Timed shuttle for DCC (branch line off main line)

[Mallard60022]

I've looked at a couple of threads on here but still unsure of the versatility or suitability of the units.

I would like to have an unattended (most of the time), timed (or 'right away' from a push button or Controller 'signal') shuttle with prototypical deceleration, for a push pull branch train. The 'Branch, which is actually just a meandering loop will be connected to the main line in two places, but could be a separate 'section' when in 'shuttle mode' (e.g switch out of shuttle mode if required as a 'through route').

Any suggestions for a simple plug and play Unit compatible with NCE Power/Procab would be welcome, if such a Unit exists. I know very little about electronics so please keep things easy to understand. I would not be able to 'create' my own system using parts.

Thank you.

Phil 

[traction]

As you are using the NCE equipment, then as a plug and play module I would use the mini panel.

You will need to put some sort of reed switch/magnet where you want the loco to start to slow down and stop, but other than that, just program the mini panel so that when it sees the input from the reed switch/magnet, the loco will slow down, you could even have sound the whistle if so desired if its a sound loco, come to a stop wait for how ever long you program it for then start off, again sounding the whistle if you so desire.

 

I think you will need to fit isolation sections if using any other form, such as ABC braking (built into some decoders) or Brake on DC again built in to some decoders.

 

The mini panel will allow you to program different things to happen when it sees an input, the input as I've said can be from a reed switch hidden between the sleepers and a magnet fitted to the bottom of the loco, or using a Heathcote electronics IRDOT

 

Even using DCC BIT switches will require reed switches/magnets and an isolation section.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Ian. I'll have a look at that on the Concepts' site.

P

Looks like I could put other stuff through it?

P

[traction]

Thanks Ian. I'll have a look at that on the Concepts' site.

P

Looks like I could put other stuff through it?

P

 

Not to osure what you mean by putting other stuff through it.

The NCE Mini Panel can have 30 inputs.

You then program it using the PowerCab throttle, so that when it sees inputs you tell it what to do, could be control a loco as in speed up, slow down sound bells, whistles etc.

You could also program it to operate accessories, its actually quite a powerful bit of kit if you have NCE equipment:-

 

This link has some PDF's that you can download and read, which I followed when I had a mini panel.

 

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200980015-Mini-Panel-The-NCE-Route-and-Automation-Controller

 

There are also some videos that will show you what else it can do, like I say a very powerful bit of kit if using the NCE system.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[tender]

I've looked at a couple of threads on here but still unsure of the versatility or suitability of the units.

I would like to have an unattended (most of the time), timed (or 'right away' from a push button or Controller 'signal') shuttle with prototypical deceleration, for a push pull branch train. The 'Branch, which is actually just a meandering loop will be connected to the main line in two places, but could be a separate 'section' when in 'shuttle mode' (e.g switch out of shuttle mode if required as a 'through route').

Any suggestions for a simple plug and play Unit compatible with NCE Power/Procab would be welcome, if such a Unit exists. I know very little about electronics so please keep things easy to understand. I would not be able to 'create' my own system using parts.

Thank you.

Phil 

 

We do this on our exhibition layout 'Camel Quay'. It uses a NCE PowerCab system for DCC and the unattended 'Push/Pull' service is driven using a NCE MiniPanel on command by pressing a button on the Mini Panel box, could be just as easily be a timed operation. It also does the sound functions for the Loco (Guards whistle, Loco Whistle etc) and sets the 'route' to and from the fiddle yard/Station terminus as well as setting the appropriate Acceleration/deceleration CV's depending on direction of travel. The MiniPanel will need programming (from a PowerCab or ProCab) to suit the layout but its all pretty simple stuff. The MiniPanel just plugs into the NCE bus, the only wiring required is a pushbutton to the MiniPanel.

 

If you want to know more detail let me know.

 

Ray.

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Ian. I meant that it could do more for me than just operate the shuttle loco.

 

We do this on our exhibition layout 'Camel Quay'. It uses a NCE PowerCab system for DCC and the unattended 'Push/Pull' service is driven using a NCE MiniPanel on command by pressing a button on the Mini Panel box, could be just as easily be a timed operation. It also does the sound functions for the Loco (Guards whistle, Loco Whistle etc) and sets the 'route' to and from the fiddle yard/Station terminus as well as setting the appropriate Acceleration/deceleration CV's depending on direction of travel. The MiniPanel will need programming (from a PowerCab or ProCab) to suit the layout but its all pretty simple stuff. The MiniPanel just plugs into the NCE bus, the only wiring required is a pushbutton to the MiniPanel.

