Trawsfynydd Railway Society

[Oldddudders]

Congratulations on such a positive post, Rob, in the face of the inevitable scepticism. I like positivity, although have yet to be convinced that it alone will move mountains. And you will need bucketloads of the stuff to get past the initial obstacles and frightening costs. Patience may also prove to be a substantial virtue.

 

I am not utterly conversant with your intended route, although I have been to and via Blaenau on several occasions - including once on duty, arriving by Festiniog train, leaving by standard gauge - and my last house in England had a ceramic nameplate made there. But the attractions of the area as a whole are not lost on me, and I think about 35 years ago I stayed in a pub in Trawsfynydd.

 

I also admit to having been Project Manager for the closure of a railway in the mid-80s - which is now a thriving preserved line, the Spa Valley Railway. So it can happen.

 

I hope your dreams are not in vain. 

[Rob_Knight]

Hi Ray,

 

I often wonder how Stelios was thinking when he started EasyJet to fight the likes of BA, no-one gave him a chance but now EasyJet s bigger than BA; if you go to Llandudno Junction you will see all the car garages right next to each other so you could argue that experience tells us that putting all similar "services" close to each other is actually a good thing.

 

Like you I don't know if we are at saturation point but I agree there must be one.

 

Regarding USP's; I would like to believe we could tempt people out of Llandudno for the day to travel on the Conwy Valley line to Blaenau and the BFTR to Traws to enjoy the new facilities Antur Stiniog are building; or maybe we could persuade Shearings to drop their customers off in Porthmadog as they do now to travel on the FR but instead of picking their passengers up in Blaenau they meet them in Traws after they have travelled on the FR and the BFTR. I also wonder if we could run a restaurant car (I work a lot in Magog, Canada and there is a great restaurant train there), maybe picking up in Betws and and travelling to Traws and back - duck a l'orange on the way and profiteroles on the way back and plenty of time for wine.

 

Of course these are dreams; the reality was yesterday sitting in my digger and trying to scrape all the growth away.

 

So I guess if we don't try we certainly will fail - so we are trying

 

Robert

 

P.s. Can you send a photo of the hat you will be eating - wouldn't want you cheating!

[Rob_Knight]

Congratulations on such a positive post, Rob, in the face of the inevitable scepticism. I like positivity, although have yet to be convinced that it alone will move mountains. And you will need bucketloads of the stuff to get past the initial obstacles and frightening costs. Patience may also prove to be a substantial virtue.

 

I am not utterly conversant with your intended route, although I have been to and via Blaenau on several occasions - including once on duty, arriving by Festiniog train, leaving by standard gauge - and my last house in England had a ceramic nameplate made there. But the attractions of the area as a whole are not lost on me, and I think about 35 years ago I stayed in a pub in Trawsfynydd.

 

I also admit to having been Project Manager for the closure of a railway in the mid-80s - which is now a thriving preserved line, the Spa Valley Railway. So it can happen.

 

I hope your dreams are not in vain.

 

I am not sure but I guess they have redecorated the pub you stayed at - you should come back to see and whilst you are here we would appreciate some help to rid the line of the forest that has grown!

[PhilH]

So I guess if we don't try we certainly will fail - so we are trying

Robert

 

Well done! Good luck with it all, will have to visit one day.

[coachmann]

I took loads of photos and video up there on the Trawsfynydd section, slept in fields beside the line on hot sunny days waiting for either the gunpowder or flask train amid lovely unspoiled countryside. In fact, one wouldn't know it was slate country. It is easy to be up there and imagine a little train chugging along, although I admit my imagination does not stretch to a flippin' Gronk. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by coachmann

[Gareth.Mav]

As a member of the society, I am very pleased to be involved with this project, this railway is crying out to be restored and preserved for the future, boasting some of the most beautiful scenery in the UK. I appreciate there are sceptical people out there, asking questions about finances, management, do we need another heritage railway? etc, but, if there hadn't been small groups of people out there back in the "good old days" to step into the breach and preserve our history, we wouldn't have any heritage railways today. As a young volunteer I am keen to be a part of the project from the beginning, keen to see it reach its full potential, yes there are lots of hurdles in the way but we must take them one at a time. The society is having an EGM on the 28th Jan and this will be an opportunity to learn more about the society and companies aims, operations, rolling stock and overall future plans.

