Minories in N

[scottystitch]

With some very generous assistance from Karhedron of this parish, I have drawn up the following plan for a smallish N gauge end to end, primarily to build for a platform (pun not intended) for a number of 4-CEPs I obtained recently on the cheap.

 

The plan is based on the Freezer Minories and is set "somewhere in London". I am imagining the right hand scenic break will be a roadway with the station at a lower level. Retaining wall along the back (top) edge, the front edge left open for viewing, apart from a low relief creamery/bottling plant.

 

Initial thoughts are to build the layout on timber frame-supported foam sheet, with point control and polarity switching achieved through wire in the tube and combined polarity/route switches. Control will be DCC with NCE. Fiddle yard will be cassettes.

 

I imagine primary passenger traffic to be 4-CEPs and loco-hauled services. I am thinking Farish 33, Standard 5, Standard 4T and two or three coaches, possibly Maunsels rather than Mk1s.

 

I have included a two road goods shed for 4 wheel CCTs and bogie vans along with 4 wheeled 12/14t vans and the odd open wagon. I thought Fish vans might be appropriate as well.

 

I wanted to use my growing collection of 6 wheel milk tanks and so a siding is included for a milk unloading platform. The milk I am imagining would be tripped from Clapham Junction a couple of times a day.

 

Arriving locos will be stranded at the buffers since there is no crossover. An M7 will be used to release the train engine and also to shunt the goods/milk wagons.

 

Any thoughts on the plan and the above traffic/stock musings?

 

[scottystitch]

I should have confirmed that the scenic section is 4ft6 by 1ft.

[ELTEL]

Hi

 

If you google a layout called Midchester a 00 layout by Stafford Railway Circle chairman Hugh Williams

 

It is pretty well that track plan, but from memory only one goods/Parcle siding at the front.

 

Spent many hours operating the layout which was Modern Image DCC with all sound fitted stock.

 

Great layout to operate

 

Good luck with the project

 

Terry

[JohnR]

Sounds good, and I look forward to it - but considering the location seems to be South London (from your stock choices) would it not be an idea to have the station on arches rather than in a cutting?

[knitpick]

Sounds good, and I look forward to it - but considering the location seems to be South London (from your stock choices) would it not be an idea to have the station on arches rather than in a cutting?

 

Initially tempted to agree but . . .

 

4CEP is South Eastern rather than South Central or South Western.  I believe that South Eastern and South Central both used the East London line to cross the Thames. So assume a fictional East End location and you could just get away with a terminus in cutting? 

 

Just a thought

[scottystitch]

My rational for a cutting was that it makes it easier to engineer a scenic break through a tunnel or overbridge, I'm not sure how to achieve that when the railway is elevated........

[Flying Pig]

Hide the exit with a tall building. There was a layout called "Modern Minories" on the old RMweb which did just that and in this case the bottling plant would do the job admirably.

 

I'm not sure I like the kick back access to the sidings - I'd prefer direct access from the main line. I don't have the facilities to draw this right now, but a left hand point (or Y) immediately after the point leading to Platform 3 would work. Note that parcels loading would probably take place in Platform 3, which also needs to be a little wider in my view.

[scottystitch]

Hide the exit with a tall building. There was a layout called "Modern Minories" on the old RMweb which did just that and in this case the bottling plant would do the job admirably.

 

I'm not sure I like the kick back access to the sidings - I'd prefer direct access from the main line. I don't have the facilities to draw this right now, but a left hand point (or Y) immediately after the point leading to Platform 3 would work. Note that parcels loading would probably take place in Platform 3, which also needs to be a little wider in my view.

Thanks for the input.

 

Re the kickback for access to the two track goods shed, I'm thinking the train would need to nose into the station proper (platform 3) anyway, since the loco wouldn't be allowed in the shed, so the fact that a kickback was needed didn't really matter. Plus it adds a little bit more interest I thought, allowing shunting to be carried out without fouling the station throat. 

