For those who like old Motorcycles.

[rockershovel]

47 minutes ago, PatB said:

I would contend that there is something of a gulf between "could be better" and "no flaming use whatsoever". 

 

Well, true; but I wouldn’t regard the statement “the brakes on older Harleys aren’t worth a light” as particularly novel or revelatory. The BSA 7” SLS drum was well known to be all-but-useless, hence the introduction of the far superior, 8” cast-drum, alloy brake plate, SLS unit. This unit is listed as early as 1949, and I’d always thought of it as the “A10 brake” or “sidecar brake” (it was fitted to the M21 600cc sidevalve single) but if your 1949 Flash has a 7” unit, it wouldn’t particularly surprise me. 

[MrWolf]

The 8" brake appears to be something that the A7 inherited as a sort of hand me down once the A10 models came on stream, probably as an upgrade but it also saved having two different offside fork bottoms in the A model parts bin. 

It's a far superior brake, as good as the much lauded Goldstar item. The rear brake on the early twins is a really good stopper and has to be used care, it's actually safer making an emergency stop two up though!

I know that the front brake on my mate's 48 Harley is pretty much decorative and he rarely uses it. The brake plate looks like it was pinched off an old camping trailer. No wonder they hid it behind a fancy chrome cover in later years.

BSA chrome plated the front and rear brake plates on the '48-49 Star Twin in a similar act of distraction I think.

Edited October 25, 2020 by MrWolf

[rockershovel]

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

The 8" brake appears to be something that the A7 inherited as a sort of hand me down once the A10 models came on stream, probably as an upgrade but it also saved having two different offside fork bottoms in the A model parts bin. 

It's a far superior brake, as good as the much lauded Goldstar item. The rear brake on the early twins is a really good stopper and has to be used care, it's actually safer making an emergency stop two up though!

I know that the front brake on my mate's 48 Harley is pretty much decorative and he rarely uses it. The brake plate looks like it was pinched off an old camping trailer. No wonder they hid it behind a fancy chrome cover in later years.

BSA chrome plated the front and rear brake plates on the '48-49 Star Twin in a similar act of distraction I think.

 

I've now located my copy of Bert Hopwood's book. He doesn't say much about the subject, but he repeats the story (for which he is probably the source) that the Star Twin was designed, prototyped and launched in a matter of months. He is ambiguous about whether the original Star was 500cc, 650cc or both. The only illustration which might help is the original catalogue image for the 650cc Golden Flash, described as "launched for the 1951 season" which clearly has the 8" brake. 

 

My guess is that the original bike had the existing 7" SLS with steel brake plate, subsequently upgraded to the 8" when available. Pictures of M21s show them with either style of brake, regardless of year, so it might have been an "extra cost to order" item on them?

 

[rockershovel]

The Harley "Glide" type front drum has a curious inside-out front brake plate, with the shoes and cam sharing space inside the cast brake plate with the cable and actuating arm - hence the quite hopeless geometry of the arm and cable! 

 

 

This one also has the "over-the-top" brake cable, with an s-shaped cable tube over the mudguard to accommodate the switch to right-side brake lever which accompanied the change to foot shift. You might guess what this does for braking, although the change isn't that great (given that it is largely useless anyway). Some later models have a right-side drum, for whatever reason..

 

The older, springer type brake is entirely conventional. 

 

[MrWolf]

The old "long stroke" A7 built between 1947-50 is a bit of a unique animal. The engine owes much to its prewar ancestry and only a handful of parts are interchangeable with the plunger framed A7/A10 built between 1950-57. It underwent a good number of changes in a three year production span whilst BSA developed a modern short stroke motor. 

When the Star Twin model was introduced for the 1949 model year, all were fitted with the plunger frame (it also became an option for the standard bike) it was also fitted with a new one piece 7" front hub, everything previously had a QD crinkle hub and straight spokes like the rear wheel. 

In 1950, the long stroke A7 and A7ST end production. A new A7 appears, still with the 7" brake. The A10 is also launched and the 8" brake is part of that design. 1951, a new A7ST is launched, with the redesigned engine, oddly with a single carburettor, this model also has the 8" front brake as standard. Standard A7 models continue with 7" front brake until 1954 when the 500cc plunger models are discontinued and replaced by the swingarm frame A7 and A7SS.  The plunger A10 carried on pretty much unaltered from the 1954 model until 1957, by why time BSA could already see the writing on the wall for sidecar hauling bikes and just offered sidecar gearing for the swingarm frame A10.

