More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

Some trucks, then. Well-known to enthusiasts I'm sure, but isn't it nice.

 

 

Caption: Wellingborough goods sidings on the Midland Railway, Northamptonshire, 5 April 1894. Source: Getty Images, embedding permitted. 

[magmouse]

35 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

but isn't it nice

Sure is!

 

But I am curious about the dirt marks on the end of the nearest wagon - almost like it had gone dirt-track biking. Looking closely at the other wagons, several of them have the same, though less pronounced. Any thoughts as to what might cause it? I’ve never noticed the effect before.

 

Nick. 

[stevel]

2 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Sure is!

 

But I am curious about the dirt marks on the end of the nearest wagon - almost like it had gone dirt-track biking. Looking closely at the other wagons, several of them have the same, though less pronounced. Any thoughts as to what might cause it? I’ve never noticed the effect before.

 

Nick. 

that dirt lines up with the wheels, so could be dirty water marks.

[Dave John]

A good point Steval. Not thrown up by the wagon itself, but by the wheels of an adjacent wagon as if the whole train had gone through a large muddy wet section. It would be interesting to see the other ends of the wagons. 

 

 

 

 

[phil_sutters]

The wagon with raves looks very similar to the S&DJR's peat wagons, at least one of which I need to recreate for the Wharf. Even after the peat processing plant turned over to anthracite based smokeless fuel pellets, some of those wagons seem to have remained in service.

[kitpw]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Some trucks

...and (I count) nine "shunters", mostly standing to attention, and although a wonderful record of wagons/trucks and their loads it's also a depiction of serious activity:  did they all turn out specially for the photo or were large numbers of shunters the norm when a train arrived for sorting? 

Kit PW

[Mikkel]

I wonder if it's a posed photo. The wagons are neatly spread out and the shunters look like they've been asked to stand still and take up particular poses (see man grabbing the brake, and the one holding the point lever).  

[magmouse]

7 hours ago, Dave John said:

A good point Steval. Not thrown up by the wagon itself, but by the wheels of an adjacent wagon as if the whole train had gone through a large muddy wet section. It would be interesting to see the other ends of the wagons. 

Well, yes, but - trains don’t usually go through muddy, wet conditions, to the extent the wheels spray mud up onto adjacent vehicles. I wonder if there had been flooding in the area, or some such unusual event to cause this effect.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

22 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if it's a posed photo. The wagons are neatly spread out and the shunters look like they've been asked to stand still and take up particular poses (see man grabbing the brake, and the one holding the point lever).  

I would agree this is a posed shot.

 

It’s also interesting to see the condition of the private owner wagons in the background - quite grubby lettering compared to some of the MR wagons, especially the foreground one. I am thinking about this in relation to the discussion I read in a thread recently about how PO wagons were repainted more often than railway company wagons, and so were on average cleaner.

 

Nick.

[Regularity]

MR wagon lettering was in a dirt-resistant paint formula, so remained clearly visible, especially as the wagon bodies became darker with age.

[magmouse]

2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

MR wagon lettering was in a dirt-resistant paint formula, so remained clearly visible, especially as the wagon bodies became darker with age.

 

Good point - do you know if the MR had a patent on the dirt-resistant paint? Otherwise one would have thought it would be more widely adopted.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Some trucks, then. Well-known to enthusiasts I'm sure, but isn't it nice.

 

One of DY611 - DY613, not sure which, but also MRSC 65711, which has a little bit more on the left:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail.]

 

and familiar, in a more cropped version, as Plate 49 in Essery's Midland Wagons. (Also enlargements, Plates 21 and 22.)

 

There was a discussion a while back in the Midland Railway Society Journal about the date and location - it's evident that the short arms on the signal gantry on the left are not yet in use. 

 

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if it's a posed photo. The wagons are neatly spread out and the shunters look like they've been asked to stand still and take up particular poses (see man grabbing the brake, and the one holding the point lever).  

 

Would one quite go to the trouble? Perhaps the official photographer (whose name I know in principle but never remember) simply waited until there was a picturesque distribution then shouted "hold that pose".  

 

Wellingborough was the half-way point for the Toton-Brent coal traffic, with a pair of square shed housing a myriad of mineral engines, and extensive yards for re-marshalling.

 

10 hours ago, magmouse said:

But I am curious about the dirt marks on the end of the nearest wagon

 

Now I shall be on the look-out... Perhaps the dirt was thrown up not on the main line but in colliery sidings and other such insalubrious places that only mineral wagons dared go.

 

There are three D299s and one D351 identifiable - or rather, at this date, one should say three 8 ton high side wagons and one 8 ton high side wagon with end door, as I don't think the diagram book was introduced until to 20th century. The nearest high side has the 8A grease axleboxes fitted up until c. 1889; all three have the vertical strap between the end pillars - annoyingly, the end door wagon is showing its end door. The photographic evidence is increasingly convincing me that the end strap was a standard feature of high side and similar wagons up to the early 1890s; high side Lot 327 of 1893 is the earliest lot that can be identified as not having it [Midland Wagons Plate 92]. In other words, as many as 37,000 out of 62,000 of D299 may have built with these straps, including all those with 8A axleboxes, along with the first 1,500 - 2,000 of the 9,000 end door D351 wagons, and the first lot of 1,000 of the 2,100 hopper wagons, D343. There were, of course, a matching straps on the inside of the wagon.

