 

Half that suburb can only reach the outside world by exiting the residential streets onto the Westernport Highway which is about to be upgraded to a freeway.  It is a long way round by any route to reach shops, schools, health care or indeed anything else.  There is no bus service.  It is possible to walk across the railway at the station but that's all.   The other half of Lynbrook has road access to shops and the slightly less busy Princes Highway route into civilisation.  It has a bus service.  The level crossing, some say, should never have been built as it's a new one and contravenes current guidelines.  It should have been grade-separated from day one.

 

No-one seems prepared to do anything about it.  Meanwhile more houses are being built on the isolated side with no prospects of being more than an outer suburban car-dependant community reliant for their daily needs on driving straight out onto a high-speed trunk road or, by a very circuitous route, onto another notoriously busy road and then facing a level crossing at which long delays occur.  It's very bad planning.

[DougN]

My point exactly Rick. The govern"mental" thinking is unless it can meet its costs on the day it opens it is a pointless activity! I see it as a lack of town planning or foresight on the side of the council. Then again there are powers at work that stop the developer pays! I see this every day in the councils taking massive "fees" from inner and middle ring suburbs all the way to what once were outer ring but hit the fringe and it is a free for all. I have a developer who has just been slugged 80K (up 40K) in a year because they built 24 apartments. This reeks of targeting the soft developers. but if you wanted to sub divide 500 homes I bet you wouldn't be slugged any where near this! 

 

The railway lines are a poor cousin to roads and councils if forced to pay for the infra structure would scream blue murder! But as the developers ((broad acre) pay for all infrastructure (roads, drainage, sewerage, water, electricity reticulation) the councils think they have paid enough. I say no to that it is the apartment blocks that are keeping alot of the inner councils afloat! Middle ring make the apartment developers pay a contribution to open space (read consolidated revenue) then still get slugged for drainage, sewerage, water, electricity reticulation! Now dont get me wrong they are all making large amounts of money out of this but the system is one sided!

 

Any way getting back to the level crossings... why they can't make the developers pay for the bridge (lynbrook, Pakenham lakeside, and officer!) I can't understand this might be around 5000/ block to pay for public transport infrastructure in the broad acre developments! I think that would be wise as the payback will come not just from the increase in supply of land but patronage of the PT system, reduction in environmental impacts (no matter how low!) and an overall benefit to the community. As an aside the construction before the development will also be cheaper. 

 

Any way back to solving the worlds problems latter! 

[aussiebrfan]

My point exactly Rick. The govern"mental" thinking is unless it can meet its costs on the day it opens it is a pointless activity! I see it as a lack of town planning or foresight on the side of the council. Then again there are powers at work that stop the developer pays! I see this every day in the councils taking massive "fees" from inner and middle ring suburbs all the way to what once were outer ring but hit the fringe and it is a free for all. I have a developer who has just been slugged 80K (up 40K) in a year because they built 24 apartments. This reeks of targeting the soft developers. but if you wanted to sub divide 500 homes I bet you wouldn't be slugged any where near this! 

 

The railway lines are a poor cousin to roads and councils if forced to pay for the infra structure would scream blue murder! But as the developers ((broad acre) pay for all infrastructure (roads, drainage, sewerage, water, electricity reticulation) the councils think they have paid enough. I say no to that it is the apartment blocks that are keeping alot of the inner councils afloat! Middle ring make the apartment developers pay a contribution to open space (read consolidated revenue) then still get slugged for drainage, sewerage, water, electricity reticulation! Now dont get me wrong they are all making large amounts of money out of this but the system is one sided!

 

Any way getting back to the level crossings... why they can't make the developers pay for the bridge (lynbrook, Pakenham lakeside, and officer!) I can't understand this might be around 5000/ block to pay for public transport infrastructure in the broad acre developments! I think that would be wise as the payback will come not just from the increase in supply of land but patronage of the PT system, reduction in environmental impacts (no matter how low!) and an overall benefit to the community. As an aside the construction before the development will also be cheaper. 

 

Any way back to solving the worlds problems latter! 

