More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Adam]

On 21/09/2023 at 20:00, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, between you, me, and the gatepost: it's not the world's greatest plastic wagon kit.

No, it’s not. Above the solebar it’s fine, corners aren’t terrible, raised plank lines on the interior, chassis is frankly poor - and it’s nearly 40 years old, the tools have paid for themselves and some people will still build and buy them: others won’t know of it or build kits anyway. It doesn’t, ultimately, matter all that much. I’m not replacing mine, anyway. 
 

Adam

Edited September 22, 2023 by Adam

[Nile]

I seem to have lost track of things somewhere, which kit are we talking about now?

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, Nile said:

I seem to have lost track of things somewhere, which kit are we talking about now?

 

Cambrian Models C58, LMS D1666 12-ton high-sided open. I'd agree with @Adam; it has its good points but also its weak points, which are principally below solebar level.

[sharris]

22 hours ago, Adam said:

…chassis is frankly poor - and it’s nearly 40 years old…

 

 

Two solebars that are nominally the same (LMS wooden, 9’ wheelbase) - one is from a Cambrian kit, the other from a Parkside kit. Guess which is which.

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, sharris said:

Two solebars that are nominally the same (LMS wooden, 9’ wheelbase) - one is from a Cambrian kit, the other from a Parkside kit. Guess which is which.

 

Both have the defect, for LMS wagons, of having a representation of a private owner wagon registration plate molded on.

[sharris]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Both have the defect, for LMS wagons, of having a representation of a private owner wagon registration plate molded on.

Actually that could be my mistake rather than Cambrian’s - they were the spare parts that came with the aforementioned D1666 (and for the Parkside, spare parts that came with an LMS cattle wagon). I’d forgotten that Cambrian did RCH PO wagons too, and assumed they must be for a shorter LMS wagon from their range.

[Andy Vincent]

6 hours ago, sharris said:

Two solebars that are nominally the same

'Nominally' being key as one has bottom door gear and the other doesn't - and the width of the V hanger appears to be different!

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

'Nominally' being key as one has bottom door gear and the other doesn't - and the width of the V hanger appears to be different!

 

Excellent. I hadn't appreciated what those two extra boltheads were until I looked closely when representing the bottom door release catch on my most recent D299!

[wagonbasher]

I was at the Stafford show with the WW1 milita4y camp model Tackeroo.  Had a great time, great show and made sure I bought 3 Slaters D299.  I have learnt from the wise that there should be a greater % of the wagons in my fleet than I currently have.  1 is just not enough!

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, wagonbasher said:

I was at the Stafford show with the WW1 milita4y camp model Tackeroo.  Had a great time, great show and made sure I bought 3 Slaters D299.  I have learnt from the wise that there should be a greater % of the wagons in my fleet than I currently have.  1 is just not enough!

 

I'm sure you are familiar with this photo:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 68481, caption: "COPY POSTCARD / PHOTOGRAPH FROM THE JOHN ALSOP COLLECTION COAL 0-6-0ST - Cannock Chase, Staffordshire. - The Tackeroo Express [title + on back of card] - anon 6 John Alsop collection A 94"

[wagonbasher]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm sure you are familiar with this photo:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 68481, caption: "COPY POSTCARD / PHOTOGRAPH FROM THE JOHN ALSOP COLLECTION COAL 0-6-0ST - Cannock Chase, Staffordshire. - The Tackeroo Express [title + on back of card] - anon 6 John Alsop collection A 94"

Very much so.  Earliest days of the camp in 1914, a train of construction workers mostly carpenters there to build the circa 1000  huts. It is a poem written as if by a carpenter telling tails about the Tackeroo Express, and that is where the name came from.    From 1914 to 1916 the local colliery at Hednesford ran the rail connection to the Rugeley and the Brocton camp.

 

This is a image of the power station at Brocton after the New Zealand rifle brigade had made it their Uk base ( you can’t go home to New Zealand).  
 

 

The wagons are a west Cannock colliery which is what Iwould expect as the access to the main line at HeDnesford was via West Cannock rails.

 

POW sides do aWest Cannock Colliry transfers but it’s for a side and end door 1923 Rich wagon.  That’s way to big .  POWsides can’t digitally decrease the print size, this is silkscreen so no chance.

 

So,the artwork is simple, I need a white decal custom printed.

 

Thoughts

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jwealleans]

John Peck at Precision Decals.  

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

The wagons are a west Cannock colliery which is what Iwould expect as the access to the main line at HeDnesford was via West Cannock rails.