[Flying Pig]

Put like that it makes sense. I wasn't thinking of a shed over the goods sidings.

[Guy Rixon]

The plan looks like it will work OK. I thought of a few tweaks that you might consider.

 

First, the two lines in the goods shed need to be alongside a goods platform. As drawn, there isn't room for a platform on both lines. The only case I can see where you have a line in a shed with no platform is where goods are transferred direct from train to road vehicles under cover.

 

Also concerning the shed, a closed shed will obscure a lot of the station if the layout is viewed from that side. You might prefer an open shed with a canopy over a central platform. Quite a lot of full-sized railways liked this arrangement for perishables depots; e.g. at Marylebone, St. Pancras, Birmingham Moor Street.

 

The short headshunt will make shunting tricky. You might want to go with the modeller's semi-cliche where the sidings extend in front of the fiddle yard. In this case, you can use the dairy as the visual break between the sidings and running lines.

 

Alternatively, if you mirror-image the layout top to bottom, so that the goods shed is on the departure side of the passenger platforms, you have a trailing connection to the yard and you probably don't need the headshunt, just shunt on the outgoing running-line.

[scottystitch]

The plan looks like it will work OK. I thought of a few tweaks that you might consider.

 

First, the two lines in the goods shed need to be alongside a goods platform. As drawn, there isn't room for a platform on both lines. The only case I can see where you have a line in a shed with no platform is where goods are transferred direct from train to road vehicles under cover.

 

Also concerning the shed, a closed shed will obscure a lot of the station if the layout is viewed from that side. You might prefer an open shed with a canopy over a central platform. Quite a lot of full-sized railways liked this arrangement for perishables depots; e.g. at Marylebone, St. Pancras, Birmingham Moor Street.

 

The short headshunt will make shunting tricky. You might want to go with the modeller's semi-cliche where the sidings extend in front of the fiddle yard. In this case, you can use the dairy as the visual break between the sidings and running lines.

 

Alternatively, if you mirror-image the layout top to bottom, so that the goods shed is on the departure side of the passenger platforms, you have a trailing connection to the yard and you probably don't need the headshunt, just shunt on the outgoing running-line.

 

Hi Guy, and thanks for the input.

 

The plan is quite rough, but the idea was to have an island platform between the two goods lines, with an overall shed, rather like this:

 

 

If space is going to be a problem, I can always reduce the goods to one line. I'm envisaging the goods shed would perhaps have capacity for half a dozen 12T vans per line, since Flying Pig suggests the parcels would be handled on platform 3.

 

In terms of the headshunt making things tricky, I have to say I rather like that idea. The shunt being handled in more than just one or two cuts.....

[Flying Pig]

 

Also concerning the shed, a closed shed will obscure a lot of the station if the layout is viewed from that side.

You could model just a few inches of a goods warehouse with the sidings disappearing into it.

[Karhedron]

Hi Scotty. Really looking forward to seeing this develop.

 

For the milk bottling plant, an alternative to the kick-back might be to have it adjacent to the station. The IMS used this arrangement with their Rossmore Road plant at Marylebone. The signalling diagram shows the milk dock near the bottom. In spite of its name, it was also used for parcels and perishables so would fit your scenario well.

 

 

The Milk dock survived until quite recently and had a second lease of life as a stabling platform for steam specials. The bottling plant is the rather striking angular building in the background of this shot.

 

https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/British-Mainline-Steam/i-mns8J5J/0/XL/GMP_Slide17626_4498_35028_Marylebone_170886-XL.jpg

[scottystitch]

Hi Matt,

 

Part of the problem, i think is that I haven't seen many photographs of Milk being unloaded in an urban setting. Apart from these two images:

 

https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5244/5375833175_8ccd162cd7_b.jpg

 

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5041/5375845579_36bb121a2f_b.jpg

 

 

Based on these then, if I were to make consider an island platform at the bottom of the plan, with the two line so either side, the milk could be unloaded on the bottom-most one and other goods handled on the adjacent line? Possibly a fence separating the two operationsAn impression of pipework could be modelled on the platform, presumably the milk being pumpe under the platform to the plant itself, which could be off scene or part/fully modelled across the front of the fiddle yard. What do you think.

