More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

In the vein of cross-checking notes, what is the story with Diagram 302/663A?

 

Hi Andy,

 

As far as I am aware, in compiling Midland Wagons, Bob Essery made little use of the Litchurch Lane C&W Drawing Collection, in the late 70s held by Derby Museums, I believe, and now part of the Midland Railway Study Centre collection; I also think he made no great use of the MR minute books at Kew. (None of this is to diminish the value of his pioneering work in compiling Midland Wagons.) Looking at the minutes and drawings, one is forced to the conclusion given in my article - and earlier in a post upthread - that diagram D302 applied only to the twelve experimental 10 ton wagons of Lot 506, built to drawing 1490. Drawing and diagram agree in showing a wagon 15' 11" long over headstocks, 7' 9" wide over side sheeting, with 3' 0" sides and 9' 6" wheelbase. Both agree that three wagons were built with raised ends. I have to thank Graham Speechley for pointing out to me that drawing 3843 did not correspond at all to diagram D302. I was relieved to discover that Andy Brown had reached the same conclusion some years ago. Since publication of my article in the Midland Railway Society Journal, I have learned that in his copy of the Wagon Diagram Book, the twelve numbers of these wagons have been written on D302, with asterisks against the three with raised ends.

 

What I think may have contributed to Bob's misidentification is that production of wagons to D663A was to two drawings: 3843 up to 1920 and 5279 thereafter, as discussed in my article. There is similar confusion over diagram D303 which Bob misidentified as applying to D607 wagons to drawing 4944 built to Lots 936 and 937; again, reference to drawings quickly shows that they do not match the diagram. In fact, D303 refers to another experimental batch of just three wagons to drawing 2157, built as one half of Lot 595 in 1904, the other half being the three prototypes of D352, drawing 2156.

 

What remains a mystery is why D663A has the A suffix and why this diagram appears to apply indiscriminately to wagons of 10 and 12 ton capacity, with and without bottom doors.Surviving copies of the Wagon Diagram Book appear to date from c. 1914/15 and include D663A on page 57. One copy has a pencil note on this page: 'Standard wagon'. See the correspondence in the Winter 2023 issue of the Midland Railway Society Journal. 

 

6 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

What further confuses me is that drawings 1490 and 3843 are 16' overall with side strapping whilst Bob's reproduction of the diagram book entry for D302 shows it as being 15' 11" and no side strapping. That said, the photos Bob includes to illustrate D302 do have side strapping.

 

I too am confused, since the drawing 1490 I am looking at [MRSC 88-C0312] is as described above and not 16' over headstocks and does state that it applies to Lot 506.

 

What I do think this all illustrates is that it is unwise to use diagrams as one's primary source. They provide handy labels in retrospect but one has to remember that they are an anachronism as far as most Midland wagons are concerned, being introduced years after many of the wagon types themselves. It's the drawings that matter* and that we are fortunate to have; it is the drawings that are referred to in the Lot List, which is innocent of diagram numbers.

 

Also, it's far from clear how they were used in practice. There was a table of telegraphic codes for wagons, which it seems to me was what would actually be used by goods department staff. The surviving Wagon Diagram Books that I have seen, judging by their condition, were documents of record rather than tools in everyday use. (I have examined five copies, three at the Midland Railway Study Centre and two at the National Archives. The latter two are stamped or labelled as belonging to the LMS General Manager, hence their preservation in our state repository.) 

 

*I will make an exception for covered goods wagons of Lot 309 with roof doors, for which the diagrams are almost the only evidence as to appearance.

Edited March 2 by Compound2632
Capital M for Midland

[Compound2632]

23 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

Wearing my HMRS Trustee hat for a moment, I think your follow-on comments and lines of inquiry would form the basis for an admirable sequel in the HMRS Journal  . . . . 

 

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Midland wagons are for the Midland Railway Society Journal!

 

22 hours ago, Schooner said:

Never had Brother @Compound2632 down as a Protectionist...!

 

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Self-interested co-editor.

 

I have been overcome with ecumenical spirit and have submitted a revised version of that post to the HMRS Journal. We'll see whether it is thought too recondite for the general readership.

[richbrummitt]

Today I was at Abingdon exhibition (very good imho) and say some friends whom I see infrequently since moving South 20+ years ago. 
 

An interesting question arose as to which companies put canvas on the rooves of their cattle vans. My friend is making a train of cattle wagons from various companies and has found that some (NE) did not bother with the canvas for goods that didn’t mind being wet and he was wondering whether to scribe the rooves for any other companies. 

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Today I was at Abingdon exhibition (very good imho) and say some friends whom I see infrequently since moving South 20+ years ago. 
 

An interesting question arose as to which companies put canvas on the rooves of their cattle vans. My friend is making a train of cattle wagons from various companies and has found that some (NE) did not bother with the canvas for goods that didn’t mind being wet and he was wondering whether to scribe the rooves for any other companies. 

