RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2016 i have seen a lot of second hand mention of GWR Hawksworth coaches in service prior to nationalisation, including a formation on the Cornish Riviera Ltd containing BTKs and TKs, and a second Ltd formation in the Kingstorre article in MRJ containing the same. I have also seen mention (including one photo of a coach only) that Hawksworth BCKs also saw service in 1947. I was hoping that someone might have came across more photographic evidence of this, including what the rest of the formation was comprised of. I couldn't resist adding another BCK to my fleet last night, and now need to find a use for it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Based on Harris and the lot lists contained therein, it would seem that some TKs and BTKs were used on the Riviera, but not necessarily as a block of coaches. It is unlikely that any BCKs made it into service prior to 1948, though. The first lot completed (1705, 10 coaches) wasn't completed until the end of July 1948, so it is unlikely that the first coach of the lot was completed before nationalization. Adrian Edited July 14, 2016 by Adrian Wintle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 14, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 14, 2016 Based on Harris and the lot lists contained therein, it would seem that some TKs and BTKs were used on the Riviera, but not necessarily as a block of coaches. It is unlikely that any BCKs made it into service prior to 1948, though. The first lot completed (1705, 10 coaches) wasn't completed until the end of July 1948, so it is unlikely that the first coach of the lot was completed before nationalization.Adrian In that case I assume the photo I have seen must have been the first of that batch, and delivered at the end of '47. Would be interesting to know what Swindon's production rate was on these coaches... So in reality would certainly not exist in my late June period. However for the mean time a slight bit of modellers licence will be needed, as with the other Hawksworth coaches using on the Ltd sounds most plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Similarly the Hawksworth BGs (K45/46) didn't enter service until after nationalisation either. There was a fairly substantial article on Hawksworth coaches in one of the magazines fairly recently (might have been GWR Journal but I cannot confirm without flipping back through my collection). The gist of the article was that with post-war shortages of both men and materials, delivery of the Hawksworths was pretty slow and (with a few honourable exceptions such as the CRLtd), they were not delivered in blocks. Instead, they were added to the coaching pool in dribs and drabs to replace the most elderly coaches still in service. The GWR didn't tend to keep matching rakes outside of it named expresses anyway so this mix'n'match approach would not have been out of character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 If it helps, here is the formation of one of the Riviera sets in 1947 as listed in Harris [there were of course two sets]: Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 838 Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 792 Third C73 [Collett] - 1490 Composite E158 [Collett] - 7327 Composite E155 [Collett] - 6136 Dining car H26 [Collett 70 ft] - 9571 First A22 [Collett] - 8100 Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 800 Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] 837 -and the Plymouth portion: Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 803 First A20 [Collett] - 8044 Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 844 One might have thought that nothing but the latest stock was good enough for the Riviera and through most of history this was indeed the case. Before the advent of the BR Mk 1 in the 1950s there was a time when at least one Riviera set was all Hawksworth bar the diner, because there were no Hawksworth diners! No BCKs though, as Adrian said. Chris 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 If it helps, here is the formation of one of the Riviera sets in 1947 as listed in Harris [there were of course two sets]: Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 838 Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 792 Third C73 [Collett] - 1490 Composite E158 [Collett] - 7327 Composite E155 [Collett] - 6136 Dining car H26 [Collett 70 ft] - 9571 First A22 [Collett] - 8100 Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 800 Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] 837 -and the Plymouth portion: Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 803 First A20 [Collett] - 8044 Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 844 One might have thought that nothing but the latest stock was good enough for the Riviera and through most of history this was indeed the case. Before the advent of the BR Mk 1 in the 1950s there was a time when at least one Riviera set was all Hawksworth bar the diner, because there were no Hawksworth diners! No BCKs though, as Adrian said. Chris With the exception of the one C73, the Collett stock makes up the First-class (and compo) and catering stock which couldn't have been Hawksworth stock at that time (none yet built). The C73 may have been at least as luxurious as the C82s. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Were there any Hawksworth catering coaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Were there any Hawksworth catering coaches? No Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 No Chris Thanks I didn't think so. I was confused by the comment above about none having been built yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K14 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Thanks I didn't think so. I was confused by the comment above about none having been built yet There was a proposal for an 'Automatic' Buffet Car announced in January 1946. Harris devotes a page to it including an artist's impression. The Engineer of Jan 11 1946 has a brief paragraph:— G.W.R. AUTOMATIC BUFFET CARS.