More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Rowsley17D]

10 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

HenryMusgrave, Keighley.  BH3 Plate or page 45.Beadmans built no 152 though that could be 1&2 built in the late 1880's.

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated. There are another 43 traders with no photos known, 

 

Jamie

 

 

 

Jamie, plate 45 is wagon No 33, a Chas Roberts & Co Ltd built May 1923, registered to LNER, side doors only, brakes both sides, oil 116 axle boxes. Livery slate grey body, black ironwork, white letters shaded black.

 

Dimensions  

Over headstocks 16' 6"

Body width 7' 11"

Plank widths 5 @ 7", 1 @ 8", 1@ 9"

Wheel base 9'

 

Plate 46 is also a Musgrave wagon a 1923 standard 8 plank built in 1928 No 2. Built for the "new" company.

[Penlan]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:10, Compound2632 said:

The LNWR D20 small cattle wagon is a recent introduction by London Road Models.

I believe I saw recently LRM are going to/or have a new website, but I can't find any details of the 'Small Cattle Wagon'.  I shall only look to adding one to my fleet...... 
A link would be appreciated - Yes I could contact John directly, but hopefully others will be seeking kits too 😎

[t-b-g]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:10, Compound2632 said:

A jolly morning at ExpoEM, with a haul of wagonery:

 

 

(Apologies for the lack of focus.) Hudson Vol. 2 a gift from @Andy Vincent, one of whose Meon Valley Models 3D bodies is also in the photo, purchased from the Brassmasters stand along with one of their etched underframe kits; good to speak to Tony @Rail-Online there. 

 

The LNWR D20 small cattle wagon is a recent introduction by London Road Models. According to LNWR Wagons Vol. 1, 324 small wagons were on the books in 1902, built between 1876 and 1882. It also mentions that such wagons were ordered in 1878 for the Holyhead American livestock traffic, which is interesting in view of MR Traffic Committee minute 16,720 of 1 November 1870:

 

Cattle Wagons

                              The inconvenience the Company were subject to, in consequence of not having a class of Wagon at a similar size, viz. 13 ft 6 in long, as those which are provided by other Companies, with whom the Midland are in direct competition for the Irish Cattle Traffic, having been explained, it was

                              Resolved, that the Locomotive Committee be requested to provide 50 Cattle Wagons of the dimensions named.

 

So what was it about the imported (Irish and/or American) cattle trade that led to a preference for short trucks?

 

I sidled up to the LRM stand as @Jol Wilkinson was in conversation with John Gowers, chair of the LNWR Society. I was perturbed to told that they had just been talking about me...

 

One of the second-hand traders' stalls yielded a couple of whitemetal treasures: a David Geen LSWR 10 ton covered goods wagon (SR D1410) - the wider-planked version which I believe is more appropriate to my period than the Cambrian kit - and ABS LSWR 10 ton open; both things I've been on the lookout for for a Huntley & Palmers diorama.

 

I had an interesting chat with the Cambrian Models man about his progress with the Coopercraft kits. He showed me a sample of the sprue from the GW wagons that has the solebar, brake gear, etc. His machine works at a lower pressure than the molds were designed for (whereas Mr Dunn's had been a higher pressure machine), with the result that the plastic isn't flowing perfectly into some of the finer parts such as the brake lever and the axleguard keeper plates. So, work in progress. I bought a couple of the Cambrian Hurst Nelson wagon kit - which passes for a generic 1890s wagon as well as any; maybe it'll pass for a Beadman wagon?

 

Good also to meet @Chas Levin and his wife - more faces to names - and Paul @Worsdell forever (and wife/partner); it was a particular pleasure to see The Depots, Rosedale East in the flesh at last having been following it closely on here. There is an excellent selection of layouts this year. (Code for: many pre-grouping and not too much diesel!) I'm planning to take my camera along tomorrow. There will be many much better photos than mine posted, I'm certain, but there are one or two features I'm keen to snap.

 

Nearly forgot: also a pleasure to put my six questions to @t-b-g; the sixth I have now answered for myself by looking in Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1, p. 112, where there is a photo of a GC 10-ton open with sheet bar, built by Birmingham RC&W Co. in 1904. However, the photo shows the Williams patent arrangement with catch, as used by the Midland, rather than the arrangement with the semi-circular guide with locking notch, as used by the SE and GW. Tony's model had the latter arrangement; he said it was built a good while ago and I think it is likely that he had a photo or drawing of a different wagon to the one in Tatlow.