[MrWolf]

This one had been someone's living room "conversation piece" quite a few parts of the front brake were missing and as Harley kept changing and tweaking things, it took a bit of effort to get this one back on the road. (The brake is good enough to pass an MOT, that's about all)

[rockershovel]

56 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

The old "long stroke" A7 built between 1947-50 is a bit of a unique animal. The engine owes much to its prewar ancestry and only a handful of parts are interchangeable with the plunger framed A7/A10 built between 1950-57. It underwent a good number of changes in a three year production span whilst BSA developed a modern short stroke motor. 

When the Star Twin model was introduced for the 1949 model year, all were fitted with the plunger frame (it also became an option for the standard bike) it was also fitted with a new one piece 7" front hub, everything previously had a QD crinkle hub and straight spokes like the rear wheel. 

In 1950, the long stroke A7 and A7ST end production. A new A7 appears, still with the 7" brake. The A10 is also launched and the 8" brake is part of that design. 1951, a new A7ST is launched, with the redesigned engine, oddly with a single carburettor, this model also has the 8" front brake as standard. Standard A7 models continue with 7" front brake until 1954 when the 500cc plunger models are discontinued and replaced by the swingarm frame A7 and A7SS.  The plunger A10 carried on pretty much unaltered from the 1954 model until 1957, by why time BSA could already see the writing on the wall for sidecar hauling bikes and just offered sidecar gearing for the swingarm frame A10.

 

I once owned a rigid A10 of sorts,  a hybrid incorporating a 650cc engine in a rigid B series frame. From recollection, the transmission was a B type with a steel B-series chaincase and through-bolt footrests, but it’s a long time ago now. I only ever owned one plunger frame B31 and thought it was perfectly awful handling! 

[PatB]

19 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I once owned a rigid A10 of sorts,  a hybrid incorporating a 650cc engine in a rigid B series frame. From recollection, the transmission was a B type with a steel B-series chaincase and through-bolt footrests, but it’s a long time ago now. I only ever owned one plunger frame B31 and thought it was perfectly awful handling! 

A few years back, I was invited to take a mate's homebrew M33 (M21, into which he'd transplanted a B33 engine in the 80s, rather than a factory example) around a small, local racetrack, and I thought it was surprisingly OK, albeit with fairly limited cornering clearance. Mind you, given its litany of other irritations, it wouldn't surprise me if the plungers were seized. Apparently our local classic racers tend to fit spacer tubes rather than springs to anything with plungers to turn them into proper rigids.

 

Oh yes, and that one had Suzuki GT Something or Other forks, with the big, double sided TLS drum brake that was the best bit of early GTs. Which would probably have been quite effective, had it not still had its fossilised original linings in it. Wooden or wot? 

[MrWolf]

That A10 engine would have been taken from a swingarm model, it sounds pretty cool to be honest! I owned a late 1950 A10 with a rigid frame, they were available as an option until 1952 or so. 

The plunger frame handles quite well with the twin front downtube A model frame, the B31 is a bit light. The real problem with the plunger frame is dirt getting into the centre bushes and making everything stick, or poor assembly of the covers so that they rub together. If you can keep everything clean and well greased, it's pretty good. Of course, the bikes went through several decades of just being old bangers, my last B31 was a bit of a shed and had some amusing bodges.

The other problem with old British bikes is that they don't get restored to use in anger very often. 

Lots I come across are shiny trailer queens and the mechanical bits are worn out. Doesn't matter if you only do a couple of laps of the arena at a traction engine rally.

Others have been bought as "barn finds" (I really don't like that description anymore!) cobbled together to get them back on the road and work just enough to pass the prospective buyers test drive.

I'm sure you have seen the same.

[MrWolf]

9 minutes ago, PatB said:

A few years back, I was invited to take a mate's homebrew M33 (M21, into which he'd transplanted a B33 engine in the 80s, rather than a factory example) around a small, local racetrack, and I thought it was surprisingly OK, albeit with fairly limited cornering clearance. Mind you, given its litany of other irritations, it wouldn't surprise me if the plungers were seized. Apparently our local classic racers tend to fit spacer tubes rather than springs to anything with plungers to turn them into proper rigids.

 

Oh yes, and that one had Suzuki GT Something or Other forks, with the big, double sided TLS drum brake that was the best bit of early GTs. Which would probably have been quite effective, had it not still had its fossilised original linings in it. Wooden or wot? 

 

The M33 was meant to be a fast sidecar hauler, where the lousy ground clearance of the M20 frame didn't really matter. Although it did very well for WW2 dispatch riders.

We have a 1949 B33 in a rigid frame, that's quite chuckable on the lanes round here. 

I did once see an Australian built rigid A7 that was made to look more like the 1939 prototype. It had a complete M20 girder fork front end. 