 

If you want to know more detail let me know.

 

Ray.

Ray that would be lovely if you could. Sounds exactly what I could do. I am ignorant when it comes to what DCC can now provide. 

Something I could copy and paste so I don't forget would be great. PM if you wish but maybe others would like to see what you do and how you do it? I'll stick it in a file and maybe in many months time when i get to sort this bit out I could get in touch again.

Many thanks indeed.

Phil

[tender]

Ok Phil, firstly a bit of (simplified) background to how a NCE MiniPanel works.

As Ian said, the MiniPanel has 30 inputs.

Momentarily connecting one of these to 0volts (the supply GND on the MinPanel) sets off a sequence of 4 commands (steps) as determined by the program in the MiniPanel. You program the MiniPanel from the handset of a PowerCab or PowerPro system.

So, for Input 1 say.

 

Input 1, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45)

Input 1, step 2 - Speed 20 FWD (set speed step 20 in forward direction)

Input 1, step 3 - Delay 1/4 20 (delay 20 1/4 seconds [5 seconds])

Input 1, step 4 - Speed 0 FWD (set speed step 0)

 

Momentarily connecting pin 1 to 0volts will select Loco with address 45, accelerate it to speed 20 (as determined by the loco acceleration CV3) wait 5 seconds and then decelerate to speed 0 (as determined by the loco deceleration CV4)

 

Having only 4 commands per input can be limiting but by sacrificing Input 2 we can use these commands for Input 1, we do this with the LINK command.

 

So expanding on the above program

Input 1, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45)

Input 1, step 2 - CV 3 (acceleration CV)

Input 1, step 3 - CV Data 5 (sets acceleration CV3 to 5 [fast])

Input 1, step 4 - LINK 2

 

Input 2, step 1 - CV 4 (deceleration CV)

Input 2, step 2 - CV Data 120 (sets deceleration CV4 to 120 [slow])

Input 2, step 3 - Speed 20 FWD (set speed step 20 in forward direction)

Input 2, step 4 - LINK 3

 

Input 3, step 1 - Delay 1/4 40 (delay 40 1/4 seconds [10 seconds])

Input 3, step 2 - Speed 0 FWD (set speed step 0)

Input 3, step 3 - Nop (no operation)

Input 3, step 4 - Nop

 

Now the program sets the acceleration CV to fast (as would be required when starting from a fiddle yard to bring the Loco quickly up to speed before entering the scenic section) and the deceleration CV to slow to give a prototypical slow down to a halt when entering the station. As you can see we have also sacrificed input 3 to extend the number of command steps.

 

If we now swap the CV values for CV3 and 4 and the direction of travel we can send the Loco back to the fiddle yard, accelerating slowly from the station and coming quickly to a halt in the fiddle yard. We'll also add a delay for the passengers to get on and off.

 

So continuing, Input 3 is now changed to -

 

Input 3, step 3 - Delay 1/4 80 (delay 80 1/4 seconds [20 seconds])

Input 3, step 4 - LINK 4

 

Input 4, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45)

Input 4, step 2 - CV 3 (acceleration CV)

 

Input 4, step 3 - CV Data 120 (sets acceleration CV3 to 120 [slow])

Input 4, step 4 - LINK 5

 

Input 5, step 1 - CV 4 (deceleration CV)

Input 5, step 2 - CV Data 5 (sets deceleration CV4 to 5 [fast])

Input 5, step 3 - Speed 20 REV (set speed step 20 in reverse direction)

Input 5, Step 4 - LINK 6

 

Input 6, Step 1 - Delay 1/4 40 (delay 40 1/4 seconds [10 seconds])

Input 6, Step 2 - Speed 0 FWD (set speed step 0)

Input 6, Step 3 - Nop

Input 6, Step 4 - Nop

 

For robustness Input 4, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45) is there just to make sure we change the CV's on the right Loco.

Obviously the delays would need to be set to suit the layout length.

