A scheduled stop in the middle of nowhere..

[Nearholmer]

Until now, I'd only ever heard of Axminster and Wilton in connection with carpets!

 

K

[Swindon 123]

312's on the Royston services out of Kings Cross would quite often stop, very unofficially) opposite Finsbury Park depot to drop off train crew going there. More interesting was the practice of flagging down inbound Royston services to get a lift back into The Cross. What passengers must have though to see two blokes running towards the main line waving their arms and the train then stopping to let them get on, I cannot imagine.

 

Paul J.

[Rivercider]

In a (probaly futile) attempt to bring this thread back on topic, didn't the down Cornish Riviera stop at Laira to change locos,

And to drift it back to the Salisbury - Exeter (off topic) route, the ACE stopped at Wilton to change locos,

 to avoid a 'station' stop,

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

Usually, I would agree. But in this case, there is widespread recognition that doubling to Gillingham and then to Yeovil is certainly going to happen fairly soon. So it makes sense to acquire the small amount of land needed when it is available.

 

An alternative to doubling through the stations would be longer "dynamic" loops. But they require more sophisticated signalling and that seems to be the resource that NR are most lacking at the moment.

 

Signalling a  dynamic loop isn't really any more sophisticated than signalling an ordinary crossing loop - might require an extra intermediate signal but that's about it.  The key features of planning a dynamic loop (and yes - i have done it) is firstly to get it in the right place, secondly to make it the right length in relation to train speeds and running times, and very importantly to have 'fast'  speeds through the diverging routes at both ends (60 mph is probably the minimum and also the economic ideal).  But what lots of folk don't realise is that dynamic loops do need to be pretty long otherwise they won't work and they have to be even longer if you intend to build in any allowance for perturbation in train running.  In many respects Templecombe - Yeovil is a fairly good example of a dynamic loop albeit probably longer than the ideal length.

If I was informed correctly, the singling of the line west of Yeovil, was intended as an interim measure leading to eventual closure. It was only repeated flooding of the GW line at Stafford's Bridge that made Swindon decide to keep it going as a diversionary route.

 

I was employed outside the area (and the industry) at the time of singling but wasn't the other signal box at Yeovil Jn intended to be the one retained? Apart from the over-singling in respect of Yeovil-Sherborne, the scheme had to be rethought when it started slipping down the side of the bank towards the station approach road. The planned retention of an elderly wooden box also suggests that the line onward to Exeter wasn't expected to survive for too long.  

 

Mind you, had the powers-that-be just left the double track alone and converted the signalling to TCB controlled from a single panel (the Southern had Sherborne box in mind for that even before the line was transferred to WR control) they could have saved 45 years worth of Signallers wages and costs at Yeovil Jn, Honiton, Templecombe and Gillingham. 

 

All in all, short-sighted planning, non-implementation of middle-to-long-term intentions and a fortuitous sequence of events, without all of which, I should never have enjoyed 20 years in the best job I ever had. I am, therefore, loath to criticize.

 

Definitely no thoughts about it prior to WR HQ moving to Swindon - and i do know that from first hand evidence as I worked on all the WR 'ideas' (most of them were mine anyway) for the track mileage reductions to meet the Serpell Report targets.  And if you thought you'd seen some singling then you'd seen nothing compared with the list I developed.

 

And it was certainly never discussed in operations circles at Swindon after WR HQ moved there.

 

The big problem with converting to TCB was always going to be the cost of track circuiting and remote control equipment - that killed stone dead a number of rationalisation schemes on the WR because the money simply wasn't available to do it and in any case the Salisbury - Exeter line would have been a very long way down the list with lots of far busier areas in need of major signalling modernisation through from the 1960s into the early '80s.  And if you wanted to see singling done at bargain basement level the place to look was not Salisbury - Exeter but Wolvercote Jcn - Worcester.

i understand that the new owners of the ex-Parmiters site south of Tisbury Station ( now earmarked for housing) have offered land back to the railway to enable the down platform to be reinstated. Negotiations are being held. Whether the existing loop will be extended, a dynamic loop created or indeed doubling between Wilton South & Tisbury will follow is unknown. The latter is quite possible I understand (unlike certain other sections of line).

 

The question of singling the line or retaining double in the 1960's with much longer sections is frequently discussed. I guess the decision was made higher up the line of command (as there were other routes similarly treated). I do wonder if the retention of double track would have been as cheap given the saving in wages, saving in signalbox/point maintenance. Too late now! At the time there were tales of good quality CWR being taken away and replaced by jointed track - all leading to a suspicion that the line was considered as having a limited life.