 

Although West Cannock Colliery was connected to the LNWR rather than the Midland, like all these Cannock Chase collieries its wagons are of interest to me. There is an article in Keith Turton's Fifth Collection, with a couple of photos from pre-1923 (or so I infer from their general appearance) both showing No. 3 pit's headgear and fat square chimney. One shows a couple of wagons, Nos. 104 and 626, that are generally similar to the ones in your photo - the pair of wooden door-stops on the underframe are distinctive. There are also a number of Dutton Massey, Liverpool & Birkenhead, wagons in this photo, giving a hint as to the destination of at least some of the colliery's output. The other photo shows several more of the Colliery's wagons, one of which is dumb-buffered, pointing to a pre=Great War date for the photo. These wagons, Nos. 216 (dumb buffered), 123 (with raised ends), and a couple of others with numbers not visible, have the same lettering layout but with the number at the right-hand end. At some point the RCH mandated left-hand-end numbering, but I'm unsure quite when. 

 

All these wagons are 5-plank so probably 8 ton capacity; the ten wagons built by G.R. Turner and registered by the Midland in 1888 were 8 ton, with internal dimensions 14' 6" x 7' 0" x 3' 2" (i.e. 15' 0" over headstocks, 7' 6" wide over sheeting) with side doors only.

 

The two builder's photos Turton includes are both of RCH 1923 specification 12 ton wagons, No. 1172 of 1924, by Charles Roberts, and No. 65 of 1937 by Hurst Nelson. Both these are black with white lettering. In the photo with Nos. 216 and 123, one can see that the lettering is shaded but it's anyone's guess what colour the woodwork is. I'm not so sure of the photo with Nos. 104 and 626, or your photo.

 

Turton states that in 1927 the colliery had 1,200 wagons but in his Eighth Collection, he gives a list of the colliery's wagon hires in the 1870s and 80s; some are for a year, but others are for six months or weekly, starting in one of the autumn months. Turton makes the point that in the summer months, the colliery shipped coal out by canal, but in the winter, a combination of bad weather - frozen canals - and increased demand led to more going out by rail.

[Rail-Online]

Mid to late 1930s at, what I assume to be the exchange sidings.  The loco became No 18 in May 1934.

 

Tony

Edited September 25, 2023 by Rail-Online

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Mid to late 1930s at, what I assume to be the exchange sidings.  The loco became No 18 in May 1934.

 

No. 322 is black with unshaded white lettering, I think. Note how the letters sit on the bottom of each plank; if there was shading, they would be a couple of inches above the bottom of the plank, with the shading in the gap. No. 813 is an elderly wagon, with four wide planks. It looks to have self-contained buffers, so has been reconstructed from its original dumb-buffered state.

 

All these wagons, and the ones in the two photos in Turton, have through top planks with top catches. But in this late 30s photo, the pair of wooden doorstops have been replaced by a single central spring steel door stop.

 

It's striking how small these 8 ton wagons look alongside the LMS RCH standard 12-ton wagons!

 

The location is in ex-LNWR territory, by the signal - so as Tony says, probably the exchange sidings. The OS 25" map shows a difference in levels between the colliery line and the LNWR Cannock Branch, so the signal could be the S.P. just north of the milepost - M.P. - all just south of Hendesford station goods yard:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/115474284

 

Photo here:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4037&PageIndex=7&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318

purports to be c. 1948/9 but since another of these 8-ton wagons is prominent and looking in good nick, I'm inclined to think it's pre-war.

 

Another of No. 3 pit:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?

&ResourceID=3884&PageIndex=6&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318

which I think must be well to the latter end, if not beyond, of the caption's "c. 1910-1930"! 10-ton wagons, at least, if not 12 ton.

 

Period atmosphere, Rugeley:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=13955&PageIndex=7&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318

Note ballasting of the main line and interesting painting style of the Earl of ?'s wagons. Also wagon of John Burgum, Camp Hill, another of whose wagons was the subject of a Gloucester official and hand-painted by me a good while ago:

 

 

But it's the virtually unlettered 4-plank dumb-buffer wagon that appeals to me nowadays!

Edited September 25, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

More hand-lettering of wagons:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=809&PageIndex=10&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318.

 

This is a postcard version of one of the photos in Turton - not as sharp as his print, unfortunately:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=47006&PageIndex=10&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318.

 

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No. 322 is black with unshaded white lettering, I think. Note how the letters sit on the bottom of each plank; if there was shading, they would be a couple of inches above the bottom of the plank, with the shading in the gap. No. 813 is an elderly wagon, with four wide planks. It looks to have self-contained buffers, so has been reconstructed from its original dumb-buffered state.