- The Great Western Railway proposes to introduce, as soon as conditions permit, a new type of automatic buffet car, specially suited for use on short main line services. The cars will enable passengers to purchase snacks at any time on a journey by putting sixpence or a shilling into one of the many slot compartments provided. Entrance to the cars will be by a centre door at each end. Fluorescent lighting is to be installed. The 'conditions' presumably related to Rationing restrictions. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 There was a proposal for an 'Automatic' Buffet Car announced in January 1946. Harris devotes a page to it including an artist's impression. The Engineer of Jan 11 1946 has a brief paragraph:— The 'conditions' presumably related to Rationing restrictions. P. Now there would be a novelty coach for Hornby, along the lines of there Royal Mail coach, but spraying ham sandwiches instead! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Wasn't there a prototype 'Automatic Buffet', based on a Siphon G? The association of Hawkesworth stock and the CRE continued long after they had been displaced by Mk1 stock elsewhere; an example was coupled between the loco and train on Up services, Apparently, it was because the compartment doors were large enough to allow a catering trolley to enter and be locked away when not required. Three even received blue and grey livery, and the practice seems to have survived until 1967 or '68- 'Heyday of the Warships' has a couple of photos showing the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2019 A bump for this thread to ask if anyone knows the differences between the Hawksworth brake thirds D131of '47 and the D133 of '49 please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K14 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, gwrrob said: A bump for this thread to ask if anyone knows the differences between the Hawksworth brake thirds D131of '47 and the D133 of '49 please. Looking through both Harris (1993 edition) & Russell (Coaches Appendix Vol. 1), the only external difference I can see is that D.133 had a sliding vent fitted in the corridor side. The big difference appears to be internally; D.131 had wood veneer panelling & D.133 had Holoplast/Formica. All the D.133s were contract-built. Didcot's E.164 7372's Thirds are fitted out in Light Oak like this: (The Firsts are in Maple) Pete S. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimC Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) On 14/07/2016 at 15:25, Karhedron said: Similarly the Hawksworth BGs (K45/46) didn't enter service until after nationalisation either. There was a fairly substantial article on Hawksworth coaches in one of the magazines fairly recently (might have been GWR Journal but I cannot confirm without flipping back through my collection). The gist of the article was that with post-war shortages of both men and materials, delivery of the Hawksworths was pretty slow My understanding is that the biggest problem was a prolonged labour dispute. I can't find the details right now, I think it was in RAIL 254/548, but if memory serves me correctly there was a demarcation dispute within the works over who was going to perform certain tasks on the new design coaches. Hawksworth, again IIRC (bearing in mind it was his job to sort these things out) somewhat spun the situation to the directors, claiming that as they couldn't build new coaches they were very well advanced with catching up on the wartime backlog of repairs to the old stock... Edited February 23, 2019 by JimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted May 22, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2020 On 21/02/2019 at 14:59, gwrrob said: A bump for this thread to ask if anyone knows the differences between the Hawksworth brake thirds D131of '47 and the D133 of '49 please. On 21/02/2019 at 17:28, K14 said: Looking through both Harris (1993 edition) & Russell (Coaches Appendix Vol. 1), the only external difference I can see is that D.133 had a sliding vent fitted in the corridor side. The big difference appears to be internally; D.131 had wood veneer panelling & D.133 had Holoplast/Formica. All the D.133s were contract-built. I was about to ask the same question as Rob in a new thread after being unable to find any photos of the D.131 in Russell. Now I am going to dig out my copy of Harris (and hope that its recent enough to contain the photo). I need to see that sliding vent to work out if its going to be possible to add it. Then I need to renumber my other Hawksworth brake to 837 to go with 838 which was renumbered this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 I am not sure but one explanation I have heard is that some materials had to be substituted for lower quality equivalents due to post-war shortages. The vehicles would have looked pretty much the same externally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted June 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2020 On 22/05/2020 at 09:58, The Fatadder said: I was about to ask the same question as Rob in a new thread after being unable to find any photos of the D.131 in Russell. Now I am going to dig out my copy of Harris (and hope that its recent enough to contain the photo). A related diversion if i may about the Russell books. I have appendix volume 1 and was going to pick up volume 2 which i presume covers auto trailer and full brakes. I'm not sure how the pictorial record books compare - are they basically covering the same material or is one of these considered more useful for modellers? Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 http://www.gwr.org.uk/nolitt.html 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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