 

Hey Doug,

 

I wholeheartedly agree about why don't developers pay. As you know I live next suburb to where Rick is talking about and lack of foresight and planning on someones part causes a bloody nightmare commute every day. Doubling Thompsons Road, re-opening Evans Road and getting rid of both level crossings would be a start. Yet VICROADS, Casey Council and the State Government (not sure who is ultimately responsible) all seem to sit around. Meanwhile every month thousands of new houses are either built or new estates opened up.

 

Roadraging in Cranbourne.

[Horsetan]

One only has to look at the development of Lynbrook to see what Doug means.  The first houses went up perhaps 12 years ago.  The station was promised.  It finally opened well after thousands more homes had been built, everyone already had their travel plans and a least one car and the community is cut in half by the railway.  There is no open road crossing though one exists.  It has remained closed and protected by large concrete blocks in the road despite having fully-working booms and warning lights.....

 

I wonder what Knox City is like nowadays. It was a brand-new development with some amazingly cheap (and massive) houses when Doug showed me around it in 2002......

[kevinlms]

Thanks Kevin, interesting to see that Toorak rd is so far down the list. I know there has been some work carried out on it... I drive across it most days! It is also one of the least reliable boom gate sets in Melbourne.

 

Scoresby and Mountain hwy I have thought they may raise the roads rather than drop the railway as the land form around there does agree with the idea. It however may require some compulsory purchases of property. There was some noise about this in the local rags in the last few months along with complaints that mountain hwy was only going to be 2 lanes in each direction.

 

Just to reinforce my point about the John Holland/Leighton tie in, note on the map there is no crossings up for tender!

 

Our federal MP is a bit unknown at the moment as Blackburn went from Deakin to Chisholm so as I keep saying to people we love swinging! Being incredibly marginal does get us more attention to local issues. Does this affect the Feds I would guess not. Does it scare the state MPs you bet! Don't even know who our sitting member is!

 

Rick the thinking behind the upgrading of lines and new builds of stations infuriates me. There is a lack of foresight and planning. I agree that to get a station at Somerville makes all the sense in the world. But from what I have seen, and I use lakeside Pakenham here as an example. They build the housing and allocate land.... 4 years later they build the station with out the grade separation and limited parking and they have relocated the station from the original position from one side of the level crossing to the other. If it was me as town planner. Station first with shopping centre next to it. (Lakeside shops is about a good 2kms away!) good allocation of area for long term parking and good bus inter change point. Along with grade separation. Pushing most of this on the land developers to pay for. The discussions I have had the reason behind not doing this is the government position and minimum volumes required...their view is the volumes have to be there day 1 if not it is shelved! Until it becomes economic against volumes.... But the cost has increased due to the congestion... Let alone in conviniencing as many people as possible. The same thing is happening out west where the roads and rail can not cope!

Mountain Highway, that could be OK to drop the road at that end - the adjacent shops are a nuisance, as in the way. AFAIK the 2 lanes each way are for during construction, is the idea to be permanent?

 

But at Scoresby Road end, everything there is flatish, so probably easier to drop the railway, which means Mountain Highway has to.

 

There are certainly some challenging level crossings within the list. High Street Reservoir with it 5 way road junction!

 

As far as overall lack of forward planning, well sadly that always has been the Australian way! A cheap method now & pay well over the odds later, to start to fix. (NBN any one?). The Ring Road is a classic, how much got spent to add lanes, on West & East ends, compared to how much to build the entire thing, not that long ago. BTW, the middle section around the Calder Highway, goes down to 2 lanes each way & NO plans to fix. The money got reallocated to the East West Link & now in No Man's Land. But this is venturing into politics!

 

I thought you were in Deakin, Sukkar's website says he covers Blackburn.

 

Edit to delete the 'W', which made the sentence as clear as mud!

[kevinlms]

I wonder what Knox City is like nowadays. It was a brand-new development with some amazingly cheap (and massive) houses when Doug showed me around it in 2002......

Knox City is the shopping centre (now called Westfield Knox), which has taken over the other rival business centre, the previous name of which eludes me.

 

https://www.westfield.com.au/knox/centre-info/map

[SRman]

We're in Chisholm - the electorate that was still sitting on a knife edge after the polls, last time I looked! 

You are certainly right about the Australian Way! They only ever build for today's traffic, never thinking about tomorrow's traffic, including the extra traffic attracted by the new or "improved" routes (referring to both road and rail).