 

I'm thinking of going tomorrow afternoon.

 

A quick look through Midland drawings suggests that one can't tell from them, as the canvas isn't generally shown, only the roof boards. However, the specification for the S&DJR Road Vans built at Derby as Lot 369 definitely calls for canvas and the drawing, Drg. 1088, has a detail section of the top of the door framing and eves rail which does appear to show the canvas layer, with the half-round batten along the roof edge to fix it. A number of other covered goods wagon drawings have similar sections, showing the same. However, no cattle wagon drawings have the same large-scale detail section...

Edited March 2 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The surviving Wagon Diagram Books

At the last count, the HMRS holds 493 diagram books and part of the work we plan to undertake is to try and work out which have been scanned elsewhere, which exist elsewhere but have yet to be scanned and then initiate scanning of the balance. This is likely to be a medium term exercise at the very least . . . 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

At the last count, the HMRS holds 493 diagram books and part of the work we plan to undertake is to try and work out which have been scanned elsewhere, which exist elsewhere but have yet to be scanned and then initiate scanning of the balance. This is likely to be a medium term exercise at the very least . . . 

 

Not all Midland ones though?

 

In fact, any Midland ones?

 

How do I access the catalogue?

Edited March 2 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

How do I access the catalogue?

Looking through* those listed under 'diagram book' suggests that this term is used to cover many types of books of diagrams rather than specifically 'diagram books' as we use the term here. There are 19 entries listed for MR but the descriptions are very brief but you can submit a request to the archivist for more information. The most enigmatic is a reference to a CD.

 

* Go to the the HMRS web site, click on Collections then Archive from the sub-meu. Next pick 'Diagram Books' under the 'Archive Section' filter, then Midland Railway under the 'Railway Company' filter.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Looking through* those listed under 'diagram book' suggests that this term is used to cover many types of books of diagrams rather than specifically 'diagram books' as we use the term here. There are 19 entries listed for MR but the descriptions are very brief but you can submit a request to the archivist for more information. The most enigmatic is a reference to a CD.

 

Yes, I've had a look at that. No Wagon Diagram Book as such. The drawing of Specially Constructed Wagons is interesting, though. I've seen four of these - three at the Midland Railway Study Centre and one at Kew - all of different dates, which helps build up a chronological understanding. I used these in a series of posts on specially constructed wagons upthread - February last year, I think.

[richbrummitt]

56 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm thinking of going tomorrow afternoon.

 

A quick look through Midland drawings suggests that one can't tell from them, as the canvas isn't generally shown, only the roof boards. However, the specification for the S&DJR Road Vans built at Derby as Lot 369 definitely calls for canvas and the drawing, Drg. 1088, has a detail section of the top of the door framing and eves rail which does appear to show the canvas layer, with the half-round batten along the roof edge to fix it. A number of other covered goods wagon drawings have similar sections, showing the same. However, no cattle wagon drawings have the same large-scale detail section...

Canvas not shown and/or no note to add canvas = no canvas required or fitted? If vans are showing it and cattle wagons are not that feels conclusive. 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Canvas not shown and/or no note to add canvas = no canvas required or fitted? If vans are showing it and cattle wagons are not that feels conclusive. 

 

No, the point was, it's only shown on a large scale detail on the covered goods wagon drawings. The main 1½" to 1 ft scale drawing doesn't show the canvas layer and looks the same in the covered goods and cattle wagon drawings.

[Andy Vincent]

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

canvas layer

I have a recollection (possibly faulty!) that canvas and the bedding compound underneath also provide a degree of protection from cinders. Having cinders landing directly on bare wood sounds like a recipe for disaster!

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

bedding compound

 

= white lead.

 

From the S&DJR wagon specifications in the MRSC collection, it's evident that liberal use was made of white lead for bedding timber joints, and metal components to timber surfaces - making one fear for the health of latter-day wagon restorers. Perhaps that's why they prefer modern* all-steel wagons?

 

*That is to say, wagons between a half and three-quarters of a century old.

[jamie92208]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

= white lead.

 

From the S&DJR wagon specifications in the MRSC collection, it's evident that liberal use was made of white lead for bedding timber joints, and metal components to timber surfaces - making one fear for the health of latter-day wagon restorers. Perhaps that's why they prefer modern* all-steel wagons?

 

*That is to say, wagons between a half and three-quarters of a century old.

Yes that was very common.  It was also used to bond canvas to wood.  The horse tram that I helped secure had it everywhere. 

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

16 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes that was very common.  It was also used to bond canvas to wood.  The horse tram that I helped secure had it everywhere. 