Oddly enough there is a GT500 in bits here at the moment, awaiting the arrival of little end bushes. Goes very well, has the same raging thirst of a 1959 Buick!

Edited October 26, 2020 by MrWolf

[rockershovel]

I had a couple of “shed finds” in the 1970s, when it was still possible to find largely original British bikes parked up and forgotten, years before. IMHO the supply dried up, long ago (although there was a supply of Triumphs from Colorado, Nevada and Arizona a few years ago). Harleys in particular; a couple of large dealers toured the Mid West with lorries in the AMF years, buying up anything they could find. A British chopper builder (Ray Leon) imported police surplus panheads from the Netherlands and another builder and aftermarket dealer brought in a couple of batches of police surplus Big Twins from the Middle East in the 1990s(?) 

 

WL parts and incomplete machines emerged from the Former Soviet Union countries in the 2000s and the Greek financial collapse resulted in a couple of stashes of NOS parts being brought to market. 

 

Interestingly enough, Sportsters still periodically surface in this condition, mostly through the efforts of back-yard dealers working through Craigslist and word of mouth. I’ve got a late (1978) XLCH which appears to have spent part of its life as a drag bike in the Wyoming / Nevada area and has enough provenance (and an obviously professional crankcase weld) to support its identity. I’ve had it running although it remains a “retirement project” at best. 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

The rigid B31 and B33 are quite nice machines, typical early postwar roadsters with solid handling. 

 

There were a number of rigid A7 and A10 hybrids built in the “chopper years” of the 1970s and early 80s, mostly using M20 frames which were cheap and easy to find at the time. B series rigids were always rare, but some used B series front loops with M type rear sections. The give-away is the single front down tube. Sometimes you see A or B type swingarm frames converted to rigid configuration as choppers. 

[2mmMark]

A recent acquisition, rescued from being a static exhibit in a proposed but covid-aborted coffee shop.

A Royal Enfield S2 250cc, in very tidy condition but needing some recommissioning.  The Type 74 Amal carb is doing its typical leaky thing, the clutch slips and all the control cables need remaking.  Nothing major and I've had the bike running this morning, nice quiet engine.

According to the dating certificate, it left the factory on 30th May 1938, dispatched to the Royal Enfield agent Bob Sergeant in Liverpool.  It still has the correct engine and frame numbers.

I have the correct speedo  to be refitted but I'll need to find or remake the necessary drive gears.

It's missing the valve lifter but I've found some of the required parts available for sale... in Australia!

[Kylestrome]

2 hours ago, 2mmMark said:

A Royal Enfield S2 250cc, in very tidy condition

 

It looks in great condition, considering that it's over 82 years old! That saddle doesn't look too comfortable, though.

[MrWolf]

Nice looking machine. It's not often you see thirties bikes compared even to the earlier machinery. We rescued a 1951 J2 twin port recently, I was surprised what parts I could get for it by cross referencing the illustrated parts lists on Hitchcock's Royal Enfield website. A lot of WD parts are a prewar carry over as is much of the J2 . If AMAL can't help with the carb, Martin Bratby seems to be able to source spares or do a complete rebuild.

 

Kudos for rescuing it from becoming some hipster ornament!

 

 

[MrWolf]

Those saddles are way better than they look and you never end up fighting for space with your passenger!

[2mmMark]

5 hours ago, Kylestrome said:

 

It looks in great condition, considering that it's over 82 years old! That saddle doesn't look too comfortable, though.

It's indeed much better than you'd think. It's very much like an old fashioned sprung bicycle saddle.

[2mmMark]

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Nice looking machine. It's not often you see thirties bikes compared even to the earlier machinery. We rescued a 1951 J2 twin port recently, I was surprised what parts I could get for it by cross referencing the illustrated parts lists on Hitchcock's Royal Enfield website. A lot of WD parts are a prewar carry over as is much of the J2 . If AMAL can't help with the carb, Martin Bratby seems to be able to source spares or do a complete rebuild.

 

Kudos for rescuing it from becoming some hipster ornament!

 

 

Nice!  I bet a lot of people think that's a twin.  The primary chaincase on your J2 is a dead spit for the one on my S2.

I had the S2 running this morning. I just managed to catch the clutch at the point before it slipped and it fired up.  Fresh petrol and a clean projected tip (BHP6S) plug did the job.

Being a member of the motorcycle team at Brooklands has given me the opportunity to get familiar with a wide range of pre-1939 machinery. My favourite of the collection is the 1931 Douglas EW 600.

incidentally, a 10 part documentary about the restoration work at Brooklands has been filmed and will be shown on the Yesterday channel sometime in the new year.