Going back to Blackburn crossing, for a moment, I can't see traffic flow being improved dramatically once the level crossing is gone. At the present time, if one wants to enter Blackburn Road southbound from the western side on Railway Road, around the roundabout, the level crossing barriers give the necessary breaks in traffic to get in - the sight lines on that corner are very poor too so one cannot see anything coming from the right until it is almost at the roundabout. I realise that the traffic lights on South Parade will still help with breaks in traffic, but to a lesser degree than the level crossing barriers which stopped all traffic from that side, including left-turners coming out of South Parade.

 

The Australian Way also includes freeways that dump traffic into busy city grids with very little run-off: our Eastern Freeway is a case in point, while Brisbane's Riverside freeway is worse. On and off ramps are rarely long enough for proper merging or safe exits onto ordinary roads, with traffic banking up off the exit ramps back into the high-speed traffic ... very, very dangerous. It also includes merging traffic around blind bends with high retaining walls (Richmond Punt Road, Tullamarine Freeway around to Ring Road eastbound).

I'm sure the people who do the planning want to do a proper job but get overridden by the politics and budget cut-backs and restrictions. 

Coming back to our railways, I often find the contrast between Australian railways and British and European ones interesting: we are supposed to have all the "wide open spaces" yet ours are the railways that are crammed in between buildings and roads with sharp curves and steep gradients, while the British and European ones have all the fast, straight lines with gentle, sweeping curves (yes I know there are "tight spots" on their systems too, just that ours seem to have rather more of them!).

Looking at the Lilydale/Belgrave lines, there are so many silly little deviations and kinks that could be straightened out by slewing tracks only a few feet one way or the other, yet those remain untouched. BR and its predecessors did such things a little ata time and line speeds were able to be raised incrementally while travel times were reduced a few minutes at a time, but it all adds up longer term to bigger savings. To see what I mean, just have a look at the first few minutes of this 'driver's eye view' on a Belgrave train, starting from a little to the east of East Camberwell station (very close to my workplace, incidentally).

 

.. or the roller coaster drop from the flyover (again to the east of Camberwell station) as the train descends on the Alamein line. The first two level crossings shown in this one are not scheduled for elimination: Prospect Hill Road is the first, then Riversdale station (which I can see from my office window) then the road and tram crossing on Riversdale Road.

(I have no connection with either of these driver's eye views).

Incidentally, both Camberwell and Canterbury were rare cases of level crossings having been eliminated quite early on.

[Gwiwer]

Confounded level crossing removal.  Swear, expletive, invoke profanity filter.

 

I have a choice for five weeks of driving a significant additional distance to Cranbourne for a direct train to and from the city for a total journey time (door to door) of around 110 minutes.  Or I can use my own line which is in the throes of a blockade during the dig-out of three level crossing removals and has bus replacements in effect for a modest distance.  By direct train the journey time is around 75 minutes.  Allowing for two transfers (to and from the buses) and the slightly reduced timetable being offered it's taking around 110 minutes.  

 

It's harder to park at Cranbourne for a later shift than locally because I know a hidey-hole near a local station which is seldom used but is free unrestricted parking.  So today I used the local line and braved the buses.  Last time I did that one bus broke down and the other ran normally.  Today the bus in front of the line was almost full.  The "line" I should add is coralled by temporary fencing both sides meaning first-in-first-out is the rule.  But no driver appeared.  He was summoned by radio and replied that he was on his meal break and would be another 25 minutes.  All the other buses were blocked in behind .........  Then tonight the bus could not be started and with no spares available late in the evening there was an additional delay until another arrived.  Which of course meant the connecting train was missed and another half-hour delay ensued.  

 

I just - only just - managed to retain my professional calm at arriving home almost three hours after leaving work.  Almost three hours for a 30-mile (46km) trip.  And after a two hour-plus trip in earlier.

 

Not the fault of the Level Crossing Removal Authority but not a good advertisement for public transport either.  Tomorrow I'll try to park in Cranbourne.  Wish me luck!!!

[kevinlms]

We're in Chisholm - the electorate that was still sitting on a knife edge after the polls, last time I looked! 

 

You are certainly right about the Australian Way! They only ever build for today's traffic, never thinking about tomorrow's traffic, including the extra traffic attracted by the new or "improved" routes (referring to both road and rail).

