More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[billbedford]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Very true! But the size of the wheels wasn't important from an operational point of view, unlike the length, width, and height of platform above rails. 

 

Oh I realise that now, but I had an 'interesting' half hour trying to work out how the loaders would deal with wheels that poked out through the wagon floor. 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Seriously, though, it is interesting how close the two figures are. Thinking about loading a tank onto a warwell, the screw-jacks weren't just belt and braces.

 

Homework:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-2014-066.]

 

Incidentally, this is No. 31578, which is a renewal of a lot 43 wagon. It has a number of curious features for a D333 wagon - oil axleboxes, off-centre vee-hanger with short brake lever, joggle to the vee-hanger, and, I think, brake cross-shaft. I suspect this makes it one of the two renewals built to lot 647 of August 1906. The date would fit with the cross-shaft, I think if we could see the other side we'd find the left-facing brake lever of the simple Morton clutch brake. (It's not a 12 ton wagon, D370, since the numbers of all twelve of those are known.)

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, kitpw said:

https://www.garmendale.co.uk/the-john-fowler-bb1-ploughing-engine-at-speed/

"John Fowler BB1 (Tiger) Ploughing Engine..... When loaded with coal and water, it weighs 21 tons...." (if self-propelled it would need coal and water).

 

But that's an engine built in 1930; I'm supposing that it represents peak development of these machines (which I suppose was around the turn of the century). Plus, I stick to my suspicion that it would be shipped from the works empty. (Farm moves I confess would be a different matter, as presumably the engine would have been hard at work transporting all the other farm equipment to the station, before being last to board, and would be needed in working order on arrival at the destination.)

[magmouse]

OK, so I was thinking more of WW2 tanks. How heavy is a WW1 tank - as much as Kit’s traction engine?

 

Incidentally, I love the somewhat superfluous text “loading ramp”, in best cursive writing, like an explanatory label in a museum.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, magmouse said:

OK, so I was thinking more of WW2 tanks. How heavy is a WW1 tank - as much as Kit’s traction engine?

 

Well over - upwards of 30 tons, hence the 30 ton and 35 ton capacity of the bogie Rectanks. Well over the capacity of a traction or implement wagon! (Other photos in the same sequence show a Rectank up against the loading contraption and, as you said, hence the jacks.)

Edited February 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I suppose at an end loading dock, or driven (hauled) off onto a side platform, if the engine had a tight enough turning circle? 

 You may remember the photo I messaged you of the six Babcock steam rollers being delivered to Highbridge Wharf, for W.W.Buncombe's firm. There was no end loading dock at the Wharf, so I surmise that they must have come off the wagons via a temporary side ramp. As there was a huge timber yard there, finding materials to build a ramp should not have been a problem. There were also odd piles of sleepers visible in some photos of the Wharf. I suppose the clearances on some machine wagons might have precluded turning engines' wheels or rollers to drive off sideways. The ones in the Highbridge photo seem to have had plenty of room to manoeuvre.

Edited February 24, 2023 by phil_sutters
correction in text

[Asterix2012]

There was an old GEM white metal kit of a Midland implement wagon 

 

Any idea what diagram it was for

 

Sorry I cannot find an image of the kit

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

 You may remember the photo I messaged you of the seven Babcock steam rollers being delivered to Highbridge Wharf, for W.W.Buncombe's firm. 

 

Yes indeed. I was waiting for you to mention that! Unfortunately the photo is now missing and I don't think I saved it. But according to my reply to you, I had identified them as D313 and D314.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

There was an old GEM white metal kit of a Midland implement wagon 

 

Any idea what diagram it was for

 

Sorry I cannot find an image of the kit

 

No pic, no ID! I've tried looking for a catalogue or list to no avail. GEM isn't a very helpful search term!

Edited February 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[MR Chuffer]

30 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

an old GEM white metal kit

I have one, it appears a direct match to Plate 308 in Midland Wagons vol. 2, 31562 of lot 43. I bought it online but suspect it's a little wider than scale and also a tad shorter but in a mixed train, you can't really tell.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I have one, it appears a direct match to Plate 308 in Midland Wagons vol. 2, 31562 of lot 43. I bought it online but suspect it's a little wider than scale and also a tad shorter but in a mixed train, you can't really tell.

 

An odd choice. You can't use it after c. 1904 or so, but rather than throw it away...

[MR Chuffer]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

You can't use it after c. 1904

No one who ever sees or will see my layout will know that, they'll just marvel at its traction engine or farm implement load....

[MR Chuffer]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

farm removals would probably have been good business

I was minded to look up Longridge in Disused Stations, where near the end in the section After Closure to Passenger Services, it details the complexities of a January 1936 farm move and wagon loadings. 

