For those who like old Motorcycles.

[Dublodad]

Austin Seven engined Brough Superior that turn up at one of our "Toy Train" running days in July this year.

[Dublodad]

Plus these two views

[steve1]

Found these on the camera:

 

 

 

 

steve

[2mmMark]

It seems to be an obsession about cleaning, rather than restoration, the bolts had all been replaced with highly polished stainless rather than chrome, but it was shiny!

 

 

 

Peter

 

I would be very wary of replacing all bolts with stainless as some will be high-tensile bolts for good reason. Commonly available stainless bolts are A2 grade, you have to seek out specific high-tensile equivalents.  Same applies for components like wheel & swinging arm spindles.  The lack of corrosion is attractive but the wrong grade of material in a safety critical application could be disastrous. Non-critical fasteners are perfectly OK to be stainless. I use them myself but you do have to take precautions against galling, using copper grease etc.

 

However, you can also devalue a bike with non-standard fasteners. For example, Laverdas have fasteners with unique Laverda branding on them. These are very much sought after by restorers. This partly explains why a Laverda 750 twin cost £1900 when a 750 Triumph was £900.

 

Mark

[rockershovel]

However, you can also devalue a bike with non-standard fasteners. For example, Laverdas have fasteners with unique Laverda branding on them. These are very much sought after by restorers. This partly explains why a Laverda 750 twin cost £1900 when a 750 Triumph was £900.

 

Mark

I rather doubt that, TBH (not about details like branded fasteners affecting the sale price of restorations. That’s spot on). The Laverda SFC dates from a time when Triumph were well down the slippery slope, and I doubt that their cost/price structure made much sense by then. Italian sports bikes were never cheap.

 

For comparison, a 750 Honda Four cost £695 in 1969, £979 in 1974 and £1255 by 1977 - a reminder of the meaning of “inflation” and “devaluation”...

Edited November 8, 2017 by rockershovel

[PatB]

I rather doubt that, TBH (not about details like branded fasteners affecting the sale price of restorations. That’s spot on). The Laverda SFC dates from a time when Triumph were well down the slippery slope, and I doubt that their cost/price structure made much sense by then. Italian sports bikes were never cheap.

 

For comparison, a 750 Honda Four cost £695 in 1969, £979 in 1974 and £1255 by 1977 - a reminder of the meaning of “inflation” and “devaluation”...

 

And, based on my experience of old Hondas (during their cheap hack phase), the 1977 bike would have been of far poorer materials and build quality than the 1969 example. By the late 70s, Honda seemed to be making their bikes out of cheese and tinplate that even the Chinese would be embarrassed by today.

[2mmMark]

I rather doubt that, TBH (not about details like branded fasteners affecting the sale price of restorations. That’s spot on). The Laverda SFC dates from a time when Triumph were well down the slippery slope, and I doubt that their cost/price structure made much sense by then. Italian sports bikes were never cheap.

 

For comparison, a 750 Honda Four cost £695 in 1969, £979 in 1974 and £1255 by 1977 - a reminder of the meaning of “inflation” and “devaluation”...

 

I'm talking about a Laverda SF3, which had pretty much the best of everything available bolted to it.  ND instruments, Bosch electrics, top of the range Brembo brakes and Ceriani suspension etc.

Plus very high quality own make components and castings. All assembled on a limited production basis.

 

I'm not sure if the motorcycles were ever truly profitable for the Laverda family but first and foremost they were enthusiasts making the kind of bikes that interested them.  I suspect their other business supported the manufacture.

 

The SFC was a "road legal" production racer built on an even more limited basis with some unique components never used on the road bikes. I don't recall what that cost new. I just wish I'd bought one when it was offered to me at a price I could just about afford!  Ah well, so be it.  I'll have to be content with my two ordinary twins.

[N15class]

My mate had an SF1. Fitted with Yamaha front discs rather than the 4 leading shoes. It was also fitted SFC cams and pistons.

[N15class]

Here's my first Triumph Trident. This was the square tank British build, but with an 850 Norman Hyde conversation. I have no pictures of my pear drop 1000cc Hyde converted one. Great fun to ride but very heavy. A pig to set up the timing and carbs. Also most uneconomic if riden at speed. Sometimes less than 25 to the gallon.

 

 

Unfortunately these were the only pics of my 20 or so British bikes.

