Wiring Trouble HELP!

[PeteN92]

So I have completed the majority of the wiring on the layout and tested the sections which are highlighted in red and everything runs fine. 

 

 

I have come to wire the final section inside the black box assuming that a positive and negative power feed show go between the two points and then another positive on the lower siding after the isolating rail joiner and a negative on the top siding after that isolating rail joiner. 

 

This however creates a short that shorts out the entire layout.  

 

The points are electrofrogs which have been modified and I am using microswitches to switch the polarity(not sure if this is where It may be going wrong however I have tried reversing the polarity on both switches but this made no difference. 

 

The layout is portable so there is a split between the two boards. Power is moved between the two boards via a jumper cable and track feeds all run to a central power bus wire.  

 

The layout is DC powered.  

 

I've tried playing around with the wiring but i'm stumped. Hopefully an expert will know a quick fix for this. 

 

Regards 

 

Pete

 

 

[cliff park]

Ok, I may be being stupid, but why have you got one negative feed and one positive ? Are the IRJs in one rail in each siding , and is it the same rail ?

[PeteN92]

There is an IRJ in each of the V rails from the point hence the power feed after each of them to power the sidings. 

 

Correct the joint is being used as an insulator on the left hand point. 

 

The only thing I found worked was by having only a negative feed going in between the two points and a positive and negative in each of the sidings. However this would only power the lower siding and the second it got to the frog it cut out. The top siding wouldnt work however as it had no positive feed to run into it. Add the positive feed in however and it shorts???

[PeteN92]

Nope nothing like that , that I can see  , I am using Peco code 75. Could it be something to do with the polarity of having the points back to back ? I cant even seem to get power across one of the points now.

[Kenton]

Please clarify where you have IRJs there appears to be two problems in my book:

 

1. all facing points MUST have IRJs on both rails between the points. (that LH crossover must have them)

 

Where points are toe to toe there must be a new feed pair between them (the point pair at the top right)

 

Assuming no cross-board electrics - there appears to be a missing red feed on the front siding (this will not be a short issue) but will be an unpowered siding.

 

I'm not clear what is going on in the loop. But no feeds are required other than the pair at the far right (point outside the loop

 

Loops do not need any feeds inside the loop just IRJs (in this case board gap) just feeds outside the loop - those you already have.

 

Be very careful with board joins:

it is very easy to have rails touch and this will provide a short.

also (if using copper-clad strips to anchor the sleep at the join don't forget to cut rhe copper on both sides between the rails.

metal end plates are also a bad idea when you want an isolating board join.

 

In general I don't like to rely on a board join to insulate and prefer to make them live with IRJs where I need them (even att the expense of extra wires)

 

Also I agree with the last post. Disconnect the lot. Then connect one wire at a time and TEST. If you don't get power where you expect or it shorts then the last connection was pants.

[Fat Controller]

This rings a bell from the very distant past; a similar problem I had with my Hornby Dublo train set. IIRC, I used to get a short when the points were set in one direction. The problem lies between the last point on the top right of the left-hand board, and the first point on the left of the right hand board. I think you need to put insulated joiners on both rails of the length of track that connects them, and feed the tracks on the top of the RH board at a point between the two points.

[PeteN92]

OK so here is a zoomed in section.

 

To confirm the left hand point on the board join to the left has not got anything touching any of the rail ends on the other boards. 

 

IRJ's are shown in blue and this is what I thought track feed wise should be what is needed however adding the red feed shorts  everything. Without the red feed only the bottom siding runs until the loco gets to the frog.  

 

 

Could adding rail joiners both IRJ's in the correct places and metal ones to pull the power from the other board, across the board joint temporarily be an idea in order to find the fault? 

 

Regards 

 

Pete

[Fat Controller]

OK so here is a zoomed in section.

 

To confirm the left hand point on the board join to the left has not got anything touching any of the rail ends on the other boards. 

 

IRJ's are shown in blue and this is what I thought track feed wise should be what is needed however adding the red feed shorts  everything. Without the red feed only the bottom siding runs until the loco gets to the frog.  

 

detail.png

 

Could adding rail joiners both IRJ's in the correct places and metal ones to pull the power from the other board, across the board joint temporarily be an idea in order to find the fault? 

 

Regards 

 

Pete

Looking at the sketch, it appears that the red/black feeds on the right are connected to the opposing rails to those on the left. Do you really need the right hand pair? The pair on the left should be sufficient.

[Brian]

Post not needed as problem answered by previous poster. 

[PeteN92]

After Checkin what I hAve drawn there against the actual wiring it seems I've just drawn the diagram incorrect my bad....

 

Even with them the correct way around it shorts. And again there is no power over the points.

[Kenton]

Another thought:

 

Are you certain it is a short and not simply a lack of power. A short should trip your controller and result in no power anywhere.

 

Other reasons for lack of power are poor (dry) soldered joins of wire to rail, or even poor wire-wire connectors. Peco points have one big weakness - the wire used under the point to make them electrofrog - I always "improve" them with new wiring.

 

Have you a meter (or a bulb tester) to test every part of the track? as I indicated above the worst way to wire a layout is to connect every wire and then switch on in the vain belief that you have done everything correctly. Testing as you go along is essential no matter how confident/experienced or new to wiring you are. It is even more important when beginning and as layout complexity grows. Test at every new wire added. Disconnect every wire and start at one end (LH) and connect one wire at a time and test, test, TEST. It might sound laborious but is going to easier than have us guessing without the actual layout in front of us.