[magmouse]

I knew I'd seen it somewhere:

 

http://www.midlandrailway.org.uk/derby-registers/images/nrm/1448.jpg

 

A well wagon, of course, so with the wheels even closer to the ends than the implement wagons, helping avoid the emergency Kit so delightfully illustrated. The supervisor seems confident, and the selected driver looks like the lightweight kind, kept on a strict diet for this particular work.

 

Then there is this:

 

http://www.midlandrailway.org.uk/derby-registers/DY11917

 

I don't think our weight calculations had allowed for assorted shovels, carpets, and other paraphernalia.

 

To the left we see a carriage truck pressed into service for what looks to be a less heavy agricultural machine.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I knew I'd seen it somewhere:

 

The first photo is from a set of photos of activity at the temporary sidings laid for the Derby Royal Show of June 1906. The wagon is either a 15 ton implement wagon, D313, or its 18 ton sibling, D314. Note that the D299 behind is one with the vertical strap between the end pillars.

 

Another in this set shows a D311 15 ton trolley (discussed earlier) with load - note how the wheels have been removed to get the van within the loading gauge. That looks like another D313 or D314 implement wagon behind the lamppost:

 

 

[Embedded link to DY1447 at Derby Registers.]

 

Note also the Great Western V6 iron mink - other photos show that this event attracted an eclectic mix of wagons and NCPS from various companies.

 

 The second photo is part of a set of the Derby Royal Show, dated June 1921. (See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Show#Back_on_the_road_from_1906_to_1962.)

Fortunately for my sanity, close inspection of the photo shows that this is a M&GN vehicle.

 

From the same set, a Great Northern implement wagon, similar to the M&GN one (or perhaps that should be the other way around, like the photo):

 

 

[Embedded link to DY11911 at Derby Registers.]

Edited February 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

3 hours ago, magmouse said:

I knew I'd seen it somewhere:

...well found Nick!  That exactly answers my question about how these vehicles were got on and off the railway - clearly the relative weights of the wagon/load and the very short lever arm provided by the axle position relative to the buffer ends of the well wagon (together with the driver's lack of a decent breakfast) allows the guv'nor to keep his bowler on.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Another in this set shows a D311 15 ton trolley (discussed earlier) with load - note how the wheels have been removed

Probably gave rise to the expression "...the wheels coming off..."

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by kitpw
typos

[kitpw]

On 23/02/2023 at 09:23, Compound2632 said:

Chiseled or branded?

 

I should probably post more detail about this on Swan Hill rather than clutter the D299 thread but I've done a couple of experimental "brandings".  The initial result is as below which I find reasonably pursuasive for branding!  (The "G" had a very high ping factor and cannot be found).  Nevertheless, since these "irons" are only 2.5mm high (and I haven't been to Specsavers) stamping is going to be easier...

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by kitpw

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, kitpw said:

clutter the D299 thread

 

Indeed, how dare you presume to interfere with the steady and undeviating flow of this topic!

[Compound2632]

Speaking of which, @Grahams brought this photo to my attention. I think the original must be an official, but I've not yet tracked it down:

 

 

[Embedded link to Wikimedia Commons.]

 

This is a D305 lowside wagon of lot 631 or 636 (built 1905-1907) with the early form of Morton clutch brake with both levers facing the same end of the wagon and brake blocks on one side only. it's evidently fresh out of the paintshop. The lack of painted number is curious. 

 

Containers A30-A59 were built at Bromsgove to a 1926 lot according to Essery and Morgan, The LMS Wagon, so the photo was probably take soon after their completion.

 

The black-painted drawbar plate caught my attention. Looking through Midland Wagons, this goes back to at least the late 1890s though it's hardly noticeable in photos of anything other than ex-works wagons.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, kitpw said:

 

I should probably post more detail about this on Swan Hill rather than clutter the D299 thread but I've done a couple of experimental "brandings".  The initial result is as below which I find reasonably pursuasive for branding!  (The "G" had a very high ping factor and cannot be found).  Nevertheless, since these "irons" are only 2.5mm high (and I haven't been to Specsavers) stamping is going to be easier...

 

 

 

 

Nice!

 

The punches I ordered on eBay came today. They form a nicely subtle indentation, as long as you get the angle right - if they aren't exactly vertical, some of the letter is missing. It's hard to get the letters level and spaced, but a jig of some kind would fix that.

 

 

Having said that, the letter shapes are quite a way from what they need to be - the W should go all the way up in the middle, and the G should have no horizontal stroke and a rounded left hand side, not straight.

 

I have therefore decided to stick with my technique with a miniature 'chisel' made from a ground down sewing pin:

 

 

You will notice my judicious choice of wagon number... If I was doing a lot of these, I might persevere with the stamps, but I am only planning a couple of wooden solebar wagons.

 

Nick.

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

miniature 'chisel' made from a ground down sewing pin

I think the pin chisel lettering will sit very well - it's looking convincing to my eye and, I agree, the stamped letters are a bit too far from the original letter form.