[rockershovel]

High-spec, limited production fast roadsters based on racing machines and supported by other businesses were an Italian “thing”, MV Augusta comes to mind. Aermacchi made some rather lovely little single-cylinder 250s and 350s.

 

The Laverda SFC (and the Jota, come to that) WERE rather tremendous, in their way.

 

The British industry never really grasped the concept of making, and selling quality engineering. Look at BMW, who made high specification tourers to a quality Triumph and BSA never grasped, and sold them for the price of cars... I greatly doubt that BMW motorcycles were profitable in the 50s and 60s

[PatB]

High-spec, limited production fast roadsters based on racing machines and supported by other businesses were an Italian “thing”, MV Augusta comes to mind. Aermacchi made some rather lovely little single-cylinder 250s and 350s.

 

The Laverda SFC (and the Jota, come to that) WERE rather tremendous, in their way.

 

The British industry never really grasped the concept of making, and selling quality engineering. Look at BMW, who made high specification tourers to a quality Triumph and BSA never grasped, and sold them for the price of cars... I greatly doubt that BMW motorcycles were profitable in the 50s and 60s

 

I suspect that BMW motorcycles were subsidised by the car business at least up to the point when Ewan and Charlie inspired the sales explosion of the GS series.

 

From memory there was a period when you could score a cheap Aermacchi single as long as you could live with (or were prepared to change) the daft cruiser styling that was applied to the Harley badged variants. ISTR seeing them advertised back in the late 80s for what seemed like pennies 'cos neither Harley fans nor afficionados of Italian exotica wanted them and noone else knew what they were.

[57xx]

If you mean the numberplate is illegal because it's silver on black - over 40-year old vehicles can now be re-registered as historic and then qualify for nil road tax and also 'black and white' numberplates. They also (most, but not all) qualify for not requiring an MoT test.

 

Unless there is an exception for vintage plates, it's still illegal, regardless of it's colour.

Edited November 10, 2017 by 57xx

[57xx]

I would be very wary of replacing all bolts with stainless as some will be high-tensile bolts for good reason. Commonly available stainless bolts are A2 grade, you have to seek out specific high-tensile equivalents.  Same applies for components like wheel & swinging arm spindles.  The lack of corrosion is attractive but the wrong grade of material in a safety critical application could be disastrous. Non-critical fasteners are perfectly OK to be stainless. I use them myself but you do have to take precautions against galling, using copper grease etc.

 

Indeed, I've winced many a time when I've seen "restored" bikes with regular stainless fasteners holding on their brake calipers and disks. Also whilst they think "great, my bolts won't rust", they don't think about the galvanic corrosion with stainless being more reactive with the aluminium that they're bolted into than normal mild steel.

[Coppercap]

Unless there is an exception for vintage plates, it's still illegal, regardless of it's colour.

Please explain what's illegal.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/533255/inf104-vehicle-registration-numbers-and-number-plates.pdf

 

page 10-11:

Traditional number plates for vehicles made before 1 January 1973

Vehicles made before 1 January 1973 may display traditional ’black and white’ number plates (for example, white, silver or grey characters on a black plate).

Since April 2016 vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1976 can display the older style plates. You must: have applied to DVLA, and be registered within the ‘historic vehicles’ tax class. Vehicles constructed 40 or more years ago are exempt from tax. The 40 year exemption date rolls forward automatically each year on 1 April.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Coppercap

[57xx]

Plates should have the supplier name and postcode on:

 

https://www.bnma.org/legislation.html

 

As I said, I don't know if vintage plates are somehow exempt to this. The supplier still has to do the identity and entitlement checks as per a regular plate.

[Coppercap]

Plates should have the supplier name and postcode on:

 

https://www.bnma.org/legislation.html

 

As I said, I don't know if vintage plates are somehow exempt to this. The supplier still has to do the identity and entitlement checks as per a regular plate.

If a plate was made up before the requirement for the maker's details to be on a new plate came into force, then that requirement doesn't apply. Lots of companies make 'show plates' without a makers details on, and if fitted to a vehicle registered before the requirement on new plates existed, who's to say how long they have been fitted?

[laurenceb]

Going by the number of cars that are on the road with plates that dont meet the regulations there is no enforcement of the rules anyway. I know of only one prosecution for an illegal plate and that was 40 years ago.