 

Jamie

Just to expand on that the tram was built in 1898 and the teak pannelling was all backed with canvas bonded with white lead. Interestingly the framing and structure was very similar to a four wheeled railway wagon.  The corner joint's where the head stocks, solebars and corner pillars joined were lovely bits of interlocking mortice and tenon joints, held together by a big Whitworth bolt. 

 

Jamie

Edited March 3 by jamie92208

[sir douglas]

So is it about time for a midland wagons vol 3?

[MarcD]

It could be a supplement addition like the Cally wagons book. There is enough information to say that the original books need to be revised.

Marc

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, sir douglas said:

So is it about time for a midland wagons vol 3?

 

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

It could be a supplement addition like the Cally wagons book. There is enough information to say that the original books need to be revised.

 

The great advantage of publishing a series of articles, as I am doing in the Midland Railway Society Journal, is that one does not have to wait for everything to be complete - better to get something into print now than everything at some uncertain time in the future - and also there's the possibility of feedback and improvement. Indeed, the articles I have written would not have been possible without the material being first rehearsed on here, with the ensuing discussions. I hope that as I have gone along I have duly acknowledged people.

 

Whether the whole lot could ultimately be brought together in a single stand-alone publication, I don't know. However, I have had the thought that the material I wrote on special wagons a while back could form the basis of a 'supplement' on that subject - for one thing, writing them up one at a time for the Journal would go on for ever. But as those who were at the Midland Railway Society meeting at Kettering last month know, I'm rather down on special wagons and wouldn't want to encourage them being modelled for general layout use!

[corneliuslundie]

I am sure the HMRS would be willing to publish a Volume 3 if the Midland Railway Society did not wish to - I don't know whether it publishes books.

But I agree that the feedback, discussion and comment on here has been very useful in teasing things out.

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

I'll second what Jonathan has said above.  Though I've no plans to write a book I am trying to get an article together about Beadmans wagon works and it's history which could either go to the MRS Journal or would also fit in the HMRS Journal.    On that subject can I just post a gem of a photo that has come my way today.

 

For the past few months I've been in touch with a guy called Peter Knife who s]lives in South Australia but who is building a model of Grassington station.  Between us we have been sorting out wagon liveries.   He was stumped by the two local coal merchants whose wagons were registered with the Midland Railway, namely  Anthony Dean who bought two wagons in 1902 built by G R Turner.  and J Wignall who also bought two wagons from Harrison and Camm the same year.   These were the entries in my database.  Presumably they were bought for new traffic when the Grassington Branch opened that year.

 

I suggested to Pater that he try contacting someone who might have copies of  old Parish magazines or Methodist Circuit magazines.  I had got livery details for C J Lord of Settle from an advert in a Circuit magazine from Settle.

 

Anyway the idea paid off and Peter got this photo sent to him.

 

What a marvellously evocative photo.   Peter had by chance got in touch with the son of the last stationmaster at Grassington.  Apparently Dean had leased his wagons through the North Central finance co but later bought them outright.  One of the leasing plates was found when the site was being cleared.   Peter thinks that the livery would be as follows

 

Anthony        Dean

   Coal            Merchant

No 2               Grassington.

 

It's marvellous how such little gems turn up.

 

Jamie

 

Edited March 3 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am sure the HMRS would be willing to publish a Volume 3 if the Midland Railway Society did not wish to - I don't know whether it publishes books.

 

The MRS does indeed publish books!

[Compound2632]

I had a pleasant outing this afternoon to the Abingdon show - a huge two-day affair this year, taking up much of the college floorspace over three buildings, with over forty layouts of all shapes and sizes. It was well-attended too - when I arrived shortly before 2pm I had to park in the remotest corner of the overflow carpark, and the halls were teeming with families as well as the usual old codgers. Who said this hobby of ours was at death's door?

 

My only criticism of the show would be that, as far as I could discover, there was no-where to buy a plastic wagon kit!

 

I had been attracted by learning that the Leamington & Warwick Club's Clarendon was to be there - a layout always worth seeing - but I ended up spending most time at Pencader chatting to a couple of members of the Cardiff Group who I have only previously corresponded with as a customer: Richard Evans, of CamKits, and Thomas Petith, whose wagon sheets I have found to be the most satisfactory around. 

[Compound2632]

I made an off-hand comment about the diagrams being pretty much the only evidence for the two varieties of roof door on 14' 11" covered goods wagons - diagrams D358 and D359. That has prompted me to look a bit more closely at the diagrams and drawings, as a result of which I think I can unpick this a bit more. 

 

Essery, on p.121 of Midland Wagons, ascribes both of these to Lot 309, which he says contained wagons to five diagrams:

• D356, 6" higher than previous lots (D353);
• D357, 13" higher than previous lots;
• D358, 12" higher, plus roof hatch;
• D359, 13" higher, plus sliding roof;
• D376, 12" higher, with vents and AVB piped, classed as fruit vans.