[MrWolf]

I suspect that your valve lifter will be the same item as the military or later models. Ours was stuck and way out of adjustment. The speedo drive (off the front wheel?) may also be as the WD. I can't remember if it's a Smith's item and whether common to other bikes or unique to Enfield hubs. In which case ISTR that Brough used Enfield hubs. Their owners club seem to have everything but buff log books remanufactured.

The J2 is surprisingly quick on A roads and dual carriageways. Especially now it has new solo gearing, clutch plates and wheel bearings. We even got a replacement for the missing tommy bar toolbox fastener from Hitchcock's.

[rockershovel]

Late 30s machinery is something of a “forgotten era”, most of the technical innovations of the post-1945 era first appeared during that period (swinging arm suspension, telescopic front forks, positive-stop foot gearchange, the parallel-twin engine) but none gained general acceptance at the time. 

 

It’s often forgotten, or not realised that the later 1930s were actually a time of economic revival, albeit a fragile and limited revival focussed around the new light engineering industries and the development of the early Garden Cities such as Letchworth. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

13 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I suspect that your valve lifter will be the same item as the military or later models. Ours was stuck and way out of adjustment. The speedo drive (off the front wheel?) may also be as the WD. I can't remember if it's a Smith's item and whether common to other bikes or unique to Enfield hubs. In which case ISTR that Brough used Enfield hubs. Their owners club seem to have everything but buff log books remanufactured.

The J2 is surprisingly quick on A roads and dual carriageways. Especially now it has new solo gearing, clutch plates and wheel bearings. We even got a replacement for the missing tommy bar toolbox fastener from Hitchcock's.

 

Late British singles in the 350cc - 500cc range are well suited to back roads and minor A roads, it’s their intended use. 

 

Brough Superior used Castle forks, licenced copies of the Harley Davidson pattern. IDK who actually manufactured them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Royal Enfield. It would need to be a well-equipped manufacturer, because the back (fixed) legs were a compound radius, oval shape, tapering over their length. By a curious coincidence they matched the radius rods on Model A Fords... or they were made on the same tooling, from the same supplier. Extended forks on older choppers were often fabricated using these rods, which were freely available at the time, being copied onto later Fords in the 40s and 50s. 

 

Enfield sold hubs, castings and forgings to the various small assembler-manufacturers for many years. 

 

Smiths sold the complete range of hub drives, cables and fittings - they are the same ones which appear on BSA, Triumph and Norton and in Burman and AMC gearboxes. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by rockershovel

[MrWolf]

That's what I was thinking, we managed to sort out the speedometer drive on an M20 that was built in '39 as a civilian model and hastily militarised when civilian machines were recalled from dealers early in WW2.

[rockershovel]

14 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

That's what I was thinking, we managed to sort out the speedometer drive on an M20 that was built in '39 as a civilian model and hastily militarised when civilian machines were recalled from dealers early in WW2.

 

The main thing to know is that there are differing gear ratios, depending on the speedo they were matched to. The difference is in the worm gear, so any speedo drive will fit any wheel (assuming they are both on the same hand, these drives come in left-hand and right-hand versions) but the recorded speed won’t necessarily be correct.

 

Rigid frame bikes typically have 19” or occasionally, 20” rear wheels while swing arm and plunger frame machines generally have 18” rims - good for about a 7% variation. The Triumph Tiger Cub sometimes has 16” rims, and some later swingarm twins have 17” rims (as do some unit construction BSA, notably the C15) which also have their own speedo ratios. 

 

The same applies to gearbox drive speedos, changing the rear drive ratio upsets the speedo reading... of course most riders neither knew, nor cared in those days and the accuracy of the recorded speed was unlikely ever to be checked. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by rockershovel

[MrWolf]

Had a similar problem with a 1955 James Cadet. Last one with a plunger frame, first one with 150cc engine. So it was fitted with an 80mph 2.5 inch speedometer and a pancake drive from the rear wheel. Those drives are more common to Triumphs, their fault for all that 18 inch wheel silliness from the late 50s. The James of course had British Hub Co wheels with 19" Dunlop rims. Which made finding the right drive fun. I have also had all that joy which is born of the BSA B & M series gearboxes fitted to singles for 1946-48 with a different take off for the Speedo in tank models. Only a few bits were common from my 1939 C10, but others could be found amongst the plunger A7 parts bins.

 

All part of the joys of vintage motoring. But at least you CAN fix them quite easily and keep them going for another half a century.

 

Green motoring without some salesman trying to guilt you into buying a new "eco friendly" (and of course profitable for them) machine in my book! 

[Kickstart]

My current bit of work is reassembling this engine for an rs125. Bought the bike new in 1993.

 

Fitted new bearings into the cases. Clutch, etc, to do now.

 

All the best

 

Katy