Although it is early days, I am very proud of what the volunteers have achieved so far and want to stress that Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

"A person can make a change, a group can make a difference" and i for one really believe that with time, this Railway can make a real difference to the people and the area.

[ForestPines]

I took loads of photos and video up there on the Trawsfynydd section, slept in fields beside the line on hot sunny days waiting for either the gunpowder or flask train amid lovely unspoiled countryside. In fact, one wouldn't know it was slate country. It is easy to be up there and imagine a little train chugging along, although I admit my imagination does not stretch to a flippin' Gronk.

I'm not sure it *is* slate country around Trawsfynydd. The slate geology stops (or stops surfacing, at least) not very far south of Blaenau and exploitable geology switches to granite and its relatives - hence the granite quarries and lead mine along the route of the FR, and the various small manganese mines in the Rhinog hills.

 

Going back to the main topic: it's admirable that all you TRS people are willing to jump in and pitch in and do something - and to promote yourselves publically. However I can't see, practically, how it is going to work in a way that benefits the area as a whole.

 

There is already a very successful railway in Blaenau, so it seems slightly strange that a lot of the pronouncements in the past from the TRS completely ignore this and read as if the area is some sort of railway desert. The TRS has said they will do a whole host of things that the FR already does for the area, and are presenting them as benefits, as if the FR didn't already do them and do them very well.

 

Moreover, as someone said upthread, "there is also the big question of the total lack of any of the facilities needed." I realise there are people on this thread who are involved with the line and volunteer on it. I have to ask: when you're there, don't you look around and wonder just exactly where all the promised and required facilities are going to go?

Edited January 10, 2017 by ForestPines

[SWTH]

There is already a very successful railway in Blaenau, so it seems slightly strange that a lot of the pronouncements in the past from the TRS completely ignore this and read as if the area is some sort of railway desert. The TRS has said they will do a whole host of things that the FR already does for the area, and are presenting them as benefits, as if the FR didn't already do them and do them very well.

Exactly this.

 

Take a look at the FRCo station. It's basic, solid and secure. The reason is that there is virtually no point in providing anything more as the facilities wouldn't be used. Almost everyone who arrives at Blaenau Ffestiniog on the FR goes straight back to Porthmadog.

 

As I have said before, the FRCo are exceptionally good at tapping potential sources of income, and well know exactly what potential there is at Blaenau - very little. What makes the TRS think they know better than the worlds oldest continually operating railway company?

 

The reason that three railways can survive centering on Porthmadog is that each offers something different. The FR offers the history, the WHR offers spectacular scenery, and the 64Co is the family afternoon when they don't have time to do the FR or WHR, or want something more interactive.

 

The line from Blaenau to Traws doesn't offer anything new, and simply cannot generate the traffic required to be sustainable.

 

I'm interested by the comparison Rob Knight has drawn between themselves and EasyJet. When EasyJet started they knew they would be able to take a certain share of the market with an aggressive pricing strategy and a no-frills experience. That's fine when you're providing a service that people have to use to get somewhere. But on a railway where the point is actually taking the journey itself, the EasyJet comparison falls down. EasyJet were well funded to start with, and knew which bit of the market to exploit. There isn't a market for cheap, no frills heritage railways.

 

I wouldn't set much store by local support either. I used to work in the bus industry and if buses were run based on what potential users said - promised! - they would make use of, every bus company in the rural parts of the U.K. would go bankrupt within weeks. I've seen so many times a new service start, everyone jumps on for the first few weeks to see how it goes, then trade quickly drops off. If it goes below the level of being sustainable, notice to terminate the route is given which usually causes uproar amongst the local community who rarely, if ever, use it. The locals won't hardly ever use the railway, especially when there is a perfectly good bus service that many of them have free passes for.

 

I agree with previous posters who have said about reaching saturation point with heritage railways - we should be putting our efforts towards the many existing projects, and making them successful, rather than starting more new 'pet' projects. Personally, I'd like to see the Teign Valley line, or maybe the Newquay - Perranporth - Truro line rebuilt, but I know neither are possible.

 

I'm sorry to sound so negative, many times I've driven along the A4212 and wished to see (or even better, be on board!) a 57xx or 46xx hauling a short mixed train over Nant Prysor viaduct. I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong, but I know that is something that will never be seen again.