 

There are a couple of ex-private owner wagons in Midland livery but the majority of wagons in the photo are dumb-buffered private owners, even after over a decade of the Midland buying up those running on its lines. By 1894, some 16,000 new private owner wagons, to the 1887 RCH specification, had been registered by the Midland but none of these are evident!

 

There's a line of Whitwell Coal Co. wagons. There is a place-name on the right of each wagon which I think is Poplar - so this is presumably a London coal merchant, not the colliery in County Durham! On the left, behind one ex-PO wagon and next to the one with coke raves, is Stephenson Clarke No. 1035. Note the narrow top plank - or is this a wide through top plank that has split? Next to it, Lowther & Cameron - another London coal merchant, with depots in Surrey, who went bankrupt in 1900, creditors getting a mere 10½d in the pound - 4.375%.

 

So, was it the case that the Midland had more success buying up colliery wagon fleets than those of London merchants - who might claim their wagons were non-dom, residing south of the Thames?

Edited May 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Whitwell Coal Co

"the London trade directories for the Whitwell Coal Company ... shows the company to be based at Hope Wharf, 340, Rotherhithe Street and 27, Church Street, Rotherhithe. The proprietor is named as John Maud Ogden who was the owner of the Whitwell Colliery in County Durham. The company remained at 189 East India Dock Road and at the London Midland Region Railway Depot at West India Dock Road until the late 1960s".  From Tower Hamlets Local History Library & Archives.  Poplar and Co Durham in one hit - enterprising! 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, kitpw said:

"the London trade directories for the Whitwell Coal Company ... shows the company to be based at Hope Wharf, 340, Rotherhithe Street and 27, Church Street, Rotherhithe. The proprietor is named as John Maud Ogden who was the owner of the Whitwell Colliery in County Durham. The company remained at 189 East India Dock Road and at the London Midland Region Railway Depot at West India Dock Road until the late 1960s".  From Tower Hamlets Local History Library & Archives.  Poplar and Co Durham in one hit - enterprising! 

 

Excellent find! Presumably, given the Rotherhide and Poplar addresses the main or original business was shipping coal from the Wear, railway coal being an addition to the business. I doubt those trucks in the Wellingborough photo have truckled all the way up from County Durham - having established a customer base in London, Ogden was supplying them with types of coal his own pit did not yield.

[kitpw]

Stephen - there seem to be quite a few records in the Tower Hamlets archive for Whitwell - TH is not an area I get to very often nowadays and the papers only available in the reading room.  However, the documents are summarised here: http://185.121.204.36/calmview/GetMultimedia.ashx?db=Catalog&type=default&fname=27\951db2-44e4-4023-bc99-ea64b9ce10c4.pdf and include reference  to agreements with railway companies about placing "lobbies" (interesting term, I wonder what they were - offices? micro-depots?), "Agreement with the Midland Railway Company re stacking coal, coke or patent fuel at South Tottenham Station, 11 Dec 1920" amongst others.  It would be interesting to look closer at how their business worked, both mining and coal merchanting, but I would broadly agree that it's likely that selling coal, transporting coal and mining coal were not necessarily fully integrated activities.

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Stephen - there seem to be quite a few records in the Tower Hamlets archive for Whitwell - TH is not an area I get to very often nowadays and the papers only available in the reading room.  However, the documents are summarised here: http://185.121.204.36/calmview/GetMultimedia.ashx?db=Catalog&type=default&fname=27\951db2-44e4-4023-bc99-ea64b9ce10c4.pdf and include reference  to agreements with railway companies about placing "lobbies" (interesting term, I wonder what they were - offices? micro-depots?), "Agreement with the Midland Railway Company re stacking coal, coke or patent fuel at South Tottenham Station, 11 Dec 1920" amongst others.  It would be interesting to look closer at how their business worked, both mining and coal merchanting, but I would broadly agree that it's likely that selling coal, transporting coal and mining coal were not necessarily fully integrated activities.

Kit PW

 

Some interesting stuff there on the wagon front - references to dealings with the Licoln Wagon Co and with Moy - in the latter's capacity as a wagon business rather than as coal factor. To say nothing of the "vitriolic correspondence"!

 

I've mentioned the Midland Railway Coal Merchants Register book, in private hands but seen by Ian Pope, which records the space let to each coal merchant at each station, which would give the railway company's side of the picture. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

... but there was also a Whitwell Colliery at Whitwell, Derbyshire, on the Midland's Mansfield and Worksop line. However, that was sunk by the Shireoaks firm so any wagons were no doubt lettered for them - can anyone make anything of the bottom right photo here?