 

Having a few minutes spare this morning I trawled through my old Railway Modeller back copies and found the drawing I used for the sheets open GCR wagon. It was by Kenneth Werrett and was published in the November 1974 edition. It says in the notes that the dimensions were taken in 1917 so I would presume that Mr. Werrett is no longer around but he published a rather lovely series of pre grouping wagon drawings in RM from around 1972 to 1980. They are the earliest and latest ones I have anyway but I don't have a full set of magazines so there may be earlier or later ones.

 

They covered many pregrouping companies and were very nicely drawn.

[t-b-g]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:10, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by t-b-g
Delete triplicate post

[t-b-g]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:10, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by t-b-g
Delete duplicate post

[Penlan]

t-b-g, I think compound2632 has said a lot more than nothing a couple of times 😎

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Penlan said:

t-b-g, I think compound2632 has said a lot more than nothing a couple of times 😎

 

I hit the "submit reply" box and nothing happened, so I hit it again and it said I had to wait 53 seconds before submitting it again, so I waited 53 seconds and hit the button again and nothing happened so I gave up. Then I looked at "New Content" again it was there 3 times.

 

It baffles the living daylights out of me sometimes.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Penlan said:

t-b-g, I think compound2632 has said a lot more than nothing a couple of times 😎

 

Too much, too often!

 

24 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

They covered many pregrouping companies and were very nicely drawn.

 

The Ken Werrett drawings have been discussed somewhere up-thread. They are superb pieces of draughtsmanship which, I think, makes them a trap for the unwary - precision mistaken for accuracy. Comparing his drawings of Midland wagons with the C&W DO originals, one soon finds inaccuracies of one sort or another. A number of what appear to be his originals have turned up in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, which led Tony Overton into doing a bit of research, which I summarise from his email:

 

Quote

I can’t find anything which actually links my K.A. Werrett (below) with the man who drew the drawings. But, given the unusual surname, I’m fairly confident I have found the right person. 

 

Starting off with family history based research and then discussing the man with fellow modellers what I’ve discovered is the following:

 

Kenneth Albert Werrett was born on 2/4/1901 in Staveley, Derbyshire, the son, according to the 1901 census, of Albert Samuel Richard Werrett [born Gloucester 1873] a MR Station Master – presumably at Staveley as that is where they were living in 1901. By 1911 the family had moved to Woodchester where his father was Station Master. The 1921 census shows Kenneth and his father as visiting Kenneth’s grand-father Albert Werrett, a retired Station Master in ??? [the 1921 census does not provide the town name!]. Kenneth’s father was now Station Master at Studley and Kenneth is recorded as being an ‘invalid’.

By December 1936 Kenneth was living in Bridgwater. The 1939 War Time Register of persons shows K.A. Werrett as single and incapacitated, living on private means with his father, now a widower and a retired railway official, in Yeovil, Somerset. 

 

The story then moves to more recent times. Information from various railway modelling friends etc. notes K.A. Werrett living alone in a caravan in a park community in Chippenham, dates not known. He died, aged 80, in Northleach Hospital Gloucestershire 15th Feb 1982, leaving no known relatives. On his death his belongings were cleared out by his neighbours. His drawings were donated to the 'Steam' museum at Swindon by one of them. However, the museum have since lost them, or at least on enquiry no one knows where they are!

 

As the Werrett drawings at Derby came to the Museum many years before Kenneth’s 1982 death this suggests those at Swindon and Derby are not one and the same collection.

 

How K.A. Werrett came to be interested in wagons is unclear but if his father was indeed a Station Master Kenneth would have had easy access to them at various locations given the family’s movements and may be there was also encouragement from his father. The censuses etc. hint at Kenneth being disabled in some way, so may be ‘wagon’s and ‘drawing’ became his life because of this.

 

Drawing everything together it would seem Werrett was aged 17 to 20 when he made his notes and sketches, only drawing them up much much in later life, which could account for the ‘Details Taken in 1917’ notes and 1950s dates on the drawings.

 

Given the caution modellers have towards his drawings I am in full agreement with you. The "drawing office" quality of his work gives a false sense of confidence in its accuracy.

 

This is not to say that the drawings should be dismissed out of hand; from the Midland drawings they do provide evidence for some features that are otherwise unknown but entirely plausible, such as the trestle and bow for supporting sheets on Midland opens.

[Rowsley17D]

42 minutes ago, Penlan said:

I believe I saw recently LRM are going to/or have a new website, but I can't find any details of the 'Small Cattle Wagon'.  I shall only look to adding one to my fleet...... 
A link would be appreciated - Yes I could contact John directly, but hopefully others will be seeking kits too 😎

 

Is this what you're looking for?

 

http://www.londonroadmodels.com/rolling_stock_pages/brake_etc.php

 

Scroll down to Wagons, Vans & Trucks.