Edited January 10, 2017 by SWTH

[TomJ]

I don't like the comparison with Easyjet one bit. The budget airlines had the objective of taking traffic off the established airlines - they were in direct competition with BA etc, offering a no frills service at a lower price. So this comparison would suggest competing with the Ffestiniog and taking passengers off them. I think I fight for passengers would not be good for anyone.

 

Because I'm not sure how much more you can grow the market for steam travel in Blaneau Ffestiniog. Are there many extra visitors who don't come at the moment but would if there was a standard gauge railway as an alternative to the FR? The gauge thing won't be an issue to most non-enthusiast families. In fact I suspect part of the draw of the FR (and the other Great Little Trains of Wales) is the small, 'cute', narrow gauge trains themselves

[SWTH]

To take on the FRCo and attempt to take market share from them would be extremely foolish.

[The Stationmaster]

The one advantage the Trawsfynydd line has is that it's next to a reasonably busy road route and could thus potentially attract visitors on that basis.  But that in turn means facilities near the road and not in Blaenau which - like the FR - I continue to see more as a transfer location rather than a potential destination in itself.

 

But long before all that come the practical matters.  Many new ideas in the preservation world have been dismissed as non-starters and have then disproved that contention but they need various things to enable them to do that - people, support locally, and massive amounts of money.  I suspect this one would only stand a chance of competing with the many existing North Walian lines if it offers steam haulage and decent rolling stock which in turn means not just acquiring such things but building a base to house and maintain them.  Then of course there is the paperwork and admin side - masses of it and not of itself difficult but needing folk who know what they're doing, especially if starting from scratch.  So it means building a team of many talents and abilities and goes well beyond clearing vegetation and changing rotted sleepers.

 

An enormous challenge and I know, from examples elsewhere, that it can be done but I do wonder if there is in the immediate area or within easy reach of it the necessary pool of people and skills plus - obviously - the huge sums of money that will be needed (when even the appeal to buy a diesel shunter seemed to have such a disappointing result)?  Many projects have made headway because they were able to provide a viable base for other projects which involved loco/rolling stock ownership and facilities for 'restoration' of such things - unless this project can provide that, in the way that another fledging scheme elsewhere is doing, I do wonder about its viability.

[Marshall5]

I'd be interested to know what Rob and Gareth have against joining and working with one of the already established lines in the area.  Maybe it's as simple as wanting their 'own' trainset or a 'big fish/little pond' thing. 

Ray.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Marshall5

[Rob_Knight]

I'm not sure it *is* slate country around Trawsfynydd. The slate geology stops (or stops surfacing, at least) not very far south of Blaenau and exploitable geology switches to granite and its relatives - hence the granite quarries and lead mine along the route of the FR, and the various small manganese mines in the Rhinog hills.

 

Going back to the main topic: it's admirable that all you TRS people are willing to jump in and pitch in and do something - and to promote yourselves publically. However I can't see, practically, how it is going to work in a way that benefits the area as a whole.

 

There is already a very successful railway in Blaenau, so it seems slightly strange that a lot of the pronouncements in the past from the TRS completely ignore this and read as if the area is some sort of railway desert. The TRS has said they will do a whole host of things that the FR already does for the area, and are presenting them as benefits, as if the FR didn't already do them and do them very well.

 

Moreover, as someone said upthread, "there is also the big question of the total lack of any of the facilities needed." I realise there are people on this thread who are involved with the line and volunteer on it. I have to ask: when you're there, don't you look around and wonder just exactly where all the promised and required facilities are going to go?

 

Hi ForestPines,

 

I love the FR and the regular walk I have with my dog is from Blaenau, my home, to Tan-y-Bwlch and back home on the train (neither me or the dog are fit enough to walk back) and I praise them for the success they have in BF and I most certainly don't see it as a desert. In fact the reason I live in Blaenau is because of that super railway.

 

There are many options for the facilities we need and Network Rail are very helpful towards us on this but for the foreseeable future we want to focus on line clearance.

 

We do welcome your feedback

 

Thanks

[tomparryharry]

As some might know I volunteer on the Mid Hants Railway. I've often asked the same question about our railway, and we're not exactly in the most scenic area in the country, nor a top holiday destination, not as pretty as other railways....and yet, whilst we have our struggles as do all heritage railways, we seem to do alright.

 

So it would seem that you can't apply logic to this question, some work, some don't.

