More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Hopefully OFSTED will be treading slightly more carefully in the Reading area these days 😔

 

We believe we are as well-prepared as we can be. We were Outstanding in December 2011, which is why we've not been inspected for so long. But other schools in the area that were Outstanding in November 2011 have been inspected in the last half-term.

[mikeallerton]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

We believe we are as well-prepared as we can be. We were Outstanding in December 2011, which is why we've not been inspected for so long. But other schools in the area that were Outstanding in November 2011 have been inspected in the last half-term.

All I can say as a former Chair of Governors is make sure your safeguarding records are spotless, oh and good luck of course

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, mikeallerton said:

All I can say as a former Chair of Governors is make sure your safeguarding records are spotless, oh and good luck of course

 

Thanks, and quite so. I'm also safeguarding governor...

[Andy Vincent]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

4 hours ago, mikeallerton said:

In terms of kits, I am trying to persuade Andy Vincent to produce the 1887 Charles Roberts 5 plank wagon, but apart from the RCH drawings in the Ince Waggons book, no reliable evidence has yet come to light.

 

Next time I am at TNA, I will look up these wagons in the Midland PO registers and take note of the (internal) dimensions. I am also open to other requests. Having Simon Turner's transcript, it is an easy matter to locate the entries and take the full details.

 

I can see some extra evenings spent in CAD coming up then! By way of a sort of teaser, it will make a break from some Midland bodies coming to a brass items purveyor shortly . . . 

 

Incidentally, I now have test prints of some 2mm bodies (intended for 2mm Association chassis) after making a rash promise to a 2mm modeller of some renown. And no - you cant just reduce everything by 50% ;-)

[Andy Vincent]

On 27/02/2024 at 15:23, WFPettigrew said:

As for a kit - it again depends on exactly what size the originals were.  There are Glos 5 planks from Slaters in 7mm and 4mm though the latter is not available from Slaters currently - I think POWsides may have stock - but this has the internal diagonal washer plates not external as was almost definitely used by Chas Roberts.   In 4mm Cambrian also do the 5 plank from Hurst Nelson which was 15' long.  I am not sure what other 7mm suppliers there might be. 

 

I have done a couple of Charles Roberts now - I test printed a new one last night as it happens - and can happily do more if there are enough details to work from (ideally a photo with drawings and / or dimensions). Quite a few of the Charles Roberts drawings survive and I already have scans of a couple of them so it should be possible to get very close through some extrapolation as necessary.

[queensquare]

38 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

I can see some extra evenings spent in CAD coming up then! By way of a sort of teaser, it will make a break from some Midland bodies coming to a brass items purveyor shortly . . . 

 

Incidentally, I now have test prints of some 2mm bodies (intended for 2mm Association chassis) after making a rash promise to a 2mm modeller of some renown. And no - you cant just reduce everything by 50% ;-)

Splendid, how many chassis will I need Andy!

 

Jerry

[richbrummitt]

58 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

Incidentally, I now have test prints of some 2mm bodies (intended for 2mm Association chassis) after making a rash promise to a 2mm modeller of some renown. And no - you cant just reduce everything by 50% ;-)

I’m of no renown, that I know of, but work in 2mm and am I’m interested to know more. Is there some further info somewhere or must we wait?

[Andy Vincent]

25 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

but work in 2mm and am I’m interested to know more. Is there some further info somewhere or must we wait?

 

I am seeing @queensquare in a week or so and he is going to try a couple of test builds - or more it seems ;-)  Assuming that is successful, I will need to decide how to make them available. The current generation assume a 2mm Association wagon chassis (in the same way that my 4mm bodies assume a Brassmasters chassis) but whether the 2mm Assoc would want to be involved in selling these bodies is not a discussion that I have had.

 

By way of background, this started out about 18 months ago whilst I was at a Missenden Abbey Railway Modellers Summer Retreat. As I had a resin printer with me, and somewhat on a whim, I reduced one of the current 4mm bodies by 50% and printed it to see what happened. Whilst the sides were clearly too thin, it was surprisingly (to me anyway) pretty close in all other respects. I then commented that I would have to try and spend some more time on it. This finally happened over this winter. I have now updated the way in which I design wagons to remove any dependency on the thickness of sides and ends. This allows me to make the sides/ends disproportionately thicker and adjust any dependent components before the whole thing is then scaled by 50%. Curiously, this has also had some benefits in providing some noticeable improvements in the 4mm bodies too as several components were redrawn.

 

To date, I have updated the Charles Roberts designs to the new approach and used it in some Midland bodies that are being finished off, This approach means that I can now produce a body optimized for 2mm in less than half an hour once the 4mm version is done.  I will update the Gloucester designs at some point so that they too have 2mm versions but I am not quite sure when that will be - they also need an etched solebar overlay for the characteristic brake hanger. The 4mm bodies that are available are on the Brassmasters web site but there will be many more before expoEM so a revamp of marketing material is planned to include much more information.

