More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[jamie92208]

20 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Stephen, may I please ask, what do the terms "cess" and "six-foot" mean in this context?

 

@WFPettigrew, my copy of John Hayes' "The 4mm Coal Wagon" has arrived and I realise it may contain the answers to this question, but the book was spotted by my daughter as a new arrival and she asked whether she could give it to me as a birthday present (she always tried to include a railway related item on such occasions) so I shan't be able to start reading it for another month or so...

The cess is the outside of a stretch of double track.the six foot is the area between the two inner rails so much more dangerous place. The area between the rails is known as the four foot.  So the safest place to be is in the cess.  I beIieve that there was usually a 10 gabetween a pair slow lines and a pair of fast lines but this was not always so. 

 

Jamie

Edited June 4, 2023 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Stephen, may I please ask, what do the terms "cess" and "six-foot" mean in this context?

 

The four-foot is the space between the running rails - 4' 8½". The six-foot is the space between the adjacent two running lines, with a minimum dimension of exactly 6' 0", giving track centres of 11' 2", the rail-head being 2¾" wide. (Between pairs of running lines, or between running lines and loops or sidings, this minimum dimension was increased to 10' 0".) The cess is the area outside either of the running lines, often to the side of the shoulder of the ballast, if there is such. So, a brakesman pinning down brakes in the six-foot is in peril of being run down by a train coming on the other line, whereas if he is on the cess side, at worst he will trip over point rodding or signal wires, etc. (The 1902 Board of Trade rules required point rodding and signal wires to be boarded over at places where shunting or pinning down of brakes was a frequent activity.)

 

As Jamie said, posting succinctly while I was typing long-windedly.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Compound2632

[Chas Levin]

Thanks gents, I wouldn't have guessed that: I'd assumed both terms concerned wagon parts, hence my comment that John Hayes' book might contain the answers...

I note that 'cess' means a tax, assessment or lien: how did it come to be applied to the area beside a railway track?

[Buhar]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

I note that 'cess' means a tax, assessment or lien: how did it come to be applied to the area beside a railway track?

I think it might be related to the drainage function it also served, as in cesspit.  The etymology of cess in that context is uncertain but some options would appear to relate to the railway usage.

Alan

[Chas Levin]

5 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I think it might be related to the drainage function it also served, as in cesspit.  The etymology of cess in that context is uncertain but some options would appear to relate to the railway usage.

Alan

Ah - of course, that does make more sense, thanks alan. That's what I'd assumed before looking it up online, because I'd only ever heard the word attached to 'pit', but that doesn't seem to get a mention in the online definitions, which are all about the tax connection.

[Compound2632]

 

[Embedded link to scan of MRSC 28161]

 

Six-foot in the middle, cess to the sides.

[WFPettigrew]

And generally the surface of the cess is much finer stone or ash than the ballast, and often darker because it was often ash, although back in the days of ash ballast that distinction is perhaps lost.

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

I shan't be able to start reading it for another month or so...

 

The wait will make it all the more special....!

[billbedford]

12 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

I think from memory standard is that 10 tons of coal occupies 400 cu ft so any deviation is over the required capacity 

 

Of course not all coal is of the same weight but you have to have a measurement to work from

 

Bigger coals needed a larger volume to load the stated tonnage. I suspect the smaller wagons were only good enough for carrying slack. 

[Andy Vincent]

I came across this entry whilst reading the NRM Stratford Works drawings list (dont ask!) and wondered if anyone has seen the contents:

 

Drg. 9906 - Comparative Statement Giving Particulars of the Requirements by Various Railway Companies for Private Wagon Owners. Chart comparing a range of structural and dimensional requirements for private wagon construction by LSW, L&Y, GN, LNW, SE, GW, TV, MR & NBR. Dated: 9.9.85

 

It just piqued my interest. It looks as if it has been microfilmed but the saving on that version (£7.50 vs £27) might be at the expense of readability depending on what it contains!

Edited June 5, 2023 by Andy Vincent
Improved readability

[Penlan]

18 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Below is a picture of Groby Wharf, HQ of the standard gauge section.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zJS8ntABAB1MfDJs6

On the left is the main offices, far right is the locomotive shed and just visible between the two is the large building that housed the wagon shop, the carpentry shop being at the right hand end, the forge is out of sight on the left.