 

I think the Mid Hants is ok. I sometimes work out of Alton, and the idea of getting off the mainline, and stepping back to the sixties has a certain charm. Just a pity it doesn't work up to Waterloo!

 

Ian

[Rob_Knight]

I don't like the comparison with Easyjet one bit. The budget airlines had the objective of taking traffic off the established airlines - they were in direct competition with BA etc, offering a no frills service at a lower price. So this comparison would suggest competing with the Ffestiniog and taking passengers off them. I think I fight for passengers would not be good for anyone.

 

Because I'm not sure how much more you can grow the market for steam travel in Blaneau Ffestiniog. Are there many extra visitors who don't come at the moment but would if there was a standard gauge railway as an alternative to the FR? The gauge thing won't be an issue to most non-enthusiast families. In fact I suspect part of the draw of the FR (and the other Great Little Trains of Wales) is the small, 'cute', narrow gauge trains themselves

 

Hi TomJ

 

I used to work for an EasyJet company and your description of objectives isn't totally correct. You will agree that the number of air passengers today is soaring (sorry for the pun) so although I agree the budget airlines did initially take travel from the established airlines what they really did was attract a whole new generation of fliers so now the amount of airmiles flown is massively in excess of the miles flown when they started. What we can take from this is actually we are not just "competing" from the same people but actually we are attracting new passengers. British Airways carry more passengers now than they did when Easyjet started.

 

I honestly believe the number of passengers all the great railways see will increase, not just because of the BFTR but all the quality railways we see today.

 

Thanks

 

Robert

[PhilH]

I'd be interested to know what Rob and Gareth have against joining and working with one of the already established lines in the area. Maybe it's as simple as wanting their 'own' trainset or a 'big fish/little pond' thing.

Ray.

Or maybe it's not. Why cast aspersions on their motives?

 

Whether they succeed or not they are getting off their a*ses and doing something to make it happen, which is more than most who have spouted about this have ever done, are doing or will ever do.

Edited January 10, 2017 by PhilH

[Rob_Knight]

I'd be interested to know what Rob and Gareth have against joining and working with one of the already established lines in the area.  Maybe it's as simple as wanting their 'own' trainset or a 'big fish/little pond' thing. 

Ray.

Hi Ray,

 

I can't speak for Gareth but for me it is that I look at this railway whenever I open my bedroom curtains. Thats it. I have never worked on any other railway.

 

Thanks

 

Robert

[Marshall5]

 

 

Or maybe it's not. Why cast aspersions on their motives?

 

Whether they succeed or not they are getting off their a*ses and doing something to make it happen, which is more than most who have spouted about this have ever done, are doing or will ever do.

I asked a  straightforward question and Robert kindly gave me a straightforward answer.   I volunteer up to 4 days a week and have done so since 1966 as I stated in post 100 so I reckon I do get off my "a*s" and do my share.  Do you?

Ray.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Marshall5

[RJS1977]

Exactly this.

 

Take a look at the FRCo station. It's basic, solid and secure. The reason is that there is virtually no point in providing anything more as the facilities wouldn't be used. Almost everyone who arrives at Blaenau Ffestiniog on the FR goes straight back to Porthmadog.

 

 

 

Presumably because there's nothing much to do in Blaenau when you get there... But *if* BFTR get up and running, there will be (and personally, I think that - provided the timetables work out and it's not too far to walk to wherever the BFTR station ends up) that the proposed country park at Llyn Trawsfynydd - presumably with picnic tables etc - would be a better end to a journey than a rather depressing town and a station with little in the way of facilities). Not denying that there aren't obstacles to overcome, but I think with careful co-operation it could complement the FfR quite nicely.

[PhilH]

I asked a straightforward question and Robert kindly gave me a straightforward answer. I volunteer up to 4 days a week and have done so since 1966 as I stated in post 100 so I reckon I do get off my "a*s" and do my share. Do you?

Ray.

Yep. The profile pic might be a clue. Edited January 11, 2017 by PhilH

[John_Hughes]

If you'd like an impression of the route, there's an interesting DMU simulation of it on YouTube here.

Edited January 11, 2017 by John_Hughes

[coachmann]

The original 1982 footbridge at Blaenau Central was, I believe, insisted on so that cross-platform passengers would walk via the town before accessing the other platform. I never saw anything in Blaenau Ffestiniog that looked like a welcome to visitors, in fact it always looks shut..!  Eventually the footbridge was altered to suit the railways and a level crossing put in as well.