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

http://www.londonroadmodels.com/rolling_stock_pages/brake_etc.php

 

According to a post by @Jol Wilkinson, a request has been made for the old Scalefour Society-hosted site to be taken down but it seems this has yet to happen; it is unfortunate that that is the site that comes up when googling, especially, I suspect, if one has been there before. I'm not sure what would happen if one tried ordering through the old site, which displays old prices.

 

Correction: googling londonroadmodels.com takes one to the new site, so if everyone does that, the internet will learn.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Compound2632

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

I hit the "submit reply" box and nothing happened, so I hit it again and it said I had to wait 53 seconds before submitting it again, so I waited 53 seconds and hit the button again and nothing happened so I gave up. Then I looked at "New Content" again it was there 3 times.

 

It baffles the living daylights out of me sometimes.

If you're replying to a post that's not on the last page of the thread (as you would have been there) it often does that - it's submitted the post, but not refreshed the screen as your new post is on a different page to the one you're viewing.

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, there are Ken Werrett drawings I have been interested in for Welsh companies, but they do not seem quite to tie up with other information such as company drawings. One in particular of a wagon with a sheet rail has caused a good deal of head scratching.

Mind you I have just received an official Cambrian drawing with a sheet rail like no-one has ever seen, and another of a wagon which never existed.

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

Then best my colleague can do for that photo in the Rhymney drawings book, a 1200 dpi scan from a print he holds.

It is also in the HMRS collection as AAK 511 but almost certainly also a print so probably no better.

 

The original photo in fact has four wagons with the MR one third from the left:

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aak511--wagons--cr-4-plank--rr-3-plank-580--mr-3-plank--goods-train--lineside-fencing---railings.html

Jonathan

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by corneliuslundie
words in wrong order

[t-b-g]

I think the Werrett drawings are better, as the late Roy Jackson used to say, than the ones we haven't got.

 

There were often variations between batches and alterations to real wagons in service that official drawings don't exist for.  

 

So if he recorded and drew a wagon that is at variance with official records, there is no way we can ever be truly sure whether he was wrong or if he recorded a wagon that had been altered in some way.

 

100 years later and with no great catastrophe going to befall me if a detail us not 100% in line with whatever photos and official records exist, I am not going to lose any sleep over building a wagon to his drawings. It is very hard for anybody to prove conclusively that they are wrong and that no wagon ever existed that looked like what he drew. All we can ever say is that they don't match.

 

Given a choice between building a model based on limited details that may be suspect, or not building it at all, I tend to adopt the former approach.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I think the Werrett drawings are better, as the late Roy Jackson used to say, than the ones we haven't got.

 

That's no doubt true, but in the case of the Midland wagons he drew, better drawings are now accessible.

 

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

There were often variations between batches and alterations to real wagons in service that official drawings don't exist for.  

 

You should see the amount of red ink detailing alterations between lots, or half-way through a lot, or years after the wagons were built, on some of the Midland C&W DO drawings!

 

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Given a choice between building a model based on limited details that may be suspect, or not building it at all, I tend to adopt the former approach.

 

Absolutely. It's just that knowing the weaknesses of the Werrett drawings where one can compare with other drawings, one knows not to place blind faith in them. 

[Compound2632]

Fiddling and fitting with the LNW D17 brake van:

 

 

The nickel-silver underframe is of an ingenious semi-spring three-point suspension design. The axleguard unit shown rocks on the logitudinal wire, as do the other two. But their freedom of movement os constrained by a spring wire on either side, that passes through the folded-up tab that can be seen in the photo - these being the other two of the three suspension points. 

 

The snag, of which I was forewarned, is the limited space between the rocking axleguards and the inside faces of the solebars. The cast whitemetal spring units have to fit in here. I've filed then wafer thin behind the solebars, both on the front, so as to bring the springs themselves outwards, and on the back to clear the axleguards. I've also cut out unnecessary support material. But it's still all a very tight fit.

 

I've also removed nearly 1 mm down each side of the underframe base, so that it can be got in and out with the spring castings in place. Obviously it's not glued down yet, as the lengthways rod has to have room to be slid out to mount the other axleguard units.

 

I wonder what anyone else who has built this kit has done?  

[garethashenden]

I haven't built the D17, but I have built the NLR brake. Its basically a D16 with clasp brakes. It looks like I cut off the tabs from the spring castings. At least they're not there and the spring is sitting entirely on the solebar. It was a while ago that I built it, 2015 I think, but I do remember having some trouble in this department. I did replace the axleguards. I'm not sure if it was the bearings I was using or something else, but they splayed outwards quite notably. I used some that work in a similar manner to what is in the D17 kit, but I don't think I'd do it that way again. I find rocking axleguards to be quite difficult to find space for. If they are to work they need clearance, whereas the sprung ones from Bill Bedford and others can be tight up against the solebars. When I get around to building another NLR brake I will do it that way.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, garethashenden said:

I did replace the axleguards. I'm not sure if it was the bearings I was using or something else, but they splayed outwards quite notably. 