[Brian]

OK so what isolation is to the left hand points frog rails?  IRJs or just the gap created by the baseboard join? 

If the joint then simplest test is to open the two boards a little to ensure no rails can touch across the board joint and retest. If then clear you have a rail or two bridging the joint.

 

edit to remove typo 

[Memphis32]

I see no need for IRJs for those two sidings top right - unless you want power to both sidings at once, which is unlikely for DC. Just connect them up and the points (actually the frog switch) will isolate the sidings for you.

[Kenton]

 

I see no need for IRJs for those two sidings top right - unless you want power to both sidings at once, which is unlikely for DC. Just connect them up and the points (actually the frog switch) will isolate the sidings for you.

 

 

The points are electrofrogs which have been modified and I am using microswitches to switch the polarity

 

 

Rule 1 still applies IRJ on both frog rails. (not required with insulfrogs)

 

DC ? I don't quite see the relevance here as that top area looks like it is a MPD or just the place where you might like to park up a spare loco or two. Just because you can't run two locos on DC (on a small layout) doesn't mean you might not want 2 or more in occupation.

[Memphis32]

That's following rules without thinking about what they're doing!

With no IRJs there should be no short, and it will eliminate the need for isolating switches.

 

And I didn't say both sidings wouldn't be used at the same time, but that they wouldn't be powered at the same time. However, switches could be put in if derailments or crashes are required!

[traction]

Pete, looking at the two drawings, the feeds look wrong.

 

 

 

If you look at the feed in the top left siding, its red to the top rail.

The feed between the points in the second picture is the opposite way round, yes you did say you drew it out wrong, but which ones did you draw out wrong in the second picture?

Its the feeds between the points that are the wrong way round.

 

Is it possible to split the boards and isolate that complete left hand section in the box?

If so can put a feed between those two points the correct way round and check to see if just those two sidings work OK then?

Might be worth while double checking the frog switching wires to make sure they haven't been crossed.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

 

 

[DCB]

The difference between DC and DCC is that points out of the box are designed for DC, around 1 amp at 12 volts nominal.     DCC can involve much higher amperages especially in loco depots and sidings where multiple locos and coaches are taking current.

 

Good old Peco code 100 electrofrog  points will last for 30 years indoors with no issues, some of mine have not been touched for 20 years despite switching current through the point blades, no irjs or separate frog polarity switching.

 

However if you start using 2 amps or more the point blade contacts start to arc.  This is why DCC needs massive investment in droppers.  DC in the garden has the same problem, 

 

The basic problem with this layout is it is a mish mash of DCC and DC.

 

The problems could easily be sorted by the application of a few rules applicable to both DCC and DC.  

 

1 every feed has its own switch.   

2 every feed is paired =ve and -ve no common return

3 every piece of track laid and every feed is tested as soon as possible after laying.

 

However, there is no doubt that on board power battery knocks spots off track power for realistic movement so bin the track power and enter the 21st century with Red Arrow or similar Radio Control.    It is much more reliable more realistic and more fun.   

 

 

Wiring for layout to be stored in two halves

[kevinlms]

After Checkin what I hAve drawn there against the actual wiring it seems I've just drawn the diagram incorrect my bad....

 

Even with them the correct way around it shorts. And again there is no power over the points.

I would just like to say that making such a mistake like that, is likely to lead you into all sorts of trouble in the future. While it is relatively easy now to remember what you have done, and quickly realise that you have made an error in the drawing. What happens though next year, 5 years or longer? You WILL NOT remember your mistake & potentially spend ages looking for something wrong when there isn't or vice versa.

 

It is important for the diagram to match what you have actually done. Similarly, a friend of mine assumed that a relay had the tags laid out a particular way, without checking. It did NOT, they were a different configuration, but he didn't discover that until he'd assembled all his interlocking on the workbench - a disaster!

 

So please, make sure your diagram, matches the practice, it will save you heaps of headaches.

[kevinlms]

The difference between DC and DCC is that points out of the box are designed for DC, around 1 amp at 12 volts nominal.     DCC can involve much higher amperages especially in loco depots and sidings where multiple locos and coaches are taking current.

 

Good old Peco code 100 electrofrog  points will last for 30 years indoors with no issues, some of mine have not been touched for 20 years despite switching current through the point blades, no irjs or separate frog polarity switching.

 

However if you start using 2 amps or more the point blade contacts start to arc.  This is why DCC massive investment in droppers.  DC in the garden has the same problem, 

 

The basic problem with this layout is it is a mish mash of DCC and DC.

 

The problems could easily be sorted by the application of a few rules applicable to both DCC and DC.  

 

1 every feed has its own switch.   

2 every feed is paired =ve and -ve no common return

3 every piece of track laid and every feed is tested as soon as possible after laying.

 

However, there is no doubt that on board power battery knocks spots off track power for realistic movement so bin the track power and enter the 21st century with Red Arrow or similar Radio Control.    It is much more reliable more realistic and more fun.   

Works well on equipment where you can fit reasonable size batteries for what you want to do. But it isn't going to work well on smaller models.

[Kenton]

 

Works well on equipment where you can fit reasonable size batteries for what you want to do. But it isn't going to work well on smaller models.

 

and who needs the extra expense and complexity. Radio Control :no: This is a basic indoor small and really simple layout in DC not even in DCC. Let's not force the OP to fly by jumping out the window before he can learn to walk.

 

All wiring issues are resolvable it is the way that it is approached that gets people in a tizz.