More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Western Star]

 

 

Just to keep yours company.....

 

 

This wagon was buily by my Son (the body), by me (the underframe) and Adrian Marks (painting, lettering and weathering).  I believe that John BIrch helped by producing the etch plates on the solebar.

 

Photograph by Adrian Marks who retains copyright, published here with his consent for my use.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Just to keep yours company...

 

Highlighting the difference between the work of master craftsmen in S7 and my 00 bodgery!

[Nick Lawson]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

presumably there is a photo

Keith Turton vol 6, P164 has a pic of Henry Ellison, Cleckheaton, no54. I'll take advice on what colour it is! The powside decal is white on a clear background. Wagon built by Pickerings.

 

There is a different picture in Alan Coppin's, Oil on the Rails, of Henry Ellison, Cleckheaton, No13, by Charles Roberts. This is a pale colour (grey?) and only has a discreet owner's plate on the solebar.

 

Incidentally the useful po  index by Joe Greaves, refers to the man as Harry Ellison rather than Henry. According to this index the pic in Coppin is also in Richard Touret's Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain.

[magmouse]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Of particular interest to someone who has been meaning to make some slate loads for at least the last 15 months, is how cleanly square the blocks of slates look. Not at all artisanal. How can one reproduce that in model form, with it still clearly being slate?

 

Laser cutting would give the required accuracy. York Modelmaking does laser cut self-adhesive slates - these could be assembled with the slates directly on top of each other instead of partly overlapping. The self-adhesive aspect is probably more trouble than help in terms of getting accurate alignment - could they be persuaded to make some with ought the adhesive? I need some in 7mm scale...

 

In terms of material, if a slate is around 1/4" thick, that's about 4 thou in 4mm scale, and 7 thou in 7mm scale. The 80gsm paper in my printer is near enough 4 thou thick. York Modelmaking don't specify a thickness, but I suspect it is more than that, looking at the photos. I am not sure how important scale thickness will be - it's possible that being too accurate will mean all sense of texture and structure will disappear, and you won't have a sense of what is being represented.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

I am not sure how important scale thickness will be - it's possible that being too accurate will mean all sense of texture and structure will disappear, and you won't have a sense of what is being represented.

 

Yes, I think that's exactly the issue here - finding the middle way between a featureless cuboid and a caricature. 

[Schooner]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...one wonders how much actually went to England by rail.

 

As little as possible - as I understand it around the turn of the century slate transported by sailing vessel* commanded a premium against that carried by steamer or rail. Deemed to have a smoother journey, and so fewer losses to damage.

 

*Mostly topsail schooners, the artic of their day, we see in the photo.

 

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

...it's possible that being too accurate...

Alright, showoff!

 

:)

[Nick Lawson]

More on Henry Ellison - the 1901 census for Cleckheaton records:

Henry Ellison, 53, b. Ireby Cumberland - tar distiller

Henry Ellison, 29, b Cleckheaton Yorks - disinfectant maker

Joseph Ellison, 23, b Cleckheaton Yorks - tar distiller

Fred Ellison, 21, b Cleckheaton Yorks - disinfectant maker

(Wife, 2 daughters and live in maid also present but not recorded as having any tar-related activities.

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

More on Henry Ellison - the 1901 census for Cleckheaton records:

 

Quite some distance from Cleckheaton to Kilnhurst and nothing there on the partnership with Mitchell - which later became Yorkshire Tar Distillers. (Which is not to doubt that it's the same Ellison - that's already established.) The partnership was evidently flourishing in the late 90s as the their wagon fleet was well into the 40s.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

Re slate by sea, I recently acquired two books:

Richards, A J: "The rails and sails of Welsh slate" (Llygad Gwalch, 2011)

Richards, A J: "The slate railways of Wales" (Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, 2002)

Richards also published a Gazetteer of the Welsh slate industry. This was more recently "updated and edited" by Des Marshall from the same publisher - I have it from the library at the moment: probably reliable but the English is atrocious and there are lots of typos

The one thing all three have in common is the same photo of a ship loading with slate at Aberdyfi.

The first two are well written and packed with information.

Jonathan

[WFPettigrew]

12 hours ago, magmouse said:

In terms of material, if a slate is around 1/4" thick, that's about 4 thou in 4mm scale, and 7 thou in 7mm scale.

 

The finest Welsh slate could be rived (split) to 1/6 inch - which is just 2 thou in 4mm scale!  Photocopier paper is twice as thick as this.  However not all Welsh slate was split down that finely, and the Cumbrian slate was 1/3 to 1/2 inch thick - the latter was coarser to look at, but it was stronger and less likely to break in transit or use. 