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

The wagon with raves looks very similar to the S&DJR's peat wagons, at least one of which I need to recreate for the Wharf. Even after the peat processing plant turned over to anthracite based smokeless fuel pellets, some of those wagons seem to have remained in service.

 

As I understand it, when the S&DJR wagon stock was divided between the Midland and the South-Western in 1914, these peat wagons were retained, along with service stock.

 

Do you have any photos of them?

[wagonman]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Beckerlegg photo in D. Hunt, R.J. Essery  and F. James, Midland Engines No. 4 The ‘700’ Class double-frame goods engines (Wild Swan, 2002) to which I was referring is also in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, though sadly cropped to show less of the wagon:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 81647.]

 

In the version of the photo in Midland Engines, the wagon's number is 317 so it may well be a close relative of No. 333 in the Warminster tale.

 

How would such a wagon get to Warminster? Do we see it here about to be handed over to the M&SWJR to run via Andover to Salisbury before being handed over to the Great Western, or would it take a more direct route via Bristol? I suppose much would depend on the rates being offered by the Midland's and the Great Western's mineral agents.

 

I suspect it went via Bristol as that was a designated hand-over point for MR>GWR traffic and there were regular trains from Bristol over the Salisbury  branch.

 

I have also seen a Walsall Wood wagon at Calne which would also presumably have travelled via Bristol.

 

Traffic from the MR>MSWJR would presumably ave been handed over at the High Street yard in Cheltenham and so would not have reached Lansdown Road.

[Rail-Online]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

... but there was also a Whitwell Colliery at Whitwell, Derbyshire, on the Midland's Mansfield and Worksop line. However, that was sunk by the Shireoaks firm so any wagons were no doubt lettered for them - can anyone make anything of the bottom right photo here?

Whitwell Colliery was always owned by Shireoaks Colliery Co. and the wagons lettered as such. They worked down to London over both the MR and GC route. The owning company had three collieries, two only on the GCR and the other, Whitwell on the MR but with GCR running powers (the GCR collected three train loads of wagons a day just from Whitwell Colliery!), therefore I think Shireoaks Coll Co got favourable rates from the GCR so favoured them.

 

The Durham Whilwell pit I know very little about but have seen a drawing of the headgear and it appeared very small - of course it may have been enlarged.

Tony 

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

Good point - do you know if the MR had a patent on the dirt-resistant paint? Otherwise one would have thought it would be more widely adopted.

 

Nick.

It was the lettering. Some formulation of oxide, I think. Possibly more expensive/dangerous than normal white. I think it was more a case that it didn’t fade, rather than it didn’t get dirty - I could have worded that better.

[Andy Hayter]

Quite possibly the MR switched from the previously common white based on lead oxide (white lead) which on exposure to sulphurous smoke would convert to grey then  black lead sulphide; and instead used new fangled zinc oxide.  On exposure to smoke this also converts to the sulphide but zinc sulphide is white.  

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Regularity said:

It was the lettering. Some formulation of oxide, I think. Possibly more expensive/dangerous than normal white. I think it was more a case that it didn’t fade, rather than it didn’t get dirty - I could have worded that better.

 

I can't find this in either Midland Style or Midland Wagons, which is bothering me, but I understood it to be an oxalic white - as used in whitening washing detergents, and also used for painting the hulls of wooden boats, as a preservative. In the context of Midland wagon lettering, I'm sure I've seen it described as "self-cleaning". It's clear that it would fade after a considerable time in service, as some wagon photos illustrate:

 

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY2494.]

 

Whether other companies used this type of paint when they adopted large initials, or for lettering in general, I don't know; I can't recall it being mentioned.

 

4 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Quite possibly the MR switched from the previously common white based on lead oxide (white lead) which on exposure to sulphurous smoke would convert to grey then  black lead sulphide; and instead used new fangled zinc oxide.  On exposure to smoke this also converts to the sulphide but zinc sulphide is white.  

 

The LMS made the change from white lead to zinc white as the main ingredient of wagon grey but I've not seen it mentioned in a Midland context.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

There's one wagon in the Wellingborough photo that we haven't touched on, the dropside wagon between two Midland wagons:

 

 

No discernible markings. The sides of a Midland high-side were 2' 10¾" - five 6⅞" planks plus the ⅜" capping strip - the sides of the dropside wagon come up to the top of the fourth plank of the high-sides, about 27" (the wagon's floor is a bit higher) - maybe three 9" planks. Most dropside wagons (of any denomination) had sides around 21" - anything more would get rather heavy to handle. I have the impression that the wagon is shorter than 15 ft.

[wagonman]

I remember reading somewhere about the MR adding oxalic acid to its white wagon paint but , of course, I can't remember where I read it. I had the impression that  the very mention of it implied the use of oxalic acid was not usual.

 

If anyone has the time and/or inclination to search the Lincoln Wagon & Engine Co records there are housed at the Royal Bank of Scotland archives in Edinburgh. Where else would they be? I was planning a trip BC but may not make it now.

 

 

Richard