 

Now if we add -

 

Input 6, Step 3 - Delay 1/4 80 (delay 80 1/4 seconds [20 seconds])

Input 6, Step 4 - LINK 1

 

we have an infinite loop, with the loco running back and forth every 20 seconds.

 

This is a very simplified program, the version on Camel Quay runs to 48 commands but it will give to something to think about.

 

The MinPanel is a very versatile device and this only just touches some of the commands available. The most powerful being the Skip command giving discision making, dependent on the state of an Input.

 

If you decide to go down this route and you need help with setting up the MiniPanel or Programming it, don't hesitate to get in touch.

 

Ray.

[cromptonnut]

This interests me, but I use Lenz equipment.  Is a suitable Lenz compatible alternative available?  I do have a USB interface and JMRI if that's another more complex option.

[tender]

This interests me, but I use Lenz equipment.  Is a suitable Lenz compatible alternative available?  I do have a USB interface and JMRI if that's another more complex option.

 

 

Sorry, the NCE Mini Panel only works with a NCE PowerCab or PowerPro system. I'm not aware of an equivalent for other systems.

[Mallard60022]

Ok Phil, firstly a bit of (simplified) background to how a NCE MiniPanel works.

As Ian said, the MiniPanel has 30 inputs.

Momentarily connecting one of these to 0volts (the supply GND on the MinPanel) sets off a sequence of 4 commands (steps) as determined by the program in the MiniPanel. You program the MiniPanel from the handset of a PowerCab or PowerPro system.

So, for Input 1 say.

 

Input 1, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45)

Input 1, step 2 - Speed 20 FWD (set speed step 20 in forward direction)

Input 1, step 3 - Delay 1/4 20 (delay 20 1/4 seconds [5 seconds])

Input 1, step 4 - Speed 0 FWD (set speed step 0)

 

Momentarily connecting pin 1 to 0volts will select Loco with address 45, accelerate it to speed 20 (as determined by the loco acceleration CV3) wait 5 seconds and then decelerate to speed 0 (as determined by the loco deceleration CV4)

 

Having only 4 commands per input can be limiting but by sacrificing Input 2 we can use these commands for Input 1, we do this with the LINK command.

 

So expanding on the above program

Input 1, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45)

Input 1, step 2 - CV 3 (acceleration CV)

Input 1, step 3 - CV Data 5 (sets acceleration CV3 to 5 [fast])

Input 1, step 4 - LINK 2

 

Input 2, step 1 - CV 4 (deceleration CV)

Input 2, step 2 - CV Data 120 (sets deceleration CV4 to 120 [slow])

Input 2, step 3 - Speed 20 FWD (set speed step 20 in forward direction)

Input 2, step 4 - LINK 3

 

Input 3, step 1 - Delay 1/4 40 (delay 40 1/4 seconds [10 seconds])

Input 3, step 2 - Speed 0 FWD (set speed step 0)

Input 3, step 3 - Nop (no operation)

Input 3, step 4 - Nop

 

Now the program sets the acceleration CV to fast (as would be required when starting from a fiddle yard to bring the Loco quickly up to speed before entering the scenic section) and the deceleration CV to slow to give a prototypical slow down to a halt when entering the station. As you can see we have also sacrificed input 3 to extend the number of command steps.

 

If we now swap the CV values for CV3 and 4 and the direction of travel we can send the Loco back to the fiddle yard, accelerating slowly from the station and coming quickly to a halt in the fiddle yard. We'll also add a delay for the passengers to get on and off.

 

So continuing, Input 3 is now changed to -

 

Input 3, step 3 - Delay 1/4 80 (delay 80 1/4 seconds [20 seconds])

Input 3, step 4 - LINK 4

 

Input 4, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45)

Input 4, step 2 - CV 3 (acceleration CV)

 

Input 4, step 3 - CV Data 120 (sets acceleration CV3 to 120 [slow])

Input 4, step 4 - LINK 5

 

Input 5, step 1 - CV 4 (deceleration CV)

Input 5, step 2 - CV Data 5 (sets deceleration CV4 to 5 [fast])

Input 5, step 3 - Speed 20 REV (set speed step 20 in reverse direction)

Input 5, Step 4 - LINK 6

 

Input 6, Step 1 - Delay 1/4 40 (delay 40 1/4 seconds [10 seconds])

Input 6, Step 2 - Speed 0 FWD (set speed step 0)

Input 6, Step 3 - Nop

Input 6, Step 4 - Nop

 

For robustness Input 4, step 1 - Sel Loco 45  (select Loco address 45) is there just to make sure we change the CV's on the right Loco.