 

Other loops are being mooted as part of the resilience plans for the railway in South West. One around Whimple/Cranbrook is sorely needed in the event of delays!

 

The Salisbury - Exeter scheme was long before my time in dealing with such things but having put together the necessary for a singling scheme in the 1980s it is interesting to look at how they were costed.  Project life seems to have usually been 25 years and on a discounted cash flow basis a scheme would be required to show a net benefit over that period.  The cost involved pluses and minuses - the biggest savings were usually avoided relaying and reduced PW maintenance costs (because the track mileage was reduced) which was calculated right down to any savings in the size of gangs.  The biggest costs were usually the actual cost of doing the work, new pointwork (which added a maintenance cost in many cases although not always), resignalling and so on plus any changes in operations staffing costs.  In addition on the savings side there would be any credits for serviceable recovered material and the newer it was the bigger the credits.

 

Generally in the time I knew the route the PW Engineer at Yeovil Jcn - who I knew well - kept the route in very good condition and he got exactly the same per mile for maintenance funding as any other equivalent route on the WR in terms of mileage, traffic classification and line speed etc.  The same went for S&T equipment and the only reason the line received less attention than other parts of the Area Signal Engineer's patch (Tokenless Block matters aside) was because the stuff on the ground was far newer than that on the ex GW side and most of the lever frames at the eastern end were relatively new (Chard Jcn was the exception in that respect on my patch).

[Zomboid]

312's on the Royston services out of Kings Cross would quite often stop, very unofficially) opposite Finsbury Park depot to drop off train crew going there. More interesting was the practice of flagging down inbound Royston services to get a lift back into The Cross. What passengers must have though to see two blokes running towards the main line waving their arms and the train then stopping to let them get on, I cannot imagine.

 

Paul J.

There are a few proper staff halts around. One at Wimbledon, and before it was the overground, I was on an ELL train that stopped just outside New Cross (Gate? Don't remember which it was) for a driver to get on.

[PaulRhB]

Usually, I would agree. But in this case, there is widespread recognition that doubling to Gillingham and then to Yeovil is certainly going to happen fairly soon. So it makes sense to acquire the small amount of land needed when it is available.

 

An alternative to doubling through the stations would be longer "dynamic" loops. But they require more sophisticated signalling and that seems to be the resource that NR are most lacking at the moment.

They are looking at Tisbury station but nothing about full doubling I've heard. Doubling would be a huge job requiring digging out the whole formation as much is now higher in the centre of the old one. As Salisbury has dropped down the list for resignalling I can't see it getting impetus from there to bring the schemes together. As to resignalling Tisbury it would only require two new signals to give full flexibility using the existing style of interlocking so it doesn't need to be more sophisticated unless you include Tisbury West AHB in the loop. Tisbury loop works fine now even with axle counter TCB one side and Tokenless on the other. The only advantage to changing to all TCB reliability wise is Tokenless requires a pilotman after engineering works to reset the block while axle counters can be put into Engineering mode before the work and reset remotely once work finishes. Tokenless doesn't fail any more than Axle Counters. Wilton to Tisbury was supposed to be converted to axle counters as part of the WoE resignalling but dropped for cost saving as it worked fine.

As Mike said dynamic loops need careful siting and high speed entrance and exit points which is where Axminster loses a bit of performance due to speed reductions.

[cunningduck]

Rannoch Moor?

[Fat Controller]

Rannoch Moor?

Whilst Rannoch Moor meets the criteria for being in the 'middle of nowhere', it is a recognised station, with a platform and an entry in the timetable. It even rates an entry on the National Rail website:-http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/RAN/details.html .

The original theme here was of booked stops away from stations, and not shown on the public timetable.

[Zomboid]

When trains ran to Folkestone Harbour, they would have had to stop at Folkestone East to reverse, where no station was provided.

[Joseph_Pestell]

What is the usual UK procedure when the hour changes in Spring and Autumn?

 

In France, at the Autumn change trains would just stop for an hour in the middle of their journey, often in the middle of nowhere.

 

More fun at the Spring change with some lively driving to try and get back on schedule.

[Fat Controller]

What is the usual UK procedure when the hour changes in Spring and Autumn?

 

In France, at the Autumn change trains would just stop for an hour in the middle of their journey, often in the middle of nowhere.

 

More fun at the Spring change with some lively driving to try and get back on schedule.

I remember the first time I worked during the Autumn hour change; it took me a few minutes to realise why my time-space graph looked a bit odd. The trains around 03:00 didn't seem to be on platform for any time at all on the graph, though of course they had their normal dwell time. 