 

It is generally recognised that ticketing originates at Porthmadog on the FR but those of us living on the North Wales coast start from the Blaenau end......naturally. A rail trip on the standard gauge towards Llan Festiniog and Trawsfynydd through totally different scenery to that on the FR would be neat and could hardly be said to be taking money off the narrow gauge line if folk set out with the intention of going to Traws. There are other railway 'magnets' around here at Caernarfon, Llanberis, Welshpool, Llangollen, Tywyn and Bala. I hope we can add Trawsfynydd before I depart.

Edited January 11, 2017 by coachmann

[Oldddudders]

I asked a  straightforward question and Robert kindly gave me a straightforward answer.   I volunteer up to 4 days a week and have done so since 1966 as I stated in post 100 so I reckon I do get off my "a*s" and do my share.  Do you?

Ray.

 

I think Phil had made that very clear in his earlier post, for those who didn't already know. 

As some might know I volunteer on the Mid Hants Railway. I've often asked the same question about our railway, and we're not exactly in the most scenic area in the country, nor a top holiday destination, not as pretty as other railways....and yet, whilst we have our struggles as do all heritage railways, we seem to do alright.

 

So it would seem that you can't apply logic to this question, some work, some don't.

[ForestPines]

Hi ForestPines,

 

I love the FR and the regular walk I have with my dog is from Blaenau, my home, to Tan-y-Bwlch and back home on the train (neither me or the dog are fit enough to walk back) and I praise them for the success they have in BF and I most certainly don't see it as a desert. In fact the reason I live in Blaenau is because of that super railway.

 

There are many options for the facilities we need and Network Rail are very helpful towards us on this but for the foreseeable future we want to focus on line clearance.

 

We do welcome your feedback

 

Thanks

Hi Rob,

 

I wasn't referring particularly to the things you've posted on this thread; more to things posted in the past on the various multiple Facebook pages associated with the line and quotes published in the press. I will try to hunt down some examples later.

 

Incidentally a post on Facebook from September said that the line to Maentwrog Road is to be "reopened by next year" - presumably now this year. Is this still on target?

[avonside1563]

The one advantage the Trawsfynydd line has is that it's next to a reasonably busy road route and could thus potentially attract visitors on that basis.  But that in turn means facilities near the road and not in Blaenau which - like the FR - I continue to see more as a transfer location rather than a potential destination in itself.

 

But long before all that come the practical matters.  Many new ideas in the preservation world have been dismissed as non-starters and have then disproved that contention but they need various things to enable them to do that - people, support locally, and massive amounts of money.  I suspect this one would only stand a chance of competing with the many existing North Walian lines if it offers steam haulage and decent rolling stock which in turn means not just acquiring such things but building a base to house and maintain them.  Then of course there is the paperwork and admin side - masses of it and not of itself difficult but needing folk who know what they're doing, especially if starting from scratch.  So it means building a team of many talents and abilities and goes well beyond clearing vegetation and changing rotted sleepers.

 

An enormous challenge and I know, from examples elsewhere, that it can be done but I do wonder if there is in the immediate area or within easy reach of it the necessary pool of people and skills plus - obviously - the huge sums of money that will be needed (when even the appeal to buy a diesel shunter seemed to have such a disappointing result)?  Many projects have made headway because they were able to provide a viable base for other projects which involved loco/rolling stock ownership and facilities for 'restoration' of such things - unless this project can provide that, in the way that another fledging scheme elsewhere is doing, I do wonder about its viability.

Several valid points from Mike there, and for a comparison perhaps take a look at the Cambrian Railway at Oswestry who have had a disused railway 'ready to run over' for many many years, and yet they are only just managing to get trains running over a short length of the line having spent decades restricted to running over a few hundred yards in the yard. They have limited facilities and stock and, presumably, a small number of active volunteers which may have restricted them over the years. Yet they are only a couple miles off one of the main trunk roads in the UK so in an ideal position to attract enthusiasts and volunteers, and catch tourists heading into/out of Wales, but Oswestry doesn't seem to have much of a draw as the A5 now bypasses it nicely. So, as much as I'd like to see something happen with this project I do feel it's going to take a heck of a lot more than clearing the track and buying a well used 08 to get this project moving. Something like a wealthy benefactor or maybe a helpful loco owner willing to give an undertaking to provide their loco once the line is ready would be a good start.