 

Not exactly a definitive answer to your question but hopefully there will be an answer will be soon. 

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

I have done a couple of Charles Roberts now - I test printed a new one last night as it happens - and can happily do more if there are enough details to work from (ideally a photo with drawings and / or dimensions). Quite a few of the Charles Roberts drawings survive and I already have scans of a couple of them so it should be possible to get very close through some extrapolation as necessary.

Would it be possible to do them in 7mm please.  I will need at least two for my layout.  I would probably try anfpd get some Roberts underframes from Slaters.  

 

Jamie

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, richbrummitt said:

I’m of no renown, that I know of, but work in 2mm and am I’m interested to know more. Is there some further info somewhere or must we wait?

My being the guinea pig to have a go at these is based on the fact I’m a tutor at Missenden so know Andy through that - there is a 2mm modeller of far greater renown than me who is also a tutor at Missenden.

I've seen Andy’s 4mm prints and they are excellent so am very much looking forward to having a go at the 2mm ones - the fact they are Midland is an added bonus!

 

Jerry

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

My being the guinea pig to have a go at these is based on the fact I’m a tutor at Missenden so know Andy through that - there is a 2mm modeller of far greater renown than me who is also a tutor at Missenden.

I've seen Andy’s 4mm prints and they are excellent so am very much looking forward to having a go at the 2mm ones - the fact they are Midland is an added bonus!

 

Jerry

I’ve had a look on the Brassmasters website. The component breakdown is pretty much how I’ve done recent prints of my own. They should be really good. The fact they are Midland means that many people could use them. 

[Andy Vincent]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Would it be possible to do them in 7mm please

Somewhere down this thread I had a discussion on this and I was pointed at a couple of sources for underframe bits for 7mm. It is on my 'to do' list to find that very helpful discussion so that I can look at this in earnest now that I have a bit more time. All of my 4mm models have everything exactly scaled to the prototype so should essentially only need scaling for larger scales. Inevitably there will be something unexpected, possibly relating to supports etc when it is printed as overhangs will be bigger etc., but that should be manageable.

[jamie92208]

59 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Somewhere down this thread I had a discussion on this and I was pointed at a couple of sources for underframe bits for 7mm. It is on my 'to do' list to find that very helpful discussion so that I can look at this in earnest now that I have a bit more time. All of my 4mm models have everything exactly scaled to the prototype so should essentially only need scaling for larger scales. Inevitably there will be something unexpected, possibly relating to supports etc when it is printed as overhangs will be bigger etc., but that should be manageable.

That sounds interesting.  I've done a bit of scaling 7mm etches to 4mm and that was interesting.  If you do get the right body I would be interested in two. 

 

Jamir

[WFPettigrew]

5 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

I have done a couple of Charles Roberts now

 

Thanks Andy, I am currently on with my first of yours, your first Chas Roberts one, purchased at Scaleforum last September.  (Actually just on with the Brassmasters chassis, your bit is not surprisingly all ready to go!) 

 

Looking forward to hearing what new products you are going to come up with!  I might have a suggestion or two for you once I have tied down as best I can do the dimensions of a couple of Old Silkstone wagons spotted in Furness territory in about 1910... 

[Compound2632]

I trust that if you are doing 8-ton wagons to Drg. 550, Drg. 682, and Drg. 790, you are doing them both with and without end-strap.

Edited February 28 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Drg. 682

Hmm, Diagram 343 wasn't on my list although I did look at it very early on and left it out solely on the basis that I had in mind that I would start at D299 and end at D1667 and focusing on those where 1000 or more were built. I will add D343 - which brings it to a total of 15 diagrams/variations in the list then . . .  

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

Hmm, Diagram 343 wasn't on my list although I did look at it very early on and left it out solely on the basis that I had in mind that I would start at D299 and end at D1667 and focusing on those where 1000 or more were built. I will add D343 - which brings it to a total of 15 diagrams/variations in the list then . . .  

 

Well, there were 2,100 wagons built to Drg. 682, D343, according to the Lot List (which as you know, I have come to see as a minimum quantity, for 8-ton open wagons of the latter part of the 19th century). Peanuts compared some diagrams I know. But it's just a D299 with two extra planks, ironwork extended to suit, and sloping boards on the inside:

 

 

That's a distraction, though, from my question about endstraps, but mentioned because the drawing for the ironwork of the hopper bottom wagons, Drg. 683, is the only one I've found that shows these. This appears to be because other drawings are later versions made after this component had been discontinued. (See my article in the Autumn 2023 issue of the Midland Railway Society Journal.) 