Now this mix of 12" and 13" extra height seems bizarre and confusing until one looks at the diagrams:

• D353, D375, D356, D358, and D376 all show height of buffer centre-line above rail level as 3' 4" and height of floor as 4' 0";
• D357 and D359 show height of buffer centre-line as 3' 5" and height of floor as 4' 1".

Now obviously any dimension measured from rail level is nominal, as the actual ride height of a particular vehicle will depend on the state of the bearing springs, wear of the tyres, and load. If one takes a different parameter not measured to rail, things are less muddled. Height of the doorway is the simplest dimension to take and probably one that was an original design parameter. Now we have:

• D353, D375 - 5' 0" doorway;
• D356 - 5' 6" doorway;
• D357, D358, D359, D376 - 6' 0" doorway.

Vehicles of Lot 309 were all built to Drg. 401, which shows 3' 4" height of buffers and 4' 0" height of floor, above rail. Now, the great majority of wagons covered by diagram D357 were built a decade or more later, 2,967 to Lots 562 and 625. These were to a new drawing, Drg. 1830, which differed from Drg. 401 in some fundamental respects. Wagons built to Drg. 401 had the old-fashioned arrangement of buffing springs bearing on the middle bearers, with long buffer rods, drawbar anchored to the middle of the spring, and a stout cross-timber on the centreline. Wagons built to Drg. 1830 had continuous drawgear with buffing springs behind the headstocks and a drawbar cradle amidships, as introduced in 1882 with Drg. 550 for the standard 8-ton wagons; this change is hardly surprising since these wagons were built making use of material originally intended for 8-ton opens. Now Drg. 1830 shows, in common with other 20th century drawings, 3' 5" buffer height, etc. 

 

Clearly, when the diagrams were prepared, the dimensions assigned to D357 were those of the most recently-built vehicles, and indeed the vastly most numerous.

 

Therefore, one deduces that vehicles to D359, with sliding roof and 3' 5" buffer height, are to be associated with the 20th century-built D357 wagons, not with those of Lot 309, whilst those to D358, with hatch and 3' 4" buffer height, probably were Lot 309 vehicles.

 

Scouring the Lot List, one finds Lot 596, dated 4 November 1904, for four 'Covered Goods for Motors', to Drgs. 1830 and 2191. Drg. 1830 does have a note written on it: 'For Sliding Roof Lot 596 see Dr. No. 2191'. Here's Drg. 2191:

 

 

[Compressed scan of MRSC 88-D0540, Drg. 2191.]

 

This looks very like the sliding roof shown on diagram D359. 

 

Essery recorded this Lot among the motor car vans and seems to have simply assumed that they had end doors; there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support this. But what 'motors' required a roof door is unclear. It seems to be the case that the eves or cant rail is intact - these are not like the LNWR, L&YR, or NER covered goods wagons that with doors open and hatch cover slid or rolled back, presented a continuous tall access way. One supposes the 'motors' were craned in - an operation that would be much simpler with an ordinary open wagon.

 

This leaves the D358 vehicles with roof hatch as a mysterious component of Lot 309. There is nothing in the Drawing Register that can be interpreted as referring to this fitting.

Edited March 3 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Now this mix of 12" and 13" extra height seems bizarre and confusing until one looks at the diagrams:

• D353, D375, D356, D358, and D376 all show height of buffer centre-line above rail level as 3' 4" and height of floor as 4' 0";
• D357 and D359 show height of buffer centre-line as 3' 5" and height of floor as 4' 1".

 

The build date for these vans is 1892, so the extra 1" on the height could be caused by using 10A axleboxes rather than 8As.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, billbedford said:

The build date for these vans is 1892, so the extra 1" on the height could be caused by using 10A axleboxes rather than 8As.

 

Lot 309 was entered in the Lot List on 1 December 1892 and careful study of the Returns of Working Stock in the Reports and Accounts reveals that they were built during 1893. (Or at least, the 200 built as additions to stock, as they received financial approval on 6 January 1893; the first of the 20 built as renewals might have been turned out in December 1892. There were no covered goods wagons built as additions to stock in the course of 1892.) All would have been built with 10A axleboxes, as had the previous three lots of covered goods wagons to Drg. 401, so if the choice of axlebox had an effect, it would be to make all vehicles of these lots ride 1" higher. 

 

If one looks at Drg. 790 [MRSC 88-D0267] for the 8-ton standard wagon with end-door, one sees 10A axleboxes and 3' 4" buffer height, whereas the diagram, D351, shows 3' 5" buffer height. I think the latter dimension would be that of the last-built wagons. The type of bearing spring changed, around the turn of the century, and I suspect that was the cause in the change of ride height.

[billbedford]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The type of bearing spring changed, around the turn of the century, and I suspect that was the cause in the change of ride height.

 

I think that is much more likely, though it's interesting that it occurred at more or less the same time as the change in axle boxes.