 

Presuming a handful of milk vans were tripped from Clapham, where the original full length train would have been broken up for various destinations, would they still need to run with a passenger rated brake? Is that a 6 wheel LMS type or Stove in the second picture?

 

 

This is an interesting extract from http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMMP6M_Vauxhall_Mainline_Station_South_Lambeth_Place_London_UK   :

 

"Vauxhall was located next to a major creamery and milk bottling plant for United Dairies. The regular daily milk train was from Torrington, but milk trains from all over the West Country would stop at Clapham Junction in the evening, and reduce their length by half so that they did not block Vauxhall station while unloading. They would then proceed to Vauxhall, and pull into the "down" side platform, where a discharge pipe was provided to the creamery on the other side of the road. There was also pedestrian access from below the station, under the road to the depot, in the tunnel where the pipeline ran. Unloaded trains would then proceed to Waterloo, where they would reverse and return to Clapham Junction to pick up the other half of the train. The procedure was then repeated, so that the entire milk train was unloaded between the end of evening peak traffic and the start of the following morning."

[Guy Rixon]

Ah yes, the Minories goods-shed with central platform from the old PECO plans book. Takes me back...

 

Thing about a central platform is that you need a fair bit of width. Imagine working in the unloading gangs: you need enough space to manoeuvre the goods out of the vehicle, some stacking space, and space to barrow the goods from the stacks out to the end of the platform. And you need all this twice, once for each platform face. Pretty though the shed is in the 3D drawing, the platform is impractically narrow. But hey, it's a nice subject to model and real railways sometimes built things too tight.

[scottystitch]

Ah yes, the Minories goods-shed with central platform from the old PECO plans book. Takes me back...

 

Thing about a central platform is that you need a fair bit of width. Imagine working in the unloading gangs: you need enough space to manoeuvre the goods out of the vehicle, some stacking space, and space to barrow the goods from the stacks out to the end of the platform. And you need all this twice, once for each platform face. Pretty though the shed is in the 3D drawing, the platform is impractically narrow. But hey, it's a nice subject to model and real railways sometimes built things too tight.

Fair point,

 

But if I can find the space for a decent width platform, it should work....... I think I need to play around with some templates and some track and have a think about scale platform sizes.

[Flying Pig]

Hi Scotty. Really looking forward to seeing this develop.

 

For the milk bottling plant, an alternative to the kick-back might be to have it adjacent to the station. The IMS used this arrangement with their Rossmore Road plant at Marylebone.

 

The plan as posted already looks rather like Marylebone (I wonder why, eh Karhedron ).  Extending the headshunt into the fiddle yard to form the "Up Loop" increases the similarity and milk trains can now either arrive on the up loop, or set back from Platform 3 as before.  Off-peak loco hauled passenger trains can also set back into the loop and the loco run round using the Down Main and an imagined off-scene junction (peak time trains would use a turnover loco as CJF originally envisaged).  I've set the Loop slightly away from the main lines (exactly double spacing to help with fiddling arrangements) for visual effect - perhaps a signal box would fit between it and the Up Main to help with view blocking the main lines.

 

The siding front right also intrudes slightly into the fiddle space to give it a decent length - it could of course disappear off scene through a doorway or behind a building.

 

Note also the infamous Minories reverse curve in the main platforms which allows platform 2/3 to be a bit wider.

 

[Karhedron]

Ah yes, the Minories goods-shed with central platform from the old PECO plans book. Takes me back...

The closest I can find is probably the goods depot at Moor Street. Considerably wider than Peco's interpretation but you get the gist.

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

If you want to keep the parcels area open for better viewing then the parcels platforms at Penzance would be a good prototype to consider. You could make it straight rather than wedge-shaped and still get the same feeling. They are visible in this shot on the left of the passenger station.