 

Are you printing springs and axleboxes? If so, presumably you are covering the variations in these - 8A and 10A grease and also oil boxes for D299 but just 10A for D351 and D343, excepting the non-standard round-bottomed boxes apparently fitted to the first lot of D343. There were variations in the springs down the years, to.

 

Have you made a representation of the bottom door catch? That would be very useful as a stand-alone item, though perhaps a composite item with a bit of wire for the end of the catch itself would be strongest. The RCH drawing in the Ince book is identical to the Midland design (for reasons discussed in a previous post) so if done for the Midland wagons, it's good for any RCH wagon with bottom doors. I'd by a bag of a gross! 

Edited February 29 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Are you printing springs and axleboxes?

Like this you mean (admittedly not quite finished)?

I am working my way through all these bits. The one saving grace - as you point out - is that having done one axlebox then they can apply to more than one wagon, either as built or in service

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Like this you mean (admittedly not quite finished)

 

 

Yes, but it's really the endstraps I'm asking about...

 

I'd take half-a-dozen D351, half with, half without. They're the big hole in my wagon fleet.

[Andy Vincent]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'd take half-a-dozen D351, half with, half without. They're the big hole in my wagon fleet.

 

In that case, here are the planned part numbers:

 

 

They should both be ready before expoEM

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

In that case, here are the planned part numbers:

 

 

They should both be ready before expoEM

 

Three pieces of relevant information, hopefully before it is too late:

1. All D351 wagons were built after the switch from 8A to 10A axleboxes. 
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "cup headed bolts" but all D299, D351, D343 &c wagons were built with countersunk bolts, so there should be no visible boltheads on the interior of the wagon, in 4 mm scale at least.
3. D299 wagons were built with endstraps up to some point in the early 1890s, so after the switch from 8A to 10A axleboxes in 1889, so one could have wagons with 8A or 10A axleboxes with endstraps, but not 8A and no endstraps, at least, not until endstraps started to be removed when wagons had end timbers replaced - a process that had probably started by at least 1905, perhaps earlier.

This is all in print, in my article in the Winter (not Autumn) 2023 issue of the Midland Railway Society Journal. 

[billbedford]

On 27/02/2024 at 22:50, Compound2632 said:

 

You have chosen spring wire according to the mass of the wagon built as intended - presumably arrived at by experiment?

 

Yes, sort of. 

 

Twenty years ago, when I started producing sprung w-irons, there was much discussion on Efourum about finding the optimum wire size for the springs. The consensus was that 10-12 thou spring steel was roughly correct for a 30gm wagon, though heavier white-metal wagons would need thicker springs. So I bought a half-kilo coil of 11thou piano wire. Only about half of this coil has been used since then. I obtained another coil of piano wire when I started to produce the printed wagons, this time, 9-thou because the models were lighter. 

 

I've had no complaints about the wires, but railway modellers tend to a bolshie lot and will either accept what is in the box or replace parts with what is perceived as "better". 

[jwealleans]

14 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I've had no complaints about the wires,

 

As far as I recall I've always found the supplied wires absolutely fine, Bill, wagons and carriages alike.

 

51L offer different gauges of wire if a replacement/upgrade is felt necessary but my coils of those are all but untouched.

[Andy Vincent]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

hopefully before it is too late

I will likely start the assembly of these in a couple of weeks or so, and that is the point where I re-check sources (including your articles) and any information that has come to light since I drafted the outline plan, so I will add this to the mix!

 

My approach, which might provide some insight into the way in which bodies appear, is to decide on the area for the next six months or so, next draw the collection of common components that are needed for the target set of wagons, then finally assemble the wagon from the collection of parts (plus draw anything that is unique to that wagon). Some wagons do get test printed along the way, usually to test some component: getting a balance between fidelity and reliability for some of the tiny end detail on swivel/pivot type end door gear is a current pre-occupation!

 

If the only difference between two wagons is the presence of an end strap, for example, then that can be a single assembly with the extra part(s) either selectively hidden in the assembly file or, more usually, fork the assembly ('derive' in Fusion 360 parlance) after the version without the end strap and add the extra component(s) to the child instance.  That way, any corrections or improvements made to the base design (or to components) get automatically applied to both versions.

[jamie92208]

The Charles Roberts order books at the NRM have been mentioned rather a lot.  They are an absolute treasure trove of information and we all owe a debt of gratitude to the late Bill Hudson who rescued them when they were being taken to the incinerator.   Just out of interest here are photos of the pages for a wagon that I was interested in.

PRINT_02.pdf

PRINT_01.pdf

Sadly I don't have an easy way of converting them to jpeg format but I hope that they are of interest.

 

Jamie