Obviously the delays would need to be set to suit the layout length.

 

Now if we add -

 

Input 6, Step 3 - Delay 1/4 80 (delay 80 1/4 seconds [20 seconds])

Input 6, Step 4 - LINK 1

 

we have an infinite loop, with the loco running back and forth every 20 seconds.

 

This is a very simplified program, the version on Camel Quay runs to 48 commands but it will give to something to think about.

 

The MinPanel is a very versatile device and this only just touches some of the commands available. The most powerful being the Skip command giving discision making, dependent on the state of an Input.

 

If you decide to go down this route and you need help with setting up the MiniPanel or Programming it, don't hesitate to get in touch.

 

Ray.

Many thanks indeed Ray. You have made that quite clear initially.  I really appreciate your time. I will remember your offer.

Phil

[colin penfold]

Hi Phil,

 

I bought a unit from these people and it has worked well on test. 

 

http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/

 

Steven Heaton was very helpful by email making sure I got the unit I wanted (DC but with acceleration/deceleration) They have a few different units both DC and DCC

[cromptonnut]

Some interesting items on that site but I can't find any prices?

[colin penfold]

Some interesting items on that site but I can't find any prices?

You have to go to the ordering part of the site to see the prices. A bit clunky but i guess it makes updating it easier.

[colin penfold]

Actually, going back to the site to check my own memory, I now can't find any instructions for ordering or prices. I have dropped Steven an email and will update here when I get a reply. Some of his products were on Ebay, I wonder whether he is using that method alone. Anyhow, will let you know.

 

Incidentally I should have made the usual disclaimer - satisfied customer, no connection etc......

[cromptonnut]

Thank you, I was just scratching my head trying to find out a "how to order" page.  I've used the Heathcoate IRDOT units in the past for signals and would be interesting to hear how they compare pricewise.

 

I'd also be potentially looking at using them outdoors which is probably another added complication - lots of Maplin project boxes I guess...

[colin penfold]

I had this response from Steven at blocksignalling:

 

Hello Colin,

The shop is closed until Thursday this week as we are on holiday.

If you check back on Thursday, you will find the link to our shop has
returned to the website.

 

Thanks for your interest
 

[Nigelcliffe]

I bought a unit from these people and it has worked well on test. 

 

http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/

 

Steven Heaton was very helpful by email making sure I got the unit I wanted (DC but with acceleration/deceleration) They have a few different units both DC and DCC

Note that the BlockSignalling/Heaton design is a mini DCC system on a circuit board, so there must be NO connection between the shuttle track and the rest of the layout, NO chance of bridging from one system to another by running a train from one system to the other. (The instructions say that !).

 

Its fundamentally different to the NCE MiniPanel, which is a programmable throttle connected to the NCE system. And fundamentally different to using a computer to send instructions to a Lenz (or any other maker's) system.

 

I'm sure the BlockSignalling/Heaton design works as described, but just be clear about what it is.

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[colin penfold]

Note that the BlockSignalling/Heaton design is a mini DCC system on a circuit board, so there must be NO connection between the shuttle track and the rest of the layout, NO chance of bridging from one system to another by running a train from one system to the other. (The instructions say that !).

Its fundamentally different to the NCE MiniPanel, which is a programmable throttle connected to the NCE system. And fundamentally different to using a computer to send instructions to a Lenz (or any other maker's) system.

I'm sure the BlockSignalling/Heaton design works as described, but just be clear about what it is.

- Nigel

 

I am sure you have accurately described at least one of their modules, but there are many available in both DC and DCC

[Ray H]

Be aware that the mini-panel is designed to work (best) with push (to make [or break]) buttons or momentary contact switches.

 

It can be made to work with some conventional On-Off switches but that uses two inputs per switch and requires double throw switches so that it detects the On condition of each throw i.e. it doesn't readily detect the Off condition, it effectively treats one On condition as On and the other as Off.