 

 

[Zomboid]

I'd take one track into the shed, and finish the second outside (loading platform barely modelled, or off scene).

Might make that slip a single, too, removing the goods shed to milk depot link.

[Karhedron]

Part of the problem, i think is that I haven't seen many photographs of Milk being unloaded in an urban setting.

Yes, dairies do seem to have been somewhat camera-shy despite the fact they were often quite close to passenger stations. There is a shot here of tankers being unloaded at the Express Dairies plant at Morden. This facility was covered which may or may not suit your plans. If you had the bottling plant in your original location, it could help to disguise the scenic break perhaps?

 

 

Based on these then, if I were to make consider an island platform at the bottom of the plan, with the two line so either side, the milk could be unloaded on the bottom-most one and other goods handled on the adjacent line? Possibly a fence separating the two operations. An impression of pipework could be modelled on the platform, presumably the milk being pumpe under the platform to the plant itself, which could be off scene or part/fully modelled across the front of the fiddle yard. What do you think.

That sounds fine. To be fair, I have only seen those sort of steel pipes at Vauxhall, possibly because the platform was also used for passengers. At other bottling plants, flexible hoses seem to have been more common. You could probably have whichever arrangement you like the look of best. A fence would probably not be necessary but again, you could add one if you like. You might have been more likely to see a fence between the milk siding and the other lines in order to protect the dairy staff as they got under the tankers to connect the hoses. You can see the one at Marylebone in these shots.

 

 

Presuming a handful of milk vans were tripped from Clapham, where the original full length train would have been broken up for various destinations, would they still need to run with a passenger rated brake? Is that a 6 wheel LMS type or Stove in the second picture?

I believe that a passenger brake vehicle would still have been needed for both portions but I could be wrong. I cannot imagine a train being allowed to run from Clapham to Vauxhall with no guard in steam days. The picture at Vauxhall does indeed look like an ex-LMS Stove-R. Both the "M" in the number and the STOVE branding are visible in the photo despite the generally grubby appearance of the vehicle otherwise.

 

Stoves were popular on milk trains as their small size and low weight left more motive power for actually hauling the heavy tankers. Guards' vehicles on milk trains rarely conveyed much beyond the guard so a full sized BG like the GWR tended to use was a bit of an overkill. After nationalisation, Stoves became quite widely distributed due to their usefullness so were quite common on the Southern. Other prototypical vehicles would have included the Queen Mary brake vans and the Maunsell PBVs (4-wheeler available from Dapol, Bogie version available from Farish).

 

[scottystitch]

Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions.

 

Okay, I've had a think and taken on board some of your thoughts and the plan has evolved thus:

 

 

The milk siding kickback has gone and now the bottom goods line is for milk unloading, with pipework a la Vauxhall. The platform width is now a scale 30 feet which is a rough estimate based on that in the Penzance images using the width of the cars as a guide. Platform 2/3 is a similar width since platform 3 is for parcels as well as passengers. 

 

I've imagined a disused branch line along the front of the fiddle yard, bounded by a retaining wall with these sort of flats above the yard:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5252123,-0.1639252,3a,46.2y,215.03h,84.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg0KGMG11aFghfUC07pHSjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

These would be on a removable board in case of fiddle yard/cassette issues.

 

Maybe the disused line was a goods only affair, either way part of it is now overgrown. The thing is, would this have led the authorities to lift the head shunt? Maybe it could be used to stable EMUs between turns in the off-peak?

 

Whilst trying to remain reasonably prototypical, or rather, plausible, I'm also conscious of trying to make the layout interesting to operate for myself so I appreciate there may be inaccuracies, but I think this latest iteration looks quite good. I don't intend to exhibit the layout.

 

The only impression of a station building will be something akin to what BurscoughCurves has done with his Halifax West Powell Street, although not as grand. Maybe two stories with a flat-ish roof. And the platform canopies extending out, including on the goods platform.

 

 

As always, comments welcome.