 

Funny you should say that. I'm also putting together a Brassmasters wagon underframe, which has sprung suspension with sliding inner axleguards. I first assembled this with the bearings supplied - horrendous splay. On closer inspection, the bearings were rather shallow. I replaced them with MJT waisted bearings and the splay has gone away. History repeating itself: I had the same problem with the Mousa LNW D32 covered goods wagon, one of the earliest builds in this thread, with the same solution.

[WFPettigrew]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the same solution.

Another option in the sprung W iron universe are the Masokits ones, which comes complete with a nifty little tool on the etch to measure the depth of the coning of the bearings you are using, with different thicknesses of washer also included to pad out to the right degree if required. 

 

Usual disclaimer just a happy customer etc.  Oh and despite the reputation of the masochistic nature of this range of products, actually that isn't the case for the W irons: I find these go together easily and quickly and give a good smooth springing result - certainly no more fiddly than the Bill Bedford or Brassmasters products and without the threading-of-tiny-spring-wire-through-infinitesimally-small-hole challenge of the Brassmasters ones!

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

different thicknesses of washer also included to pad out to the right degree

 

But that, in my experience, would be going in the wrong direction. The problem, as in this case,  is bearings that aren't deep enough, so in principle they need to be spaced further apart, which they can't be, because of the width between back faces of the axleguard.

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Then best my colleague can do for that photo in the Rhymney drawings book, a 1200 dpi scan from a print he holds.

 

Thanks; I think here we may be at the limit of the original plate, or at least print, ad to some extent getting closer in makes things less apparent. The key identifier for the Morton brake is the single V-hanger mounted on the rear face of the solebar.

[Jol Wilkinson]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Fiddling and fitting with the LNW D17 brake van:

 

 

The nickel-silver underframe is of an ingenious semi-spring three-point suspension design. The axleguard unit shown rocks on the logitudinal wire, as do the other two. But their freedom of movement os constrained by a spring wire on either side, that passes through the folded-up tab that can be seen in the photo - these being the other two of the three suspension points. 

 

The snag, of which I was forewarned, is the limited space between the rocking axleguards and the inside faces of the solebars. The cast whitemetal spring units have to fit in here. I've filed then wafer thin behind the solebars, both on the front, so as to bring the springs themselves outwards, and on the back to clear the axleguards. I've also cut out unnecessary support material. But it's still all a very tight fit.

 

I've also removed nearly 1 mm down each side of the underframe base, so that it can be got in and out with the spring castings in place. Obviously it's not glued down yet, as the lengthways rod has to have room to be slid out to mount the other axleguard units.

 

I wonder what anyone else who has built this kit has done?  

Stephen,

 

I drew the etched underframe for LRM, to John Redrup's specifications. I test built the etch design and made a number of adjustments before it went into production. The pattern for the moulding was produced by someone else.

 

A test build of the complete kit was carried out by an experienced modeller (not involved in the design process) who didn't report any issues. Unfortunately by then, the batch of castings had been manufactured (by a contractor who produces excellent mouldings but whose T&Cs require that you commit to buy all the production from the silicon mould until it "fails"). The obvious solution is to get the original pattern modified by person that made it and a new batch made. How practical/viable that is I can't say.

 

I'll feed back your comments to John.

 

Jol

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I'll feed back your comments to John.

 

Thanks; I knew you were the designer of the underframe (it's got your name etched into it) and you had mentioned this problem at the time I bought the kit a year ago. This is a problem area for many etched kits with rocking axleguard suspension - I have a D&S Midland ballast brake (bought well before the kit passed to LRM) which stalled because I was struggling to fit the spring castings in. Another one to return to!

 

To demonstrate my even-handedness, I will mention that I have written to Brassmasters re. the splay problem with the supplied bearings. In this case, Dart are the winners since I'm going to have to order another packet of the MJT waisted bearings!

 

At this point I have to confess that I didn't spot the bearings in the bag of bits for the D17 brake until after I had used MJT ones - square ones in this case, which give a nice positive location in the axleboxes (drilled out 2 mm) for trial fitting before (in this instance) gluing in place.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The problem, as in this case,  is bearings that aren't deep enough

Sorry yes of course..

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

Sorry yes of course..

 

But the depth gauge sounds a useful tool. I think someone did post a photo of it, now lost in the crash.