 

Going back to Blackburn crossing, for a moment, I can't see traffic flow being improved dramatically once the level crossing is gone. At the present time, if one wants to enter Blackburn Road southbound from the western side on Railway Road, around the roundabout, the level crossing barriers give the necessary breaks in traffic to get in - the sight lines on that corner are very poor too so one cannot see anything coming from the right until it is almost at the roundabout. I realise that the traffic lights on South Parade will still help with breaks in traffic, but to a lesser degree than the level crossing barriers which stopped all traffic from that side, including left-turners coming out of South Parade.

 

The Australian Way also includes freeways that dump traffic into busy city grids with very little run-off: our Eastern Freeway is a case in point, while Brisbane's Riverside freeway is worse. On and off ramps are rarely long enough for proper merging or safe exits onto ordinary roads, with traffic banking up off the exit ramps back into the high-speed traffic ... very, very dangerous. It also includes merging traffic around blind bends with high retaining walls (Richmond Punt Road, Tullamarine Freeway around to Ring Road eastbound).

 

I'm sure the people who do the planning want to do a proper job but get overridden by the politics and budget cut-backs and restrictions. 

 

Coming back to our railways, I often find the contrast between Australian railways and British and European ones interesting: we are supposed to have all the "wide open spaces" yet ours are the railways that are crammed in between buildings and roads with sharp curves and steep gradients, while the British and European ones have all the fast, straight lines with gentle, sweeping curves (yes I know there are "tight spots" on their systems too, just that ours seem to have rather more of them!).

 

Looking at the Lilydale/Belgrave lines, there are so many silly little deviations and kinks that could be straightened out by slewing tracks only a few feet one way or the other, yet those remain untouched. BR and its predecessors did such things a little ata time and line speeds were able to be raised incrementally while travel times were reduced a few minutes at a time, but it all adds up longer term to bigger savings. To see what I mean, just have a look at the first few minutes of this 'driver's eye view' on a Belgrave train, starting from a little to the east of East Camberwell station (very close to my workplace, incidentally).

 

 

 

.. or the roller coaster drop from the flyover (again to the east of Camberwell station) as the train descends on the Alamein line. The first two level crossings shown in this one are not scheduled for elimination: Prospect Hill Road is the first, then Riversdale station (which I can see from my office window) then the road and tram crossing on Riversdale Road.

 

(I have no connection with either of these driver's eye views).

 

Incidentally, both Camberwell and Canterbury were rare cases of level crossings having been eliminated quite early on.

I doubt whether straightening out the kinks will make that much difference. The reality is most of the stations aren't that far apart, and so there is little benefit in removing the kinks. Kink removal is done primarily on higher speed lines.

 

As grade elimination Ringwood has had some bridges for ever. There is a famous photo at Ringwood with a steam loco hanging over a bridge, 1908 with an EE Class loco.

 

I thought Heathmont Station had been lowered under Canterbury Road, but apparently always so.

[Horsetan]

....arriving home almost three hours after leaving work.  Almost three hours for a 30-mile (46km) trip.  And after a two hour-plus trip in earlier.

 

It must have got worse in Melbourne since my holiday so long ago. I don't remember running into heavy traffic back then, except for one stretch on the South Gippsland Highway, and a queue near the MCG.

[Gwiwer]

It must have got worse in Melbourne since my holiday so long ago. I don't remember running into heavy traffic back then, except for one stretch on the South Gippsland Highway, and a queue near the MCG.

 

 

That's three hours by public transport!  It's far quicker by road but with nowhere to park at the city end unless one wishes to part with the greater part of the day's wages just to park the car.  Off-peak the commute by car typically takes 40 minutes using tollways or over an hour using untolled roads.  In peak hours those times can more than double.

 

As the city has grown rapidly from 3.4 million to all but 5 million people in just the 15 years I've been here so the traffic has worsened very significantly despite (and to an extent because of) extra lanes constantly being added to the major roads.  The outer south-east is one of the fastest-growing regions in the world, along with City and Docklands residential high-rise and the outer west and north-west, meaning (including all areas) an estimated 1500 new residents arrive every week.

[Horsetan]

That's three hours by public transport!  ....

 

Ah, I see.....

 

The hired Holden Commodore was so good that the only public transport I ever tried was the "Puffing Billy" line to Gembrook. Quite an experience.