 

Because I am modelling the Furness in 4mm, I have the luxury of best slates from Kirkby in Furness scaling down as 5 - 7 thou rather than having to break out the Rizla paper or whatever! Windsor and Newton 110gsm cartridge paper is 6 thou so that is what I went with.   I also have the luxury in that I don't have to replicate the uniform stacks of set sized slates as per the Welsh quarries, as the Kirkby slates were almost all sold as "randoms", of varying lengths and widths with certain parameters.  That said, this does mean that were I to try using either a laser cutter (or a Silhouette or similar), creating the artwork would be far more of a faff.

 

As it was I spent some therapeutic evenings cutting out hundreds of "large bests", complete with the cut-off shoulders as per Kirkby but not Welsh practice, to replicate the originals, which were 24” to 36” long randoms.  They were then glued together (I found Pritt was easier to manage than pva type glues like the Rocket one for card) in stacks to fit a Furness Diagram 10 wagon, sprayed with Halfords grey primer then given various washes to try and replicate the "blue grey" colour of the Kirkby slate. 

 

Cruel enlargement shows the deficiencies of my weathering washes!  Wagon is one of @MarcD's products with Masokits W irons and brakes (far side).  Decals courtesy of a swap with @Compound2632 giving him more MR ones to play with in return for his unwanted FR ones!

 

Usual no connection with suppliers blah happy customer blah. 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

stacks to fit a Furness Diagram 10 wagon

 

This was all discussed some 15 months ago but please remind me: did you have photographic evidence for slates being stacked lengthways like that? My impression of the Caernarfon photo and others is that in North Wales they were stacked widthways, with the ends of the wagon taking part of the weight.

[WFPettigrew]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

did you have photographic evidence for slates being stacked lengthways like that

 

Yes. 

 

There is a twice published photo of large bests being loaded at Kirkby slate wharf in circa 1910.  I am uncertain as to copyright so best not reproduce that here.  

 

And I did share this photo on here in May 22, showing a FR D15 fixed side two plank wagon loaded with slate in the sidings at Grange-over-Sands. 

 

 

No reason to assume though that the actions of the Kirkby slate wharf stackers (employees of the quarry) would be the same as those at the Welsh quarries.  The Welsh slates were uniform size and therefore would stack together better in any case, and the Kirkby slate being thicker were more robust. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

[WFPettigrew]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

did you have photographic evidence for slates being stacked lengthways like that

 

Further to the above, with more thought applied...

 

Certainly with the larger slates, even with a 10 ton wagon, the density of slate (see upthread for discussion on this) is such that you could not cover the entire floor of the wagon with slates, as this would take the wagon over its maximum load.

 

To give an example: in the FR Diagram 10 as in the model, internal dimensions 14'6 x 7', Kirkby large bests (average length of 30") would have a gap of about 4 feet in the middle of the wagon (thankfully very roughly what I have - I did this sum after creating the slates...!) while small bests would have a gap of 2 feet in the middle. 

 

The longer FR side door two plank, the Diagram 14 which features in the photo at Kirkby slate wharf, would have had only 9' of the almost 17' internal length taken up with slate with a big gap in the middle.

 

The two other Victorian diagrams of 2 plank wagons on the Furness (a fixed side and a drop side) were roughly the same internal size as the D10 but were of 6 to 10 ton capacity, so some of these would have had larger gaps depending on their load capacity, etc. 

 

So - stacking the slate across the wagon was used in Kirkby because if you stacked from the ends, you would have to introduce packing in the middle to stop the slates on the ends of the stacks from falling over into the gap like toppling dominoes.   I think the friction and weight from a well packed series of transverse stacks would be enough to hold the slates in place without the need for wooden or other packing under normal operation.   It is impossible to see in the photos I am aware of if the FR wagons had any packing in place, but I suspect not. 

 

What the Welsh quarries did with Cambrian or LNWR wagons, though, I don't know. 

 

All the best 

 

Neil 

 

 

[magmouse]

40 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

No reason to assume though that the actions of the Kirkby slate wharf stackers (employees of the quarry) would be the same as those at the Welsh quarries.

 

Actually, I think there is a good reason to assume the practices would have been the same - the slates are less prone to breakage if stacked facing sideways. The main shocks the slates will receive in transit will be along the length of the wagon (acceleration and braking forces). The slates are better able to withstand these shocks if they are applied to the edge of the slate, rather than the face.

 

Looking closely at the Caernarfon picture posted recently confirms this, and all pictures I have seen of narrow gauge slate wagons have the majority of slates loaded this way. Sometimes there are some slates loaded at ninety degrees, to ensure the wagon is tightly packed, again to help avoid breakages. Sometimes pictures show slates sticking up, wedged in to keep the pack tight (and presumably to make it easier to release the first slate and get ones fingers in to left the following ones).

 

Nick.

[corneliuslundie]

Until late in its life all the Cambrian 2-plank wagons, the type usually seen carrying slates, were 7 or 8 tons capacity. I can't speak for the LNWR.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I can't speak for the LNWR.