 

Incidentally, I think the "G" letter form on the sole bar of the upended wagon is the one with the horizontal serif pointing outwards, with no vertical stroke, so it looks very much like a "C".  (The serif should be truly horizontal: what's shown below is probably a perspective affect from the photo from which the G was taken).

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

I've been practising origami, with reference to possibly the most useful article ever published in Midland Record, Bob Essery's Sheets, Ropes and Sacks [No. 3, pp. 41-58], specifically the LMS 1936 instructions on how to fold a wagon sheet. First, I made up a sheet, 21' 0" x 14' 4" (84.0 mm x 57.3 mm), from 80 g/m2 recycled paper:

 

 

 

You can see the photo was taken after my first attempt at folding!

 

The instructions show the left side folded over as far as the first seam on the right side, then folded back:

 

 

Then fold the right side over and back again:

 

 

Sides to middle, leaving a gap in the middle:

 

 

Then each side should be folded over by a quarter, then again, and again. This is where it goes pear-shaped:

 

 

At my second attempt, I glued with slightly diluted PVA at each stage, pressing the the folds in a clamp. Also, rather than folding in by quarters, I folded by thirds - only two folds. Then I was able to get to the final step of folding the two halves together:

 

 

A quick splash of black acrylic later, we've got a foreign (Cambrian) wagon that had arrived with a sheeted load from Welshpool ready to be returned empty home, complete with its sheet, avoiding demurrage on the sheet of 6d for the first day and 1s each day thereafter:

 

 

(There ought to be a couple of coiled ropes too.)

 

The instructions say that folded sheets should be stood on end but I don't really see how that works for one sheet loose in a wagon. Also they should be stored under cover. The BR period instructions, paragraphs 147-148, speak of sheets loaded in wagons that are then sheeted but this is for return to the sheet stores; at this date the business of returning foreign wagon home promptly was ancient history. These instructions also show a slightly simpler method of folding.

 

Sheets, Ropes and Sacks bears repeated careful reading. Essery quotes from W.M. Ackworth, The Railways of England (John Murray, 1900), who, writing of the Midland's Sheet Stores (at Sheet Stores Junction, Trent, of course), says:

 

"Some ten thousand [sheets] are turned out new every year; and nine times that number come back annually to be repaired and redressed, though there are repairing establishments at Birmingham, Leeds, and St. Pancras as well."

 

On the face of it, this implies a stock of sheets of upwards of 100,000, or about two for every Midland open wagon in goods traffic. That number might come down a bit if one supposes that a sheet might have a time in service of nine months or so, so a considerable number would go to Trent twice in any one year.

 

Ackworth also writes:

 

"The manager of the stores has recently designed an ingenious folding trestle which runs from end to end of the truck, and acts like a ridge-pole to form a sloping roof, and so prevent water from lodging."

 

This might explain why there's nothing relating to wagon trestles in the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Register, despite several references in other documents such as Superintendent of the Line's circulars, if they originated with the Stores Department and were procured by them. I'd still like to see a photo, though!

Edited February 25, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The instructions say that folded sheets should be stood on end but I don't really see how that works for one sheet loose in a wagon. Also they should be stored under cover. The BR period instructions, paragraphs 147-148, speak of sheets loaded in wagons that are then sheeted but this is for return to the sheet stores; at this date the business of returning foreign wagon home promptly was ancient history. These instructions also show a slightly simpler method of folding.

 

The GWR 1936 General Appendix also states that "all open wagons containing sheets sent from point to point for use, repairs, or any other purpose, must be sheeted." Covered goods vans are not to be used unless specially authorised.

 

Some routes have wagons run specifically for the purpose of transporting sheets, and for branch lines served only by mixed trains, there is a clause that allows sheets to be put in the guard's van if no open truck is available.

 

There is also a section on what to do with sheets infested with weevil - they are to be labelled "weevily - for cleansing" and sent to Swindon to go in the "steam heated insulated chamber" to "exterminate the pest".

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, magmouse said:

The GWR 1936 General Appendix also states that "all open wagons containing sheets sent from point to point for use, repairs, or any other purpose, must be sheeted."

 

So, logically, if my Birmingham goods station has received one sheeted Cambrian open from Welshpool, it should be sent back empty (there being no back load available) and with the sheet back on, since I can't leave the sheet unsheeted...

 

I was trying to avoid sheeting my Cambrian open, since I don't know what a Cambrian sheet of c. 1902 looked like!

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

So, logically, if my Birmingham goods station has received one sheeted Cambrian open from Welshpool, it should be sent back empty (there being no back load available) and with the sheet back on, since I can't leave the sheet unsheeted...

That does seem to be the implication, though I don’t think the rules explicitly mention sheets from other railway companies.

 

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was trying to avoid sheeting my Cambrian open, since I don't know what a Cambrian sheet of c. 1902 looked like!

I feel your pain - we could really do with some consolidated information on the sheet designs for the pre-grouping companies at different periods.

 

Nick.