I believe there was one year when the Swiss changed the hour at a different time to all their neighbours, which caused great confusion.

[PaulRhB]

What is the usual UK procedure when the hour changes in Spring and Autumn?

 

In France, at the Autumn change trains would just stop for an hour in the middle of their journey, often in the middle of nowhere.

 

More fun at the Spring change with some lively driving to try and get back on schedule.

It's assumed people on the train will use the timings as if the clocks don't change. The 'new' time only applies for trains starting after 01:00 as the clocks tend to go back at 02, published in the WON, or midnight when they go forward. So technically a few trains arrive early when clocks go back and late when they jump forward but the jump forward is usually covered with an altered notice.

[Swindon 123]

Clock changes always used to cause fun with train running. When I was working out of Kings Cross the overnight services would stick to the time they started at, and special diagrams and timetable suppliments would be issued with the finishing time being stated as GMT or BST, whichever was the case. You had to remember to put GMT or BST on your drivers ticket when booking off to ensure you had the right time accredited to you. 

 

Paul J.

[Colin_McLeod]

I have a small station with no scenery at all near it. I think I'll rename it "Nowhere Central"

[caradoc]

And presumably in the era of Delay Attribution some bizarre £ factors influence that decision.

 

I can't speak for other parts of the UK but in Scotland, which has a lot of single lines, decisions on regulating late running trains are never made on the basis of financial penalties (not that Signallers and Controllers know what these are in the first place). The main factor considered is minimising overall delay; This can lead to some strange-looking decisions, eg delaying a 20 mins late Down Far North service by another 40 mins to keep an Up service on time. However if the Down service has no other Up trains to pass, whereas the Up service crosses 3 or 4 other trains, this pretty much eliminates the delay when the Down service terminates, rather than making every train on the route 20 mins late, probably for the rest of the day. Other things taken into account are the next workings of Driver, Guard and set(s), and connections into other services. Regulating traffic on routes such as the Far North, Perth/Inverness and Aberdeen/Inverness lines is a dark art requiring the full knowledge, skills and co-operation of Signallers and Controllers.

[DavidB]

When trains ran to Folkestone Harbour, they would have had to stop at Folkestone East to reverse, where no station was provided.

I remember once travelling in the early 1980s on a Summer Saturday only service from Reading to Folkestone Harbour, formed of two South Eastern Division VEPs. Aside from the reversal at Folkestone East, we also had an earlier scheduled stop in the middle of nowhere (near Stewarts Lane) for a crew change - I can't remember the rest of the stopping pattern - in fact I'm not even sure if it called anywhere else between Reading and Folkestone Harbour. It was a very empty train on the day I travelled....

 

David

[Swindon 123]

Back in the old days on Sundays the first services from Crewe to Cardiff and vice versa where booked to cross at Hereford where the Crewe and Cardiff traincrew swapped over. Not exiting you may think. But if one or the other was running late then to save delays there was a 14.00 spare crew at Hereford who would take whatever late running train, either north or south, and effect a cab change over when they came across the other train, normally at a signal box. It was not unknown to be in the middle of nowhere, with both traincrew keeping a sharp lookout for the other train.

 

Paul J.

[Andy Kirkham]

I have the loan of a WR working timetable for 1970/71 and on the MInehead branch (its last year of operation) there is a note against the 0635 and 1315 departures from Taunton:

 

Calls at Leighwood Crossing (173m 47ch.) between Crowcombe and Stogumber to set down Crossing Keeper/churns of water

[luckymucklebackit]

On the West Highland line there were references in the old working timetables to stops at platelayers cottages at various remote locations on the line, this was sometimes the only way for the platelayers wife to get to Fort William for groceries.

 

Jim

[D854_Tiger]

Nowadays freight trains do a lot more stopping in the middle of nowhere in order to change crews.

 

See it a lot round my way, when the busier town centre locations are such a pain to get to, thanks to traffic congestion, it makes sense to do the swap elsewhere.

 

I know the loop at Elford (north of Tamworth) is used for such purposes and have witnessed Dorridge being used similarly, the train crews having to climb down the platform to reach the back road.

 

Hardly the middle of nowhere but one evening at Birmingham International, I did see a class 70 on a huge container train come to a stand on the main line platform, right opposite the bottom of the stairs (lazy gits) to do a change over.

 

The platform was absolutely crammed with visitors to the Horse of the Year show, only one of whom (me) seemed most appreciative when the fresh driver gave it the beans, best part of the evening thus far (not really the horsey kind).