[traction]

Note that the BlockSignalling/Heaton design is a mini DCC system on a circuit board, so there must be NO connection between the shuttle track and the rest of the layout, NO chance of bridging from one system to another by running a train from one system to the other. (The instructions say that !).

 

Its fundamentally different to the NCE MiniPanel, which is a programmable throttle connected to the NCE system. And fundamentally different to using a computer to send instructions to a Lenz (or any other maker's) system.

 

I'm sure the BlockSignalling/Heaton design works as described, but just be clear about what it is.

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

There is another system out there that is also it's own DCC system but will control a DCC shuttle option.

I'm always very concerned about this type of mix and match for exactly that reason, if you are using a DCC system to control the whole layout but have a small section where you want to use another DCC system to provide a shuttle, I can always see the potential risk of bridging the two different sections and causing damage to one or both of the DCC systems, or the loco.

 

For me I would either use the NCE mini panel if I were using NCE or use a decoder in the loco for ABC braking or even brake on DC, again noting that you will be switching DC on to an isolated section of track, although if this gets shorted out by a loco bridging the isolation gaps is this as bad or worse than having two different DCC systems possibly becoming shorted together?

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[malcolmt]

Hello,

 

I use Hornby Sapphire decoders on a branch line shuttle on a exhibition layout with great success. The Sapphire decoder has an event programming capability so programming a shuttle is very straight forward. Programming is based on time and speed. As my length of run is about 35 feet including a steep gradient so using micro switches etc. isn't feasible. I've installed the decoders in two Hornby WR railcars, a Hornby push pull set and a Heljan Park Royal railcar. Each is programmed to cover the 35 feet in about 60 seconds with a 20 second pause between each trip. Works very well. I set them up to run automatically while I go for lunch, walk around the show, run our main layout our work the crowd

 

Cheers,

 

Malcolm T

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

[ColinK]

I've been reading this with interest and with my next layout in mind. I do use a NCE ProCab.

 

From the above, could I have a branch shuttle (single car dmu in bay platform) using the Mini Panel, but with a train arriving on the main line passing over a IRDOT starting off the sequence for the branch shuttle to depart. If I put a momentary contact push button in parallel with the IRDOT then I could also start the branch shuttle automatically.

[Mallard60022]

Note that the BlockSignalling/Heaton design is a mini DCC system on a circuit board, so there must be NO connection between the shuttle track and the rest of the layout, NO chance of bridging from one system to another by running a train from one system to the other. (The instructions say that !).

 

Its fundamentally different to the NCE MiniPanel, which is a programmable throttle connected to the NCE system. And fundamentally different to using a computer to send instructions to a Lenz (or any other maker's) system.

 

I'm sure the BlockSignalling/Heaton design works as described, but just be clear about what it is.

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

That's useful. However my 'branch' is actually a loop off the main/fiddle (off scene) that appears in the station (on scene  ) and then stuff often ventures back on to the main lines. Both up and down mains in fact depending on shunts! BS/Heaton no good for this style obviously.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Hello,

 

I use Hornby Sapphire decoders on a branch line shuttle on a exhibition layout with great success. The Sapphire decoder has an event programming capability so programming a shuttle is very straight forward. Programming is based on time and speed. As my length of run is about 35 feet including a steep gradient so using micro switches etc. isn't feasible. I've installed the decoders in two Hornby WR railcars, a Hornby push pull set and a Heljan Park Royal railcar. Each is programmed to cover the 35 feet in about 60 seconds with a 20 second pause between each trip. Works very well. I set them up to run automatically while I go for lunch, walk around the show, run our main layout our work the crowd

 

Cheers,

 

Malcolm T

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

That sounds interesting matey. Thanks.

Phil

[traction]

I have a number of Hornby Sapphire decoders and have set up the ACC(auto-cycle-control function) on a few of them.

Luckily I have the Hornby Elite which has it's own dedicated "Sapphire" menu which means setting up is even easier than programming all of the CV's required for the ACC function.

 

As it's decoder specific I didn't mention it as not many people use the Sapphire due to the high price and physical size.

I've cut the 21 pin adapter socket off the decoder and filed that edge down as it drops the size by some 3-4mm.

I just soldered wires directly to the decoder, luckily no lighting involved so only the 4 wires to solder back on to the PCB.

 

Cheers

 

Ian