 

Per the diagrams reproduced in LNWR Wagons Vol. 1, diagrams D1, D2, and D4 (as seen in the Caernarfon photo) were all rated to carry 7 tons. The D7 dropside wagons specially constructed from 1885 onwards to carry narrow-gauge slate trucks were rated to carry 10 tons but one has to take into account on the one hand, the tare weight of the trucks, and on the other, their volumetric capacity, which, for three together, was smaller than that of an ordinary D2.

[Compound2632]

For the third time this year, I've indulged in some cheque-book (or credit card) wagon modelling:

 

 

This is the EFE LSWR 10 ton covered goods wagon, SR diagram D1410, on the left, alongside one built several years ago from the Cambrian Models kit. The latter has narrower planks and  Warner oil axleboxes, which put it after my c. 1902 period, as a result of which it has been a shelf queen (and still without couplings). The EFE wagon has the wider planks and Panter grease axleboxes. Both have steel underframes, which according to Southern Wagons Vol. 1 were first used on these wagons in 1899, though the overall design of the wagons goes back to 1885. I painted the kit-built wagon in Precision LSWR purple brown, from an old tin labelled B35. Looking through the current Precision listings, I suspect this may have been an error, as the LSWR browns listed include P406, Drummond Purple Brown, and P91, LSWR / SR Freight Wagon Brown - so my purple brown is in fact a loco lining-out colour. Certainly the more chocolaty brown of the EFE model is consistent with the colour of other recent SR-liveried RTR models, and even right back to an old Triang-Hornby wagon I had aged nine:

 

 

[Embedded link to Hattons website - not my wagon of nearly 50 years ago!]

 

To return to the EFE model. Looking through Southern Wagons Vol. 1, there aren't actually any photos showing the steel underframe, narrow planking, Warner axleboxes, and lifting link brake gear combination of the Cambrian kit, though no doubt other photographs show this. The EFE model has Morton clutch brake levers, with the brake blocks on the same side as the reversing clutch (as the Cambrian kit has for the lifting link), with the consequence that the push-rods are opposite-handed to normal, i.e. left above right,

 

This poses a problem, as I want to re-number the EFE wagon, partly because 11111 is a bit corny, but chiefly because according to Southern Wagons Vol. 1, it was built in 1903 - and with plain one-sided brake gear. This has led me down a break gear rabbit-hole, with a rather technical and as yet unresponded to question in the relevant topic in the EFE sub-forum:

 

The version EFE have produced as one of the ten built for the S&DJR has the single-sided brake gear that is correct for those wagons as built.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

From my research I have found out the following re types of wagon used for slate traffic 

LSWR used a mixture of 1plk stone and 3plk dropside

LNWR used dia 1 1plks, dia 2 2plk and dia 7 2plank dropside which were adapted to take 3 narrow gauge slate wagons.

Cambrian used 2 planks both fixed and dropside.

Furness used mainly 1 and 2 planks.

Still got some work to do the GWR and Caledonian

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by MarcD

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, MarcD said:

From my research I have found out the following re types of wagon used for slate traffic 

LSWR used a mixture of 1plk stone and 3plk dropside

 

Dartmoor for slate?

[MarcD]

Delabold in Cornwall 

[jamie92208]

Not as off topic as it might appear.  A few minutes in at 8:38 a Midland 5 p, ank wagon,or at least one painted as such, appears grounded at the south end of the shed. Is this a lonely survivor. 

It' also great to see another source of traffic on a stretch of railway close to my heart. 

 

Jamie

Edited November 16, 2023 by jamie92208

[41516]

A search on the UK Preserved Railway Stock List & The Railway Heritage Register Wagon Survey Project  - D299 Ex NRM Wroughton Store, moved to Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway 2006. To Hellifield c2019

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=17595

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, 41516 said:

A search on the UK Preserved Railway Stock List & The Railway Heritage Register Wagon Survey Project  - D299 Ex NRM Wroughton Store, moved to Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway 2006. To Hellifield c2019

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=17595

 

Oil axleboxes, both side brakes with long lever. Quite possible upgrades for a wagon surviving past 1939. I wonder where the NRM got it from?

 

The 1910 date is rather questionable. I wonder where that came from.

 

What's it doing at Hellifield? (Other than rotting away in the open again.)

Edited November 16, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Oil axleboxes, both side brakes with long lever. Quite possible upgrades for a wagon surviving past 1939. I wonder where the NRM got it from?

 

The 1910 date is rather questionable. I wonder where that came from.

 

What's it doing at Hellifield? (Other than rotting away in the open again.)

It's obviously been lifted off the rails to clear the track for the log contract.  They ran a 'hospital train' of a load of PCV's to Carnforth at very slow speed a couple of months ago, From the video it appears that they need the track through the shed as well so the D299 had to go on the ground. 

 

Jamie

Edited November 16, 2023 by jamie92208

[41516]

There's a thread on railforums.co.uk from last year with post #10 saying it was part of a failed museum project by WCRC.

 

 

Following a photo on a NatPres thread, a 2021 photo - So it's been worked on recently to get finished off.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by 41516