[rockershovel]

If a plate was made up before the requirement for the maker's details to be on a new plate came into force, then that requirement doesn't apply. Lots of companies make 'show plates' without a makers details on, and if fitted to a vehicle registered before the requirement on new plates existed, who's to say how long they have been fitted?

That’s my understanding, that “traditional black and white plates” means “as originally fitted”

[Coppercap]

That’s my understanding, that “traditional black and white plates” means “as originally fitted”

But as I've already pointed out, if the vehicle is over 40 years old it can be (but doesn't need to be) re-registered as 'historic'', and thus qualify for nil tax, and also 'black and white' plates (even if it was not permitted to have them fitted originally), if the owner is vain enough to fit them. Don't re-register as 'historic', and you will continue to pay tax on the vehicle, but also don't qualify for 'black and white' plates. Quite why anyone wants to fit old plates on a 'newer' vehicle beats me - it's in the same league as those who mess about with character spacing and fonts, and those 'extra' fixing bolts in odd places on the plate...

[rockershovel]

But as I've already pointed out, if the vehicle is over 40 years old it can be (but doesn't need to be) re-registered as 'historic'', and thus qualify for nil tax, and also 'black and white' plates (even if it was not permitted to have them fitted originally), if the owner is vain enough to fit them. Don't re-register as 'historic', and you will continue to pay tax on the vehicle, but also don't qualify for 'black and white' plates. Quite why anyone wants to fit old plates on a 'newer' vehicle beats me - it's in the same league as those who mess about with character spacing and fonts, and those 'extra' fixing bolts in odd places on the plate...

No, you said “who’s to know how long those plates have been fitted”

 

That’s not the wording. The wording is “as originally fitted” and apply to vehicles registered before 1973. There is no requirement for the plate itself to be pre-1973

 

Here’s the actual guidance

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/533255/inf104-vehicle-registration-numbers-and-number-plates.pdf

 

In practice, little attention seems to paid to the issue.

Edited November 12, 2017 by rockershovel

[steve1]

This was in the cafe of the motel we stayed at with Spalding show.

 

 

steve

[57xx]

If a plate was made up before the requirement for the maker's details to be on a new plate came into force, then that requirement doesn't apply. Lots of companies make 'show plates' without a makers details on, and if fitted to a vehicle registered before the requirement on new plates existed, who's to say how long they have been fitted?

 

That bike is from 1975 so is only eligible for a "historic" plate under the rolling 40 year rule that was introduced in 2015, well after the 2001 regs came in. Previous to the 40 year rule it would have had to been registered prior to 1973 to display a black plate. Based on that fact, the bike would have had to have the regular yellow/black plate up until 2015, so the plate shown would have only been on for two years if it's intended to be road legal. If it is a show plate it could have been on for however long as you say, but the discussion wan't about show plates (which aren't road legal).

 

That said, looking at a few suppliers sites, none of them show any sample plates with a maker name on, so it appears that the exemption to current regs may also bypass part of the anti-cloning measures for the sake of vanity.

 

I agree, I don't know people put them on, it's not original as the bike was in 1975 and doesn't add to the look of it.

[rockershovel]

Looking around my garage, of six variously complete and incomplete machines, only one has a fully legal set of licence plates, and that ISN’T the most recent one... realistically though, no one pays any attention to this. As long as they can GATSO you, that’s all the police care.

 

My 1976 Sportster actually has a 1975 registration (age related plate) and has a black-and-silver rear plate PLUS a black-on-yellow one. Apparently the PO fitted this for MoT and changed it again afterwards, I can’t be bothered so it still has the “MoT plate” fitted.

 

I regularly see sports bikes on the A14 and M6 with the number plate almost completely concealed under the seat, in front of the rear wheel. They don’t appear to feel any urgency to change this..

[spikey]

This was in the cafe of the motel we stayed at with Spalding show.

 

IMG_1128.JPG

 

steve

Am I alone in thinking something's strange with that front mudguard?  There seems to be a lot more daylight 'twixt guard and tyre than I remember on any of my Beezers.

 

Nice bit of period carpet, though ...

Edited November 12, 2017 by spikey

[Coppercap]

Am I alone in thinking something's strange with that front mudguard?  There seems to be a lot more daylight 'twixt guard and tyre than I remember on any of my Beezers.

 

Nice bit of period carpet, though ...

 

It certainly looks like it's for a larger wheel to me...