 

All these wagons, and the ones in the two photos in Turton, have through top planks with top catches. But in this late 30s photo, the pair of wooden doorstops have been replaced by a single central spring steel door stop.

 

It's striking how small these 8 ton wagons look alongside the LMS RCH standard 12-ton wagons!

 

The location is in ex-LNWR territory, by the signal - so as Tony says, probably the exchange sidings. The OS 25" map shows a difference in levels between the colliery line and the LNWR Cannock Branch, so the signal could be the S.P. just north of the milepost - M.P. - all just south of Hendesford station goods yard:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/115474284

 

Photo here:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4037&PageIndex=7&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318

purports to be c. 1948/9 but since another of these 8-ton wagons is prominent and looking in good nick, I'm inclined to think it's pre-war.

 

Another of No. 3 pit:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?

&ResourceID=3884&PageIndex=6&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318

which I think must be well to the latter end, if not beyond, of the caption's "c. 1910-1930"! 10-ton wagons, at least, if not 12 ton.

 

Period atmosphere, Rugeley:

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=13955&PageIndex=7&SearchType=2&ThemeID=318

Note ballasting of the main line and interesting painting style of the Earl of ?'s wagons. Also wagon of John Burgum, Camp Hill, another of whose wagons was the subject of a Gloucester official and hand-painted by me a good while ago:

 

 

But it's the virtually unlettered 4-plank dumb-buffer wagon that appeals to me nowadays!

 

Impressive, you have a steadier hand than I sir!

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Impressive, you have a steadierhand than I sir!

 

Did, in my twenties!

[MrWolf]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Did, in my twenties!

 

Didn't we all! 😆

[wagonbasher]

20 hours ago, jwealleans said:

John Peck at Precision Decals.  

Thank you.

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

I came across this PO wagon photo on FB this morning.  Obviously from a book but I have no idea which or about copyright.   It shows a train on the LNWR Glasson Dock branch.  The PO Wagon is lettered for W H Shaw but the town name is unreadable.

A bit of research turned up a W H Shaw colliery owner in Haslingden, Lancashire.   The Littlemoor list records that there is a very small photo in one of the Turton volumes.   Sadly I don't seem to be able to search the L & Y PO listing.   Any observations would be welcome.  In my research it appeared that Hornby had done a 00 PO wagon labelled W H Shaw and Sons but on the images I found the place of business wasn't readable.

 

Jamie 

[wagonbasher]

5 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I came across this PO wagon photo on FB this morning.  Obviously from a book but I have no idea which or about copyright.   It shows a train on the LNWR Glasson Dock branch.  The PO Wagon is lettered for W H Shaw but the town name is unreadable.

A bit of research turned up a W H Shaw colliery owner in Haslingden, Lancashire.   The Littlemoor list records that there is a very small photo in one of the Turton volumes.   Sadly I don't seem to be able to search the L & Y PO listing.   Any observations would be welcome.  In my research it appeared that Hornby had done a 00 PO wagon labelled W H Shaw and Sons but on the images I found the place of business wasn't readable.

 

Jamie 

Am I missing something or does it not say Haslingdon on the wagon.  I couldn’t read it at first but once you identified that town / village I can see that is what it says.

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

2 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Am I missing something or does it not say Haslingdon on the wagon.  I couldn’t read it at first but once you identified that town / village I can see that is what it says.

 

Andy

I think it does.   Thanks Andy.   I've just managed to get the L & Y list into a searchable form on my PC rather than my tablet and have found several matches for Wm Shaw of HaslingdEn.   I need to go through the results butt by 1893 he had wagons number in the mid 200's built by Heywood and other builders.  

 

Jamie

[MrWolf]

I've cropped and expanded the the picture as much as I can and it's easier to see the location, certainly the LINGDE part of it.

 

 

I have some books on the Glasson branch as it's two minutes walk from our house.

I'll have a dig this evening and see if I can turn up any relevant information.

Edited September 26, 2023 by MrWolf

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I came across this PO wagon photo on FB this morning.  Obviously from a book but I have no idea which or about copyright.   It shows a train on the LNWR Glasson Dock branch.  The PO Wagon is lettered for W H Shaw but the town name is unreadable.

A bit of research turned up a W H Shaw colliery owner in Haslingden, Lancashire.   The Littlemoor list records that there is a very small photo in one of the Turton volumes.   Sadly I don't seem to be able to search the L & Y PO listing.   Any observations would be welcome.  In my research it appeared that Hornby had done a 00 PO wagon labelled W H Shaw and Sons but on the images I found the place of business wasn't readable.

 

Jamie 

 

It's HASLINGDEN

 

Dave