Another photo, from 'Groby and it's Railways' by D.A.Ramsey, TEE Publishing.  My copy is from 1982.
I was born in Groby, 1943.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Drg. 9906 - Comparative Statement Giving Particulars of the Requirements by Various Railway Companies for Private Wagon Owners. Chart comparing a range of structural and dimensional requirements for private wagon construction by LSW, L&Y, GN, LNW, SE, GW, TV, MR & NBR. Dated: 9.9.85

 

The first meeting of the RCH General managers' Sub-Committee to consider and report upon the question of Private Owner's Wagons was held on 23 June 1885 and the first meeting of the RCH Committee of Locomotive and Carriage and Wagon Engineers appointed by that Sub Committee to draw up a Specification and Regulations was held on 10 September 1885, so this 9 September document is very likely a paper prepared for that latter meeting. Minute 4 of that meeting reads: "Agreed – That each Company send in to the Secretary copy of its own specification and drawings, for the information of the Sub-Committee." Perhaps this was simply confirming what had already happened, or was to encourage companies that had not submitted information to do so. At the 8 October meeting, held at Derby, with the participants whittled down to Clayton (Mid), Drummond (Cal), Dean (GW), Attock (L&Y), Emmett (LNW), and Sacre (MS&L), minute 2 records: "Laid on the table – Specification and drawings now in use for the construction of Private Owners’ Waggons, as supplied for the information of the Sub-Committee by the several Companiess represented on the General Committee." [TNA RAIL 1080/386]

Edited June 5, 2023 by Compound2632
shorthand expanded

[Compound2632]

Still working my way through my 1,000 PO wagon registrations. There are a good few that are otherwise unknown, particularly the smaller merchants. for example one that fits by Birmingham area interest is Usher & Co., Northfield, who had nine 10-ton wagons registered on 25 and 31 March 1898, Reg. Nos. 24414-22, their fleet Nos. 801-809. These were side door only wagons, 14' 6" by 6' 11" inside and 3' 0" deep, tare 5-16, built by the Midland RC&W Co. 

 

No doubt a search of Kelly's Directory and other sources would fill in some background but leave one none the wiser as to the details or livery of the wagons! Does that leave one with sufficient justification to make a model following typical features and lettering layout of the period?

 

I think it's reasonable to assume that there weren't 800 older wagons in the firm's fleet! (There is an 1890 registration of 20 wagons built by S.J. Claye for A. Usher, but of London.)

[MrWolf]

18 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Another photo, from 'Groby and it's Railways' by D.A.Ramsey, TEE Publishing.  My copy is from 1982.
I was born in Groby, 1943.

 

I've dug out this one from the same source which gives an idea of the size of the wagon shop. 

[MrWolf]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Still working my way through my 1,000 PO wagon registrations. There are a good few that are otherwise unknown, particularly the smaller merchants. for example one that fits by Birmingham area interest is Usher & Co., Northfield, who had nine 10-ton wagons registered on 25 and 31 March 1898, Reg. Nos. 24414-22, their fleet Nos. 801-809. These were side door only wagons, 14' 6" by 6' 11" inside and 3' 0" deep, tare 5-16, built by the Midland RC&W Co. 

 

No doubt a search of Kelly's Directory and other sources would fill in some background but leave one none the wiser as to the details or livery of the wagons! Does that leave one with sufficient justification to make a model following typical features and lettering layout of the period?

 

I think it's reasonable to assume that there weren't 800 older wagons in the firm's fleet! (There is an 1890 registration of 20 wagons built by S.J. Claye for A. Usher, but of London.)

 

It doesn't help of course when trying to assess fleets the fact that a lot of traders numbered their wagons starting at 11 or 101 to appear like a bigger outfit than they were, but I'm sure that you're well aware of that! 

[Compound2632]

Calling all Old Grobians, @MrWolf and @Penlan: I put Groby into the MRSC catalogue search and turned up item 88-G6/26, "Sketch drawing giving wagon details and lettering layout on 4 plank 10 ton private owner wagon : Groby Granite Company No. 222." 

 

This isn't one of the wagons in the first three volumes of the MR registration book. 88-G6 appears to be a file of wagon sketches of unknown date; my suspicion is that they are of relatively late date, so this No. 222 may be a replacement of some original No. 222. I'll put it down on my list for my next visit.

[Chas Levin]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

No doubt a search of Kelly's Directory and other sources would fill in some background but leave one none the wiser as to the details or livery of the wagons! Does that leave one with sufficient justification to make a model following typical features and lettering layout of the period?

 

I would say - and I'm sure others would agree - yes, it does. For one thing, this is after all a hobby and meant to be enjoyable, so if that's something one wants to do, one should do it. But ultimately, it'll be an individual decision for everyone, because some are entirely happy with degrees of historical accuracy that displease others...

 

Mind you, another thing to bear in mind is that none of these companies was thinking about posterity at the time, they were just trying to run a business, changing company colours, liveries, designs and working practices whenever they felt the need, so who's to say that a particular re-imagining of a PO wagon livery based on incomplete historical data isn't perfectly fine for at any rate part of the lifespan of the company in question?

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I would say - and I'm sure others would agree - yes, it does.

 

A further point is that displaying an incorrect model to the public gaze is the sure way of winkling out better information...

[corneliuslundie]

I have recently unashamedly painted and lettered a wagon in a fictitious coal merchant's livery since he operated at a fictitious station I am modelling (though as accurate in terms of style etc as possible). Many of us do that as very few of us have room for a real station (I liked Market Bosworth at Crewe yesterday but even there a small amount of compression was needed. And even Faringdon has the gardens which are "typical" rather than accurate representations. After all, if Pendon can do it so can we.

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A further point is that displaying an incorrect model to the public gaze is the sure way of winkling out better information...

It doesn't always work.   I did get a lot of information for the smaller buildings at Lancaster for putting mock ups on the layout, and got criticised for an unfinished layout.   However I was stumped on one of my Private owners.   Charles, aka Tot Lord was among other things, a coal merchant at Settle.  I had brief details of his wagons from the Midland register and the Charles Roberts order book at the NRM, but had no idea of what the wagon looked like. I contacted my former chapel choirmaster who dug out a circuit magazine from the 1920's which had an advert in it by Tot Lord.   That gave me enough information to do some artwork and get it produced by Powsides.  No one has ever told me it looks wrong.  I went to school with Tot Lord's grandson.

 

Jamie

 

[MrWolf]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A further point is that displaying an incorrect model to the public gaze is the sure way of winkling out better information...

 

Definitely and I have found it one of the many benefits of posting on RMWeb. You can't possibly know everything, but someone else is bound to know something that you don't.

 

I took an obscure little motorcycle to a show, restored, but with a few bits missing.

A chap came up almost immediately and said that it should have a cylindrical toolbox under the saddle that looked similar to a German soldier's gas mask case. I said I knew that but I'd only ever seen end on pictures so couldn't get enough information to fabricate one. To which the reply was "My mate has got one on his autojumble stall for £20." I bought it and made half a dozen copies.

 

18 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have recently unashamedly painted and lettered a wagon in a fictitious coal merchant's livery since he operated at a fictitious station I am modelling (though as accurate in terms of style etc as possible). Many of us do that as very few of us have room for a real station (I liked Market Bosworth at Crewe yesterday but even there a small amount of compression was needed. And even Faringdon has the gardens which are "typical" rather than accurate representations. After all, if Pendon can do it so can we.

Jonathan

 

I get that. I'm thinking of lettering up a couple of wagons for pit props as Wm. Wain & Co for my layout, numbering them 11 & 12, They didn't have wagons because the railway, although proposed, was never built.

[Dave Hunt]

If we were all constrained only to make models that are guaranteed 100% historically accurate we probably wouldn't get much done. Even those layouts based on real world places generally have some sort of alteration to suit the space available or some components that are to some degree guesswork. My own MPD layout is simply a conglomeration of Midland buildings, trackwork and other features that are fairly accurate but are in a fictitious setting. For instance, the trackwork is as near scale Midland practice as I can make it with scale timbering, chairs, pointwork etc. but the point tie bars are not true scale. The old goods shed is based on that at Ripple, as is the overbridge, whilst the coaling stage is from Bedford, the water tower from Sheffield and the offices/stores are a conglomeration of several places. The track layout is mainly based on Hellifield and the shed is a truncated version of Hellifield but the turntable is 60ft rather than 50ft - simply to get my Compound with its 'water cart' bogie tender on comfortably. The locomotives, breakdown train and other vehicles are also as close as I can get to simulations of the real thing but would in all probability not have been seen at the same location. So what is the point of all this rambling? Just to say that whilst it is a fictitious place, all the structures and features are obviously and fairly accurately Midland and each one is a reasonable simulation of what it would have looked like in 1906 (with a few small exceptions) and, most importantly for me, are things that I like and want to build. So, my take on the above posts concerning wagon livery is that in a fictitious location there is no disgrace in having fictitious wagon liveries providing the wagons themselves are accurate (within reason) models of what would have been used. And as for trying to establish the exact livery of a particular owner's wagons, if properly carried out research fails to establish beyond doubt what it was, who can correct it?

 

Dave

[MrWolf]

Well said, it's a similar philosophy to mine.

 

There's a saying amongst the vintage motorcycles fraternity: "All the men who could tell you for definite are probably dead, but at least you have got it back on the road where it belongs."

[Penlan]

I have a number of wagons ( around 20) on Penlan that are fictitious, and I have tried to make the liveries look typical of the period (circa 1910), but nearly all of them have names of current and departed friends, or as mentioned above in another reply, a known (coal etc) merchant at a given location.  As I have circa 200 wagons with known liveries, I feel they have met the standards of replicating real wagons. 
Typically fictitious, this one, a tribute to John Degg and Bill Wood who built 'Hartwell',  the origins of Penlan.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

Ah, I only have about 150 coal wagons so I can justify building a few more! In fact I bought one of the new Brassmasters Gloucester 7 plank kits yesterday at Crewe and shall be interested to see how it goes together - but about three times the price of scratch building so I shall also continue that approach. 

I think that although his layout is obviously larger than quite a lot, David Hunt sums up the approach of many of us.

But to get back to wagons, whatever the livery I like them to be as accurate as possible. Which is why I have a long shelf full of books on wagons.#And why I follow this thread - even though I have only a few Midland wagons and do not need many more.

Keep up the good work.

Jonathan